@ Nuclear:
Humans are only animals who kills others with no reason. When you're wild animal you are killing to prevail, to prove dominance. Not for fun, or for some ultimate personal gain (not as in territory for lions).
Some people find hope, and in their belief they can find happiness, does that makes them lesser people? You make it sounds like that. Just because you don't believe in anything, doesn't necessarily means that believing in sth is wrong. I was stating that some people people find hope in believe...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson
chiv wrote:
thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found.
Some people find hope, and in their belief they can find happiness, does that makes them lesser people? You make it sounds like that. Just because you don't believe in anything, doesn't necessarily means that believing in sth is wrong. I was stating that some people people find hope in believe...
When you consider the damage and wars that religion did and is causing, stupid people manipulation that can lead into terrorism and 72 virgins, the fact that their belief is as real as a magical unicorn that is standing behind you right now which is my belief (can you prove me wrong?), o motherfucking yes, we can do without that shit and MOVE ON!
Ok lets put it like this. I live my life. And if I die and there is god than I hopefully did the right things and if not, their is nothing wrong that my religion is forcing me to do. But I don't understand radicals. Most of you guys are as radical atheists/agnostics as the fanatic religious people are. Just without weapons You call people dumb and say that all religious stuff is shit and crap. Infact it shouldn't even bother you guys what another guy believes Believing or not believing is something private. I believe that people should not brag in what they belive.
---
"I am an atheist. I am so cool because I have science behind me. Ok they might not be able to tell if there is a god or not but most of the scientists are pretty sure that there is none."
"I am a believer. I am so cool because I have god behind me. He has his own ways and we are not capable to understand everything. We have our books that prove that we are right."
(and there are the ones like chin fe. who believe in something that is not god and that I am not able to describe because I always did some fast forward when he tried to explain it not that I'm not respecting it, it was just shiiiit long )
---
as you can see, their is no big difference.
And the only thing we know for SURE is that we can't prove that their is no god. As much as nobody can prove that their IS god. Thats why it is called believing Either you do or you do not. And to say "there cant be no god because this scientist found out this and that" etc. is no valid point either. If their is god and he is almighty, why should he be bound to our physics, morals, time and everything else?
And because all of this nobody can say that he is on the right side or not.
Respect each other, thats the only thing I can tell you guys Live and let live. Pretty easy
Btw. that was the thing I didn't like about religilous. I liked it when he showed that people are misusing their religion for their own profits and stuff. I also liked it when he asked questions that made the people realize that they just believed because they were told to believe.
But what I didn't like about him was that he tried to force his own believes on the people he was talking to. He did the same thing, that the other "bad" guys did.
He doesn't know for sure either but for exampe he wanted the people to say that believing in virgin birth is pure fiction. Who knows that it is fiction? Who can prove it? It wouldn't have been called wonder if it would have been something that you could explain right? You can't prove a wonder to be wrong or it wouldn't have been a wonder.
So the only thing he wanted to say is that there were no wonders and that it would be absurd to believe in them. Yeah you might be able to prove it with our knowledge, that their couldn't have been wonders. But can you be sure that these wonders are bound to things we are used to?
@ Nuclear:
Humans are only animals who kills others with no reason. When you're wild animal you are killing to prevail, to prove dominance. Not for fun, or for some ultimate personal gain (not as in territory for lions).
Some people find hope, and in their belief they can find happiness, does that makes them lesser people? You make it sounds like that. Just because you don't believe in anything, doesn't necessarily means that believing in sth is wrong. I was stating that some people people find hope in believe...
if a 10 year old children still believes in santa claus, other children will make fun of him at school, his parents will become concerned to why does he still believes in something he should have stop believing some 2 years ago.
children may be irresponsible and impulsive, but they also are extremely logical and truthful, when a children perceives that something is wrong, an adult tends to make a irrational excuse to justify to the kid why things have to be some way.
I brought this up because of the following, it is good to believe in something when there's room for debate, for example, I believe that some alien civilization must exist but they are to far away to ever know about us, some other people believe that some alien civiliization often visits us, there is room for debate in a subject like this, because it is something rational and plausible, when talking about god, you are talking about something that transcends the universe, and then mix it with moral issues which are nothing more than some human instinct to preserve the feeling of security and goodness, that, once again, are nothing more than human perceptions, if we had an infinite amount of resources, it wouldn't be amoral to steal, if we couldn't feel pain, it wouldn't be amoral to torture, if our consciences could be transfer to another medium, it wouldn't be amoral to kill, it's nothing more than a matter of circumstance and guarantee that everything you don't want done to you or the ones you love to be done to anyone else.
But morality wouldn't exist without animals or humans, there is no good or evil, good and evil is what we as a society define.
Which brings us to the question of happiness, you claim that if religion makes a person happy and that he or she isn't a fanatic, there is no problem whatsoever, well, I think otherwise, because in a time of emotional fragility, a person is able to do pretty much everything, and not saying that atheists are immune to going on rampage in an emotional breakdown, but religious people will always find a justification in the realm of their beliefs to do the most irrational, violent and stupid things possible.
Last edited by Ronhrin on Sat, 17th Jan 2009 00:52; edited 1 time in total
And I believe that pink magical Unicorns exist, when every living creature is born it gets one and it protects you, you can only see your own unicorn a shame it turns invisible when you try to look at it though it is usually behind you but don't look to much, he is invisible so not much to see anyway, you might piss him off and he will stick that pointy thing up your ass, don't speak it's name to much either, be nice to him and he will protect you and give you gifts in ways you will never notice them so every good random thing that happens to you is actually His doing, as far as your dumb ass knows anyway.
O glory to the Pink Unicorn!
p.s.
I am the grand master, you can give your money to me if you wish and I will give them later to your respectable Unicorns, giving money to me first pleases them immensely don't ask me why.
And I believe that pink magical Unicorns exist, when every living creature is born it gets one and it protects you, you can only see your own unicorn a shame it turns invisible when you try to look at it though it is usually behind you but don't look to much, he is invisible so not much to see anyway, you might piss him off and he will stick that pointy thing up your ass, don't speak it's name to much either, be nice to him and he will protect you and give you gifts in ways you will never notice them so every good random thing that happens to you is actually His doing, as far as your dumb ass knows anyway.
O glory to the Pink Unicorn!
p.s.
I am the grand master, you can give your money to me if you wish and I will give them later to your respectable Unicorns, giving money to me first pleases them immensely don't ask me why.
he was a religious nut before his major work, probably from the traumatic experience of watching his parents die Oh, that and because he liked a book the Narnia guy wrote
I don't think a scientist being religious is any more credible, he just happens to be afraid of dying as well.
Indeed Francis Collins while no doubt a brilliant man is sadly had a tragic loss that made him a bit insecure. However being in his position even he doesn't reject evolution which is clearly incompatible with his christian beliefs. He simply believes because it makes him feel better about the past.
Though what theists seem to really fail to realize is that your place of birth and uprising is generally the most dominate effect on what religion the person grows up believing. If Francis Collins was born and lived in Afghanistan after what happened to his parents he would find Allah. If he was in India he would have found Brahma. Its just as easy to find Yeshua as it is to find Zeus.
1. He is a theistic evolutionist this contradicts the story of Genesis.
2. He did not become a Christian because of the evidence, rather due to the death's of his patients. One could ask how strong was his disbelief if all it took was the death of his patients to convert him?
Oh BTW I was a Christian for 15 years before losing my belief so I know what it is too be religious.
you are talking about god as a ethics teacher and a Earth life creator, but ultimately the true notion of god is the creator of all things in existence, so your aliens would also had to be created by it, some people say that life on this planet was created by some alien civilization and that they created the main religions to guide us morally, but that is just another forceful attempt trying to make god fit in, even if that could be somehow true, it has noting to do with the traditional creator of all things that many people so strongly believe.
Well if that God created everything and the universe as well who created him? No let me guess he lived forever or better yet he created himself before he even existed those religious cots get so ticked off about "well who created this and that if you don't believe in God" but again they never question who created their God did he have a father and mother God, doesn't make sense, if everything is created by somebody than I'd like to hear them explain who created their God.
What if God created time?
What if eternity isn't endless time but a ceasing of it?
If God existed in eternity before time, he needs no beginning.
When did God create time? In the beginning. . .
Now that will give you a head ache.
1 stripe purple belt in JiuJitsu (good grief this takes FOREVER hahah)
Honestly, i believe that scientists should believe in god. If science was done in favor of god, then church would allow further technological advances. since state and church go hand in hand, it doesn't work. I mean, imagine if some scientist said that in smart tone, took a sentence from the bible, made it seem like god meant for us all to travel vast distances... and that earth is just an iota of gods intelligence and finding life on other planets meant god was real, then we'd be in venus by now. Nasa is part of USA. Usa is god = state. Any life on any planet will be dismissed. Regardless of how authentic and genuine it is.
Scientists should belive in god, because selling out HELPS A FUCKING SHITLOAD. Cure for cancer? Jesus cured the blind, we were meant to find a cure for cancer. Smartest people on the planet are the dumbest. State won't allow anything that the church wont allow. Moon, yeah, a fucking rock in the sky. Mars, we're pushing it. Other planets, we're pushing it.
I'm starting to believe that many of the 'shuttle' accidents were caused by the church and state. Wasn't some shuttle long ago working on a cure for something, and when it came down, it burst into flames. I mean come the fuck on.
Church - State - Atheism are both fucking extremes.
Why can't each side work together? So much would be accomplished.
The atheists can manipulate the church and state get funding.
The church and state benefit from atheists founding.
Like wtf. We discovered gravity, atomic bombs, nuclear fusion or fission and we can't manipulate brainwashed people who believe god created time, space, and everything?
Ps. God didn't create time. His father did.
His father created the universe, time, gravity, and humor.
God merely took his fathers project to school and got an A+
Infinite wisdom, endless time, infinite cosmos, etc etc etc etc.
If you look at it. religion is as stupid as science fiction and science fiction is the founding father of modern science.
If both sides worked together... we'd be so far ahead of anything beyond our imagination.
But both sides are meant to fight against each other. Which is bullshit.
Accept god, accept space travel.
Accept god, accept good health.
accept god, accept peace.
accept god, accept unified theory of (insert sci-fi name here)
accept god, accept freedom.
FFS. The smartest people on the fucking planet, get funding from normal people like you and I. Imagine the funding they would get if state and church were part of it. Not only funding but support. Even if you spin it correctly, other life on other planets can be gods will.
Honestly, i believe that scientists should believe in god. If science was done in favor of god, then church would allow further technological advances. since state and church go hand in hand, it doesn't work. I mean, imagine if some scientist said that in smart tone, took a sentence from the bible, made it seem like god meant for us all to travel vast distances... and that earth is just an iota of gods intelligence and finding life on other planets meant god was real, then we'd be in venus by now. Nasa is part of USA. Usa is god = state. Any life on any planet will be dismissed. Regardless of how authentic and genuine it is.
Scientists should belive in god, because selling out HELPS A FUCKING SHITLOAD. Cure for cancer? Jesus cured the blind, we were meant to find a cure for cancer. Smartest people on the planet are the dumbest. State won't allow anything that the church wont allow. Moon, yeah, a fucking rock in the sky. Mars, we're pushing it. Other planets, we're pushing it.
I'm starting to believe that many of the 'shuttle' accidents were caused by the church and state. Wasn't some shuttle long ago working on a cure for something, and when it came down, it burst into flames. I mean come the fuck on.
Church - State - Atheism are both fucking extremes.
Why can't each side work together? So much would be accomplished.
The atheists can manipulate the church and state get funding.
The church and state benefit from atheists founding.
Like wtf. We discovered gravity, atomic bombs, nuclear fusion or fission and we can't manipulate brainwashed people who believe god created time, space, and everything?
Ps. God didn't create time. His father did.
His father created the universe, time, gravity, and humor.
God merely took his fathers project to school and got an A+
Infinite wisdom, endless time, infinite cosmos, etc etc etc etc.
If you look at it. religion is as stupid as science fiction and science fiction is the founding father of modern science.
If both sides worked together... we'd be so far ahead of anything beyond our imagination.
But both sides are meant to fight against each other. Which is bullshit.
Accept god, accept space travel.
Accept god, accept good health.
accept god, accept peace.
accept god, accept unified theory of (insert sci-fi name here)
accept god, accept freedom.
FFS. The smartest people on the fucking planet, get funding from normal people like you and I. Imagine the funding they would get if state and church were part of it. Not only funding but support. Even if you spin it correctly, other life on other planets can be gods will.
I hope I am missing the humor here and this is satire..
1. He is a theistic evolutionist this contradicts the story of Genesis.
2. He did not become a Christian because of the evidence, rather due to the death's of his patients. One could ask how strong was his disbelief if all it took was the death of his patients to convert him?
Oh BTW I was a Christian for 15 years before losing my belief so I know what it is too be religious.
Just because your not Christian doesn't mean you don't have beliefs or ideas.
I received the 3 sacraments (baptism, first communion and confirmation). Was raised Roman Catholic etc But because of having to read the Bible a good few times from front to back, I realized it was bullshit. Well, rather, not fact. And then I studied other religions of the Mediterranean, religions and belief systems that predate Christianity by thousands of years and then how Christianity came to be the "main" religion and it led me to believe that Christianity is a compilation of various other older, Egyptian religions.
But I still believed in a supreme being and such. And studied numerous numerous religions and beliefs systems and found beliefs (rather, i call them ideas) that made sense. Of course none are provable or based on fact, every religion or belief system is myth but its my choice to believe or agree with what I want.
I don't consider myself religious, I am spiritual. But I also believe in science. I believe that one day science will be able to explain almost everything. But I do believe in a supreme being because some things aren't explainable and even scientists will agree will with this.
Most things can be quantified, but some can't...no matter if it's now or 1000 years from now, some things can't be quantified using science. Again, scientist's agree with this so it's not my own personal belief.
Just because your not Christian doesn't mean you don't have beliefs or ideas.
I think you have misinterpreted me. I hold the belief that God's existence is a speculative hypothesis of an extremely low order of probability.
SycoShaman wrote:
Christianity is a compilation of various other older, Egyptian religions.
Link to back up your claim.
SycoShaman wrote:
But I still believed in a supreme being and such. And studied numerous numerous religions and beliefs systems and found beliefs (rather, i call them ideas) that made sense. Of course none are provable or based on fact, every religion or belief system is myth but its my choice to believe or agree with what I want.
Exactly believe in what you want to believe if it makes you happy.
SycoShaman wrote:
I don't consider myself religious, I am spiritual. But I also believe in science. I believe that one day science will be able to explain almost everything. But I do believe in a supreme being because some things aren't explainable and even scientists will agree will with this.
Most things can be quantified, but some can't...no matter if it's now or 1000 years from now, some things can't be quantified using science. Again, scientist's agree with this so it's not my own personal belief.
I have heard those same words from the craziest of Fundies. Its also a major flaw in your logic as well e.g If X can't be explained then Y must be the answer, Every natural phenomenon can and should be explained. Also which scientists agree with this?
And I believe that pink magical Unicorns exist, when every living creature is born it gets one and it protects you, you can only see your own unicorn a shame it turns invisible when you try to look at it though it is usually behind you but don't look to much, he is invisible so not much to see anyway, you might piss him off and he will stick that pointy thing up your ass, don't speak it's name to much either, be nice to him and he will protect you and give you gifts in ways you will never notice them so every good random thing that happens to you is actually His doing, as far as your dumb ass knows anyway.
O glory to the Pink Unicorn!
p.s.
I am the grand master, you can give your money to me if you wish and I will give them later to your respectable Unicorns, giving money to me first pleases them immensely don't ask me why.
That reminds me of (at around 5:16)
OMG we can all see this guys Unicorn! You know what that means, he must be the new messiah! Plus he sees himself riding it as the prophecy said it would happen, from the Holy Book found in the stable: "Thou the new Messiah shall see himself ride the Unicorn that shall then turn White"
But morality wouldn't exist without animals or humans, there is no good or evil, good and evil is what we as a society define.
That's right, morality wouldn't exist without humans! We are the "intelligent" species on this planet, we define us and define what makes us going on, whether god or science, but if we have set some rules that define good and bad, morality and such how can you say what's good or bad in real? The fact is that even before the modern world, people on different places did the same things (good or bad). So there could be some unconscious realm which connects us (?). Which governs us. I don't know why should religiousness or spirituality would be bad. When you abuse it then it becomes bad.
How can you explain that nearly all (or all) of past civilization believed in sth? Whether Sun and the Moon, Oziris and Izida, Jesus or Krishna. The people obviously need to believe in something greater then them. I don't know if that's because we choose not to be responsible for our actions and then say: Oh the ''god'' made it. Or it's sth else. Maybe as we develop (and evolve) we can shake off that need for sth bigger.
I wasn't raised as Christian, I choose that believe because all of my friends in the first grade went to catechism (my parents christened me because it was such trend). Then when I started to go to high school I found history facts, and some things about Christianity and church that I didn't like so I rejected that believe system. I know that my children will be able to choose when the time comes.
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson
chiv wrote:
thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found.
I'm 6.5, aka. Agnostic Atheist. I have a total lack of belief in a god and believe it to be a human construction, but I can't prove it (just like you can't really prove that on the other side of the universe there aren't a race of aliens looking like Cadillacs that eat sulphuric acid for sustenance) and I'm not spending any time trying to disprove the existence of something I lack belief in.
Maybe the "force or power" that initiated the big bang and all the big bangs before that can be called "God" by some, but then...how created God in the 1st place, and what created that etc etc.
Makes you wanna crawl back in to your cave and whimper just thinking about it. I guess in situations like that...a smaller, caring and intervening God makes sense...for some .
<snippy>
FFS. The smartest people on the fucking planet, get funding from normal people like you and I. Imagine the funding they would get if state and church were part of it. Not only funding but support. Even if you spin it correctly, other life on other planets can be gods will.
If you give the Church power to fund stuff, you'll eventually end up doing things for the church. And the problem with that is, the Church will have you do things according to it's agenda. Yay religious wars, or witch hunts, or whatever they're up to next.
If you keep the State in control and enlist the Church to provide warm bodies for State work, then that's no too much different than things are now. The military still runs the joint, but companies have to compete with religion to get government contracts.
The best thing for human progress, is still sadly, war. Better (i suppose) to fight for rational resource & objective based goals, rather than purging unbelievers.
(Unless of course that was all satire like the guy was hoping )
1. Strong Theist: I do not question the existence of God, I KNOW he exists.
2. De-facto Theist: I cannot know for certain but I strongly believe in God and I live my life on the assumption that he is there.
3. Weak Theist: I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.
4. Pure Agnostic: God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.
5. Weak Atheist: I do not know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical.
6. De-facto Atheist: I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable and I live my life under the assumption that he is not there.
7. Strong Atheist: I am 100% sure that there is no God.
I guess Dawkins is a 8 on this chart. Me, I guess a strong 6
I guess I'm none of those
if you're talking about the religious god then I say it's 100% bollocks
if you're talking about a king like god who's a superior conscious being but surprisingly acts like an arrogant king's 5 years old son then I say it's all human made
if the universe itself is conscious then I don't know and the truth is nobody has any answer and just theories and speculations , some might be right but there might be another truth out there
fact is there's no higher being that wants us to live like this or like that , universe doesn't care what you do or don't , only other humans do.
what I do agree with dawkins is that scientific research is the only way to solid fact, sure it's a slow process but it's about damn time humans stopped being so impatient and creating fantasies and stories about our origins.
I hate extreme atheists more than I hate radical extreme religious fanatics. Why? Because it is unfair that they bash someone's beliefs. Im an atheist myself, but I am cool with letting everyone get on with their own life and what they believe in..
It pisses me off when people like Pat Condell go out of their way to rip the piss out of religious people for the sake of being atheist. Yeah I think every religion on earth is a pile of BS; but I dont rub peoples noses in their own shit.
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Believing or not believing is something private. I believe that people should not brag in what they belive.
it is usually behind you but don't look to much, he is invisible so not much to see anyway, you might piss him off and he will stick that pointy thing up your ass, don't speak it's name to much either, be nice to him and he will protect you and give you gifts in ways you will never notice them so every good random thing that happens to you is actually His doing, as far as your dumb ass knows anyway.
Oh, that and because he liked a book the Narnia guy wrote 
)
