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Posted: Tue, 12th Feb 2008 16:38 Post subject: |
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Excuse me for going a little out of topic, but which MOO in your opinion is the best? I read some mixed reviews on MOO 3, tho I've never played a game of the MOO series.
Blame! don't act!
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Posted: Tue, 12th Feb 2008 22:05 Post subject: |
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Posted: Wed, 13th Feb 2008 18:55 Post subject: |
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Hellbeans wrote: | Excuse me for going a little out of topic, but which MOO in your opinion is the best? I read some mixed reviews on MOO 3, tho I've never played a game of the MOO series. |
Personally, i love MOO2 the most, tho MOO1 has its charm as well.
MOO3 was the game that made me avoid anything that is not yet complete. I spent two years following its development, saw features promised then the whole game getting torn apart into little pieces until only the bare basics stayed in the final version.
I still had faith then and started an initiative to collect the bugs in the game into a comprehensive, easy to read list for the devs to make them easier to fix, along with my own classification on how sever the issue is in my opinion. Known as the Ultimate bug collection.
Quite interestingly it lived a long life even after i stopped updating it. I'm proud to have been part of that community, even though the fact that the company behind the game disbanded sucks.
Take a look if you want a piece of moo3 history.
http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289267
So the answer to your question again is: MOO2
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Posted: Wed, 13th Feb 2008 19:13 Post subject: |
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sabalasa wrote: |
The only part I do not agree so easily is the AI always cheat part. I mean the AI has always the edge in micromanagement. The machine can do so many calculations no human being will ever be able to do and thus it will adjust the micromanagement sliders basically every turn in such way that the end result will be most efficient. Now..if a human being owns more than 4 resources he must micromanage every turn he will lose control and just hope for the best. That I do not consider cheating because a human theoretically can do this as well It doesn't matter whether all these calculations would take hours to complete but all in all that's not a hidden feature. And the complexity algorithms of micromanagement is as far I can see the best way how to make the AI unbeatable and explainable how the hell can he have such a huge fleet against my 2 unarmed scouts Add aggressive diplomacy, spying and optimal research to the mix and you have a formula for "extremely hard" AI to beat.
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There is your problem. Micromanagement does not require creativity, merely a good enough memory to know what you are doing and where you are doing it. Plus a fast hand with good hand-eye coordination to transfer your thoughts from your mind to the PC.
The CPU might be faster in that than you are, it sure has more memory than you do, but it is not micromanagement that will win a battle. Actually, in some game it is.. like in WC3, where success relies heavily on the use of certain abilities you have to manage yourself, but generally overall victory will be determined by strategy and tactics. Those however are far too complex for a CPU player to calculate in the time they have for it in an avarage game.
So unless you want the CPU think minutes on its next move every time, then you have to face tha fact, that with today's computing technology, the only AI that will give you even a hint of a challenge is an AI that cheats.
I am waiting for the day, when advanced artificial intelligence with learning capabilities will be fairly common in computing - just as much as im afraid of the same day - but until that day comes, you have to either stay for turn based games where the AI has the luxury of time in thinking, or better off.. stick to multiplayer games, where you can play against real human intelligence with no enforced handicaps or bonuses.
Sure, if an AI cheats too much, it quickly gets unbeatable, but i tell you what.. i spend hours playing MP games with a friend, trying to beat supreme commander AIs, that have infinit resources and infinite vision. Did i ever win? Hell no i didnt, but i've learned more through those games than i ever did in playing against any other regular AI in that game.
Hell i've gone from dead in 5 minutes to staying alive for an hour before getting overwhelmed, simply because constant challenge forced me to find newer and better ways to do what i do. Obviously, after a point there is no way you can improve any further, and then you have to face the fact, that the AI just cheats too much for you to beat it. Still.. i would rather play an AI that cheats like there is no tomorrow but packs a punch and keeps me on my toes, hell even defeats me all the time, than to play one i can just walk through without any effort after having played it once.
Same goes for playing with people. Maybe its me being wrong, but i actually like losing, as there is always something new to learn in losing whereas in winning you might not be able to tell if you did anything wrong.
In other words: It is easy to believe you did everything fine, when you've won, but you can't deny that you are flawed if you lose. Truth of life: we are all flawed and there is no hope to ever achieve flawlessness. The best we can hope for is to learn from our mistakes and never make the same mistakes again. Its just that we will never run out of new mistakes to make 
Last edited by csebal on Wed, 13th Feb 2008 19:16; edited 1 time in total
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Ispep
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Posted: Wed, 13th Feb 2008 19:14 Post subject: |
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Quote: | In GalCiv even the devs confirmed in the end that their AI was so weak so they pumped it up with having more planets in the beginning, no fog of war and higher level of research. |
Where do you get this from ???
Besides, that doesn't really constitute 'cheating' even if it were true imo. It's an abstraction of intelligence that can be rationalised. Do you know of any competent AI that doesn't cheat (as you seem to be so opposed to the concept)? I can sympathise with your position as it's an ideal I share but I'd much rather square up against a competitive opponent in singleplayer than a stupid bot that resembles a 3 year old tapping away at the keyboard. It's just one of those things - and GalCiv series has a very competitive and (in my opinion more importantly) engaging AI.
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Posted: Wed, 13th Feb 2008 20:30 Post subject: |
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the ai in sins dont cheat, someone on the forums tried to claim the ai cheated in one of there games and a dev asked for the games replay because ai are never suposed to do anything that a player cant to get an advantage
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Posted: Wed, 13th Feb 2008 22:01 Post subject: |
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Posted: Wed, 13th Feb 2008 22:20 Post subject: |
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Ispep
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Posted: Wed, 13th Feb 2008 22:58 Post subject: |
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Quote: | In one of the threads the devs went like...OOOPS it has been like this since galciv1 and no one noticed |
You're taking their comments out of context; "Like I said, it's been this way for years and no one (including us) noticed it." - At a glance it seems to be an anomaly in the code that they weren't aware of which grants the AI an extra turn at the beginning of a game - and in that same thread is a fix for it!
Your other thread relates to higher difficulty ratings - on the lower (just as challenging and engaging) difficulty ratings they don't, to the best of my knowledge, receive these bonuses - it's only when you crank up the difficulty that they get them.
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Posted: Thu, 14th Feb 2008 05:00 Post subject: |
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That's true. In GalCiv2, the AI cheats only on the hardest difficulties, simply because technology can't allow for a smarter AI. But even without cheating, GalCiv2's AI is pretty formidable.
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Ispep
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Posted: Thu, 14th Feb 2008 11:00 Post subject: |
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sabalasa wrote: | Have you noticed the date when it was [DISCOVERED] & fixed and when galciv2 went gold? |
Fixed the above comment
Quote: | Let's drop the issue and move along
OH...BTW this thread is all about SSE and not galciv
We are way off topic already! |
My original question was sincere, so I'm not arguing with you. To the best of my knowledge the AI in GalCiv doesn't cheat and the evidence you've provided doesn't go against that. I just wanted to clear up what you said and was curious as to whether you were right or not.
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Posted: Thu, 14th Feb 2008 14:45 Post subject: |
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sabalasa wrote: | OK
Now then...
AI cannot backstab you - thus AI does not cheat.
AI does gain access to information that the human does not (no fog of war, tech trading etc) - is that cheating or bumping up the "competitiveness" of AI? That's subjective  |
wiki wrote: |
A golf handicap is a numerical measure of an amateur golfer's playing ability. It can be used to calculate a net score from the number of strokes actually played, thus allowing players of different proficiency to play against each other on somewhat equal terms. Handicaps are administrated by golf clubs or national golf associations. Exact rules relating to handicaps can vary from country to country.
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Now you wouldnt call that amateur to be cheating, just because he gets it easier would you? He is simply getting an advantage so that they can still get a competitive match.
Consider the AI "cheating" to be the same thing. Its not like the AI is doing things without asking you first. You set its level of AI advanteges by selecting the difficulty settings when starting a game. You dont want it to "cheat", simply ignore the difficulty settings from which it gets an advantage.
I really dont know whats the big deal about it. Not like the AI has much of a chance either way.. In most games you have to take on multiple teamed AIs to get an even remotely challenging experience, and that with cheating turned on..
In civ4, people beat sid level games and on that level the ai "cheats" like there is no tomorrow.. yet people still beat them.. on the normal difficulty level, prince i think, the last level where there is no cheating involved, the AI is so ridiculously easy to play, that it just isnt fun.
Same goes for RTS games as well, where without the extra resource bonuses and visibility the AI gets on higher difficulty levels, it simply is no match for human intelligence.
Bottomline: There is not cheating AI, merely handicapped human players.
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Posted: Thu, 14th Feb 2008 15:22 Post subject: |
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Posted: Thu, 14th Feb 2008 15:46 Post subject: |
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Posted: Fri, 15th Feb 2008 02:27 Post subject: |
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Yeah I don't like fighting the AI they run too much, multiplayer is where its at.
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Posted: Fri, 15th Feb 2008 05:16 Post subject: |
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Posted: Fri, 15th Feb 2008 06:06 Post subject: |
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upstart_69
Posts: 1094
Location: Right behind you!
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Posted: Sat, 16th Feb 2008 00:37 Post subject: |
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Blake_Stone wrote: | I'm finally getting the hang of it, although the AI can be quite frustrating. They seem to flee most of the time (sometimes with more ships) and I start chasing them half-way across the solar system / galaxy. Other then that is a ok game , Imperium Galactica however is still my nr1 game  |
Yeah this is being addressed in patch 1.03 which is due soon, here's the quote:
Quote: | We hope to get v1.03 out by the end of the month (no promises though). Ironclad (and Stardock) are pretty exhausted from the final weeks of effort and the first week of launch so resting will be done.
So think of v1.03 as a few key tweaks that you think would really make the game more enjoyable not just for you but other people.
Here's an example of things we're talking about right now:
* Updated AI players
* More Game Speed Options
* More aggressive AI players replacing dropped players (i.e. active AI)
* AI surrendering
* Improvements to ICO
* Unit cap increases
We have lots of ideas. But the key thing to remember, we want to get 1.03 out this month if possible. So sure, we can all imagine things like random events or fancier diplomacy or other things of that nature but those would take far too long to get into the game.
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BTW, did I mention how much my love for stardock is lately? If not, I will say it again. And it's not without its reasons. Just another one to add to the many: They shipped me not just the one copy I ordered, but TWO copies of the collector's edition. I am guessing because I had them switch my serial to my other already existing account. A screw-up obviously, but a good one in this rare case. 
Core i7 920 @ 3.8Ghz | 6GB OCZ DDR3 8-8-8-24 @ 1600mhz | eVga x58 Mobo | 2 x eVga GTX 460 SLI | Intel X25-M + 3x Seagate + WD Black = 2.75TB | X-Fi Titanium | PCP&C Silencer 750 | G15 KB | G5 Mouse | G35 Headset | Z-5500 Digital | Samsung T260HD
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Posted: Sat, 15th Mar 2008 15:05 Post subject: |
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1.03 patch out! And the official forums are ofcourse down so I have noone to talk to about it
Shortlist highlights (my picks):
Spoiler: |
Gameplay / Balance:
-Game options screen! Fleet size! Yay
-New Market system (fluctuations and market crash/boom)
-Improved Group Phase Jumping
-Research subjects queued in different fields can now upgrade in parallel.
-Can't attack unbuilt structures anymore.
-You can now change game options when loading save games.
-Mission durations increased by 10 mins.
-Mission failure penalties to happiness reduced.
-Phase Jump Inhibitors: jump charge rate penalty increase from -250% to -700%.
AI:
-AI now knows how to surrender (based on time elapsed, relative economy, relative fleet value, resource reserves, and allied strength). Also, an AI player will not surrender if he has a human ally.
-AI is now smarter about retreating and is willing to commit local suicide or accept local Phyrric victories if the global gain is higher and will also factor in local allied forces.
-Fixed various AI researching and building stall outs for the various trees (military in particular).
-Rewrote AI siege building and attack logic.
-Improved AI use of Black Market.
-Autocast for many disabling abilities improved.
-New AI Difficulty "Unfair" that gives the AI a tax income bonus and resource income bonus from resource asteroids (there is no other AI cheating in the game even at the Unfair difficulty level).
-Wide variety of AI upgrades.
-Improve AI taunting.
Networking / Multiplayer:
-AI will now take over for dropped players.
-You no longer have to kill all a dropped player's planets to win even when the AI takes over for him.
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Unfortunately missing are fleet improvements, so I guess I still won't use them.
But the new AI is pretty good. I haven't seen it run away yet, mostly due to it kicking my ass and winning the game I just played.
Full changelist (with thanks to google cache)
Spoiler: |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sins of a Solar Empire v1.03 Changelist
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Gameplay / Balance:
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-New Game Options Screen:
-Locked/Unlocked Teams
-Fleet Size
-Pirates or No Pirates (arrrr!)
-Income Rate Speed
-Build Speed
-Ship Speed
-Research Speed
-Culture Speed
***REMINDER***
-In singleplayer you can accelerate / deccelerate time by pressing the +/- buttons respectively. I'm mentionning it again because this request is coming up a lot even though it was implemented in the v1.02 patch.
-New Market System:
Highlights:
-Random fluctuations in addition to user influence on price.
-Can cause crash or boom by selling/buying too much.
-Known exploits removed.
-Can now buy and sell resources on the market in large increments again.
-Improved Group Phase Jumping for large groups of ships. The group will only wait for 90% of the value of the ships to be ready. The stragglers will follow shortly after. Typically, its only a couple ships that cause the whole operation to stall so this should eliminate the majority of problems.
-Research subjects queued in different fields can now upgrade in parallel.
-Overseer's Nanite Reactive Armor ability can now properly stack heals (but not the armor and max HP bonus).
-Kostura Cannon now only disables enemy units and structures at the target planet as originally intended.
-Autocast for many disabling abilities improved.
-Disciple's Transfer Antimatter no longer targets other Disciples when autocasting.
-Transfer Antimatter can no longer target entities with full antimatter.
-Can't attack unbuilt structures anymore.
-You can now change game options when loading save games.
-Defeated players can no longer give or be given resources in unlocked teams games.
-Defeated players can no longer place bounties in unlocked teams games.
-Fixed unintended halving of galaxy culture coverage in the game statistics. Pop Idol achievement is now actually achievable.
-No pirate maps removed due to new game option to remove pirates.
-Large and Huge random maps split into single and multi star system variants.
-Mission durations increased by 10 mins.
-Mission failure penalties to happiness reduced.
-Rebalanced happiness losses for killing various items (Killing enemy scouts no longer causes a loss of happiness).
-Phase Jump Inhibitors:
-cost reduced slightly.
-slot cost reduced from 3 to 2.
-jump charge rate penalty increase from -250% to -700%.
-Passive allegiance shift rates increased by 100%.
-Allegiance shift rates from culture increased 25%.
-Illuminator, Javelis, Assailant:
-Increased credit cost by approx 10%.
-Increased resource cost by approx 20%.
-Increased range by approx 30%.
-Illuminator and Assailant survivability tuned to be proportional to Javelis's on a per supply basis.
-Siege Frigates:
-Survivability reduced by ~20%.
-Build cost increased by ~25%.
-Supply cost increased from 12 to 15.
-Development Mandate research subject's max level reduced from 2 to 1.
-Tier 1 research times increased approx 40%
-Tier 2 research times increased approx 20%
-All other tiers research times increased 5%
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Graphics:
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-Fixed sometimes drastic frame rate drop when chat messages are displayed.
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Sound / Music:
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-Sins handles no soundcard now.
-Added sound option for varying music vol in battle.
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AI:
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-AI now knows how to surrender (based on time elapsed, relative economy, relative fleet value, resource reserves, and allied strength). Also, an AI player will not surrender if he has a human ally.
-AI is now smarter about retreating and is willing to commit local suicide or accept local Phyrric victories if the global gain is higher and will also factor in local allied forces.
-Fixed various AI researching and building stall outs for the various trees (military in particular).
-Rewrote AI siege building and attack logic.
-Improved AI use of Black Market.
-Autocast for many disabling abilities improved.
-New AI Difficulty "Unfair" that gives the AI a tax income bonus and resource income bonus from resource asteroids (there is no other AI cheating in the game even at the Unfair difficulty level).
-Wide variety of AI upgrades.
-Improve AI taunting.
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Networking / Multiplayer:
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-AI will now take over for dropped players.
-You no longer have to kill all a dropped player's planets to win even when the AI takes over for him.
-Unified the in-game and ico chat system. They now share the same irc/wow like commands. Full autocomplete with tab/shift-tab. Autocomplete will attempt to either complete the name field or cycle through the available names.
<command> <name> <message>
Commands:
<none>: send to all
in-game: send to all human players in game.
ico: send to all players in current lobby
/w: whisper
in-game: if player is in game, uses the game chat system (will be recorded), otherwise go through ico.
ico: send directly to player (even if playing a game). tab autocomplete will cycle through all players in channel.
/a: send to all allies
in-game: send to all human allies in game
ico: n/a
/f: send to all ico-friends
in-game: send to all ico-friends, even if they are not in game
ico: send to all friends no matter where they are
/wa: whisper ally
in-game: same as whisper, but tab autocomplete will be constrained to only allies.
ico: n/a
/wf: whisper friend
in-game: same as whisper, but tab autocomplete will be constrained to only ico-friends.
ico: same as whisper, but tab autocomplete will be constrained to only ico-friends.
/r - doesn't take in a name for the second parameter, will send automatically to the last player who send a whisper
in-game same as ico
/wr - allows you to autocomplete with <tab> through all players who have recently sent a whisper.
in-game same as ico
-You can now send whispers to players with spaces in their names by using quotes. Autocomplete properly handles these names.
-Rewrite of ico friend status. all clients are now kept up to date on the current status of every friend at all times. This allows for a more friendly ui, the friend list is colored to show who is logged in/playing games. There are globbal events to notify the user of what friends are doing. This can be disabled like the channel notifications.
-Channel name list now saves the visual and selected state on any change, so it is now possible to select players on busy channels.
-There is now a setting for if the user wants to see "<x> has left/joined channel". checkbox in ico chat screen for controlling the setting.
-Players now leave their chat channels when playing games.
-Players rejoin their old chat channel when quitting a game.
-Quitting a game now brings you back to the lobby screen chat tab instead of the join or create game tab.
-Simplified game filtering.
-Hooked up the ability to change game options for ico games.
-Changed how the lobby screens get their game options so that it will come from the save files when needed.
-ico server now ignores case when searching for games.
-Deep checksumming is now employed before joining multiplayer games (to help avoid crashes and desyncs caused by modded data).
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UserInterface / HUD:
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-Added culture flipping planet event.
-Made the use of 'strike craft' when refering to both fighters and bombers more consistent (often just fighters before).
-Various text color updates.
-Improved description of Development Mandate research.
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Modding:
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-Can now mod in different textures without copying the entire texture directory.
-Fixed corrupt particle effects when loading mods up in-game.
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Misc:
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-Various crash fixes.
-Game stats infocards now sort by value.
-Game stats now track the number of active units instead of built so that the graphs are more interesting.
-Game stats no longer tracks the number of units lost in combat as this was confusing with number of units killed and the information is now apparent from the number of active units stats.
-Scenario names are now localized, no longer use the filename, but instead use a string inside the file.
-Removed no pirate maps (not needed as its a game option now).
-Other very minor additions and changes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
End
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The next stop is the demo version and then it's on to v1.04.
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Posted: Tue, 18th Mar 2008 16:07 Post subject: |
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sins devs have said there game was the number 1 selling game in feburary according to there internally tracked sales.
its number #2 officially by that stupid agency that doesnt track walmart and digital sales
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Posted: Tue, 18th Mar 2008 22:50 Post subject: |
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Yeah personaly this game is the best space RTS i've played since Ascendancy back in the 90's o.O dont get me wrong there have been some descent ones but none that have got me hooked like this game does.
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A-A
Posts: 3153
Location: New york
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Posted: Wed, 19th Mar 2008 00:32 Post subject: |
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JBeckman
VIP Member
Posts: 34974
Location: Sweden
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