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TheSaint
Dalai Lama
Posts: 6586
Location: Cook Islands
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 Posted: Wed, 2nd Jan 2008 14:54 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | The trouble with the death is it isn't a deterrent. Most murders are done in the heat of the moment.
It doesn't just punish the guilty it punishes the innocent too. Take Mr average who goes off his head and kills someone in the heat of the moment. His kids are being punished when daddy is killed for his crime.
It's a penalty that cannot be reversed. Take that Scottish guy that's getting out of death row after 20 years. He came within an hour of it being carried out and people say that it's painless. Absolutely rubbish. Theres been hundreds of botched executions.
Even famous murderers like John Wayne Gacey.
I've said this more than once, but put people who else would have been on death row in secure employment with any monies made going to the victims families.
No, a society cannot be judged truely civilised when they have death on the statute books. That turns people in the prison service into life takers. They too will have as much blood on their hands as the people they're killing. |
Yeah thats what i mean, the exact thing is said by Leo Polak (dutch professor filosofie).
I agree with you.
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deelix
PDIP Member
Posts: 32062
Location: Norway
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chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Jan 2008 16:23 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | The trouble with the death is it isn't a deterrent. Most murders are done in the heat of the moment.
It doesn't just punish the guilty it punishes the innocent too. Take Mr average who goes off his head and kills someone in the heat of the moment. His kids are being punished when daddy is killed for his crime.
It's a penalty that cannot be reversed. Take that Scottish guy that's getting out of death row after 20 years. He came within an hour of it being carried out and people say that it's painless. Absolutely rubbish. Theres been hundreds of botched executions.
Even famous murderers like John Wayne Gacey.
I've said this more than once, but put people who else would have been on death row in secure employment with any monies made going to the victims families.
No, a society cannot be judged truely civilised when they have death on the statute books. That turns people in the prison service into life takers. They too will have as much blood on their hands as the people they're killing. |
if a guy goes off his head or not, he STILL took another persons life... just because he didnt plan it a month in advance, he should be granted a light sentance? suddenly it becomes excusable? how can you justify that?!
if someone kills your loved one because they spilled his can of coke, will you say... "oh well.. he didnt plan it, so i guess he shouldnt get punished TOO much.." - i feel sad if you would behave in that way... someone has still decided that the life he was taking was worthless and HIS to take... and its not like stealing some item, its something that can never be undone, and NO punishment short of an equal trade, is ever fair enough...
once someone has shown a WILLINGNESS to kill, planned in advance or not, they have shown their capability to go through with it, and are a definate danger to the public.. you are concerned about little timmys welfare if his murderer father is put to death? are you not concerned about little timmys welfare if his murderer of a father 'goes off his head' again and this time kills his family?
and what about the victims family... their loved one is dead, yet every day the person responsible is allowed to live because his life is deemed more important? because he has CHILDREN? out of some silly moral guidelines? why should someone who has no morals and WISHES to operate outside of societies rules and standards, suddenly benefit from them? come on... if you take an innocent life, how are you worthy of having one yourself if you can so easily take it away from others? what message are you sending to others out there?
a society can not be civilised if they have a death penality? it sounds like your saying death penalty is a contributing cause to an uncivilised society.. i see it the other way round... you cant have a civilised society while people are murdering others and getting away with it...until you put a stop to these people BY removing them perminantely from society, you can never HAVE a civilised society... i know im saying this in an unclear round-about way, but essentially a death penalty is purely a result of a society that is uncivilised to begin with, NOT a contributing factor of one.
i think the problem here is that you are seeing murderers as humans.. thats unfair, they are savage animals that get pleasure or gain out of causing pain and suffering to others... to put one of these bastards down is not an act of murder like the ones the criminals THEMSELVES have commited as some of you seem to believe... to put a murderer to death is an act of protection for the society, not simply an act of killing for revenge.
i see people every day hurting other people, murdering, raping... and what... they get 15 years!! justice? i guess the guy had kids so its ok to give him such a light sentence...
do you really believe that removing the death penalty would make people more civilsed and less inclined to inflict pain on others? no it wont... violence is part of human nature, and the ONLY thing that people understand is fear... remove that control, and see how bad things will get... just because YOU might understand right from wrong, does not mean that it is a common trait for humans... most of us dont steal stuff from stores only because we fear getting caught... we dont speed for fear of getting a ticket... dont kill for fear of punishment...
i guess what it ultimately boils down to, is you either believe that murder is excusable and should not merit a severe punishment, or you think that these crimes are commited by savages that should recieve what they are willing to dish out.
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Jan 2008 16:58 Post subject: |
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| chiv wrote: |
if a guy goes off his head or not, he STILL took another persons life... just because he didnt plan it a month in advance, he should be granted a light sentance? suddenly it becomes excusable? how can you justify that?! |
I didn't justify someone killing, quite the opposite. It's you that'sjustifying killing, not me.
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if someone kills your loved one because they spilled his can of coke, will you say... "oh well.. he didnt plan it, so i guess he shouldnt get punished TOO much.." - i feel sad if you would behave in that way... someone has still decided that the life he was taking was worthless and HIS to take... and its not like stealing some item, its something that can never be undone, and NO punishment short of an equal trade, is ever fair enough...
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No it's not happened to me, probably not you either.
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once someone has shown a WILLINGNESS to kill, planned in advance or not, they have shown their capability to go through with it, and are a definate danger to the public.. you are concerned about little timmys welfare if his murderer father is put to death? are you not concerned about little timmys welfare if his murderer of a father 'goes off his head' again and this time kills his family?
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Tell me, have you ever lost your temper or been in a fight? Ever broken something when you've just had enough?
I think that keeping little Timmy's father locked up would be better for little Timmy. Rather than putting him though the trauma of knowing his father is going to be executed. Not to mention the stigma at school that little Timmy goes to. The bullying which I'm sure would go on. I think that it's better for little Timmy not to have to go through knowing that his dad was dead.
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and what about the victims family... their loved one is dead, yet every day the person responsible is allowed to live because his life is deemed more important? because he has CHILDREN? out of some silly moral guidelines? why should someone who has no morals and WISHES to operate outside of societies rules and standards, suddenly benefit from them? come on... if you take an innocent life, how are you worthy of having one yourself if you can so easily take it away from others? what message are you sending to others out there?
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Are you seriously telling me that because someone has taken a life they can never have a decent place in society again?
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a society can not be civilised if they have a death penality? it sounds like your saying death penalty is a contributing cause to an uncivilised society.. i see it the other way round... you cant have a civilised society while people are murdering others and getting away with it...until you put a stop to these people BY removing them perminantely from society, you can never HAVE a civilised society... i know im saying this in an unclear round-about way, but essentially a death penalty is purely a result of a society that is uncivilised to begin with, NOT a contributing factor of one.
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I see, so you're saying that killing people for killing is a civil thing to do? Do you honestly think that the death penalty is a deterrent? Look at the figures. I can assure you that it is not.
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i think the problem here is that you are seeing murderers as humans.. thats unfair, they are savage animals that get pleasure or gain out of causing pain and suffering to others... to put one of these bastards down is not an act of murder like the ones the criminals THEMSELVES have commited as some of you seem to believe... to put a murderer to death is an act of protection for the society, not simply an act of killing for revenge.
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I see, so everyone on Death Row is a psychotic maniac? Everyone of them gained pleasure of killing in a sadistic manner? Incorrect again. I think quite a few are there because of unfavourable circumstances. Sure you have your serial killers from time to time. But serial killers are quite rare. That's why they generate so much news.
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i see people every day hurting other people, murdering, raping... and what... they get 15 years!! justice? i guess the guy had kids so its ok to give him such a light sentence...
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I suggest you move before your property prices are affected. Or wake up.
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do you really believe that removing the death penalty would make people more civilsed and less inclined to inflict pain on others? no it wont... |
Do you really believe that keeping the death penalty would either?
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violence is part of human nature, and the ONLY thing that people understand is fear... remove that control, and see how bad things will get... just because YOU might understand right from wrong, does not mean that it is a common trait for humans... most of us dont steal stuff from stores only because we fear getting caught... we dont speed for fear of getting a ticket... dont kill for fear of punishment...
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I see. So it's a fear of death that stops people killing is it?
Strange, I live in a country that has abolished the death penalty and it has a lower homicide rate than the US. I wonder how that is as the fear of death is removed.
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i guess what it ultimately boils down to, is you either believe that murder is excusable and should not merit a severe punishment, or you think that these crimes are commited by savages that should recieve what they are willing to dish out. |
Yes, because every country (or rather civilised country) thinks that murder is excusable. That's why we have no state sponsored murder ourselves. It seems by your logic, the less excusable it is, the more it happens. |
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$en$i
VIP Member
Posts: 3127
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Jan 2008 17:32 Post subject: |
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| Martian123 wrote: | I do not support the death penalty,
I don't believe it should be left to the judgment of society, the legal system, the government to dictate who has the right to live or die. |
Same opinion, male & 27yo.
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chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Jan 2008 18:12 Post subject: |
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i dont care if someone killed another person due to unfavourable circumstances... ive been angry at times, and so have you... everyone has... but we dont kill just because were having a bad day, so i dont see why anyone that does decide that anothers life is worthless, should be given any allowances or treated any better than any other killer, for whatever reasons they chose. Planned or not, circumstances irrelivant, a choice to kill is a choice to kill...
stating where you live doesnt have a death penalty but is safer than america doesnt mean much... that would mean any country that has the death penalty and less murders is proof that the death penalty is a good thing... its not a good example to use... instead look at america and how it has stopped using the death penalty in most places.. i dont think its made the country any safer?
the fear of death does not stop people from killing, i never said that, if it was implied it was not intended... rather, the fear of execution or punishment stops a lot MORE people from killing.
i dont know if the death penalty will make people more civilised, it probably wont - at best it will just keep things as they are... however i do know that NOT having it will not make people magically start caring about others, and that the value of life would suddenly be apparent to more people...
and as for poor little timmy... the bullying he will get at school will be the same if his dad is alive or dead... his father is a murderer, and thats all that'll really matter... do you think kids would be more understanding if his father were locked up than they were if he was dead? and yes timmy would be better off if his dad was dead... do you really want him to pass on that cycle of violence to his son? teaching his son either personally or through his actions in the past, that violence is the way, and anothers life is meaningless? surely he is better off away from such a negative and violent influence...
and how exactly is a murderer going to have a 'decent place in society' if he is locked up for life? unless you are suggesting that not only should we not EXECUTE these people, but release them back into the public to possibly kill again!? unless by 'a decent place' you mean breaking rocks while wearing chains for the rest of their life...
look, i would agree with most of the things you said, if all prisons, in every country, did a better job... a windowless concrete room, with a matress on the floor, a blanket, and no other furnishings allowed, 3 INCREDIBLY basic meals a day, and 18 hour a day confinedment to that room, with 6 hours of hard manual labour to earn money for their keep (taken directly by the state, NOT a cent given to the criminals), and for supporting the people whose lives they effected... every murderer or rapist should be given a LIFE sentance meaning they stay in prison till they die...
problem is, prisons like this are very rare, and getting rarer... the only reason i support the death penalty, is because punishments for horrible crimes are no where NEAR severe enough, and they never will be... they dont teach criminals ANY lesson, dont teach them any respect for laws and civilised society, and dont make them respect the value of anothers life any more than they previously did...
make every prison like what i mentioned above, and i will happily say that the death penalty is no longer needed and is a bad thing.
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Jan 2008 18:52 Post subject: |
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The death penalty isn't about justice, it's about revenge. When justice is all about an eye for an eye, then nothing good will ever come out of it.
| Quote: | A Scottish man who has been on death row in the US for 20 years is set to be freed.
Kenny Richey has agreed to a plea deal with US prosecutors which will allow him to walk free, his lawyer said.
Earlier this year his conviction for starting a fire in 1986 which claimed the life of a two-year-old girl in Ohio was overturned.
He was sentenced to execution, but a federal appeals court threw out his conviction and death sentence last month.
His lawyer Ken Parsigian said: "It is a complete victory and more than Kenny and I could ever wish for. Kenny is thrilled but a little nervous."
The Foreign Office could not confirm that Richey had made a plea bargain and was about to be freed to return to the UK but said there was a court hearing scheduled on Thursday. |
You're saying that because someone that has a murderer for a father, then they too will turn into murderer. That's completely absurd.
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Jan 2008 19:29 Post subject: |
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male
19
Support it in extreme cases, but when somebody does something horrible like pedophilia, or some definite sick shit, I would rather torture the bastards slowly then take their worthless life. Killing them is too easy, and locking them up wouldn't change them because prisons, which should teach the convicts how to act normally in life, doesn't do shit due to the lack of funding. It should take at least one psychologist on 10 prisoners and one sociologist, and that just won't happen because of the cruelty we call capitalism.Money is the source and the solution to all the problems...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Jan 2008 19:30 Post subject: |
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Przepraszam
VIP Member
Posts: 14491
Location: Poland. New York.
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| Posted: Wed, 2nd Jan 2008 20:52 Post subject: |
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Hey, I would like just to thank everyone who have replied and helped me!
Some pretty interesting views and opinions people brought up that have never occurred to me before.
Thanks again! <3
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jan 2008 07:39 Post subject: |
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My issue is that once you open up that door who is in control of when it goes to far?
Here is an example, I was watching a television program about 2 months ago, an
american program. This kid (21 years old) was in jail for fucking some tart who was
17. Now although I wouldn't have at his age especially if laws were against it, I would
hardly call this kid a pedophile, but you know what? The people on the program were,
so now here's a young man who had sex with someone a few years younger and he is
forever branded a pedophile, now no death penalty is involved, BUT if you allow for
pedophiles to be executed this kid would be on that list, or at least could be. Sadly
IMHO he is a victim of stupid laws.
If you really think about it, I am sure most of you would point to serial killers as those
that are ok to execute, but how many of them are there really? not enough to enact
a law for it. Lock them up for good, they are off the streets and no longer a menace.
Read not to contradict and confute, nor to believe and take for granted, but to weigh and consider.
To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world.
In all your remembering, remember that you have choices
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Parallax_
VIP Member
Posts: 6422
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jan 2008 08:50 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | but when somebody does something horrible like pedophilia, or some definite sick shit, I would rather torture the bastards slowly then take their worthless life. Killing them is too easy, and locking them up wouldn't change them because prisons, which should teach the convicts how to act normally in life, doesn't do shit due to the lack of funding. |
You cannot change anybody by torturing them. Time and time again has shown that people will say anything under duress to avoid the pain. Believe it or not, it's not due to lack of funding, but because of the way the system is built up. |
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jan 2008 19:00 Post subject: |
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I didn't think torturing would change those people imo cannot really be changed. I think that the pain is only thing they understand. And the system is run by people who like it this way, so it will probably never change, unless we move to another planet where everything would be different, but that's more of a SF...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jan 2008 19:23 Post subject: |
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Torturing ppl? Wow, that's evil!
 Spoiler: | God make games, and God give us the games. |
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jan 2008 19:45 Post subject: |
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Yeah that's me 
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jan 2008 23:30 Post subject: |
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Male
27
No (imagine if someone innocent was sentenced)
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WaldoJ
VIP Member
Posts: 32678
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jan 2008 23:45 Post subject: |
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lotta people are:p
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
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jcx
Posts: 457
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Thu, 3rd Jan 2008 23:50 Post subject: |
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Mutantius
VIP Member
Posts: 18594
Location: In Elektro looking for beans
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| Posted: Fri, 4th Jan 2008 00:41 Post subject: |
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Male
20
| Quote: | I do not support the death penalty,
I don't believe it should be left to the judgment of society, the legal system, the government to dictate who has the right to live or die. |
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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| Posted: Fri, 4th Jan 2008 03:52 Post subject: |
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I think the government deciding who lives or dies is almost god like. If we are such a society that we can not afford to keep those who are mentally sick then I think then there is something wrong with our society.
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| Posted: Fri, 4th Jan 2008 14:54 Post subject: |
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yes but what if somebody is wrongly convicted and scentenced to death?
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| Posted: Fri, 4th Jan 2008 16:03 Post subject: |
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It is the system. If that could be fixed then there wouldn't be any wrongly sentenced
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
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| Posted: Fri, 4th Jan 2008 16:42 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | It is the system. If that could be fixed then there wouldn't be any wrongly sentenced |
if there was a system that could with 100% accuracy prove that somebody is innocent / guilty, it could and would still be tempered with by people in power on occasion. So why put the power in the hands of some select few and thusly making other people killers in the name of a country?
If you are against murder in a society it is flawed to call for murder in the case of a homicide. It reduces the perceived value of life significantly. And if you compare countries with the death penalty with the rate of murder you dont find a deterring factor, but rather the opposite. Imho violence breeds violence and if you continue the murder by becoming a murder yourself, you ll only make it worse in the long run. i m with Jenny on this topic since she said it already much better in this thread.
for the stats: 33, male, no
p.s.: especially since we dont know what comes after death, why does everybody think, that it s a punishment to be killed? It might be the next-best thing that happened to the murderer since his birth really? |
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| Posted: Sat, 5th Jan 2008 05:23 Post subject: |
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| Lutzifer wrote: | | dingo_d wrote: | | It is the system. If that could be fixed then there wouldn't be any wrongly sentenced |
if there was a system that could with 100% accuracy prove that somebody is innocent / guilty, it could and would still be tempered with by people in power on occasion. So why put the power in the hands of some select few and thusly making other people killers in the name of a country?
If you are against murder in a society it is flawed to call for murder in the case of a homicide. It reduces the perceived value of life significantly. And if you compare countries with the death penalty with the rate of murder you dont find a deterring factor, but rather the opposite. Imho violence breeds violence and if you continue the murder by becoming a murder yourself, you ll only make it worse in the long run. i m with Jenny on this topic since she said it already much better in this thread.
for the stats: 33, male, no
p.s.: especially sin ce we dont know what comes after death, why does everybody think, that it s a punishment to be killed? It might be the next-best thing that happened to the murderer since his birth really? |
Exactly. QFT
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thompa
Banned
Posts: 962
Location: Din mamma
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| Posted: Sat, 5th Jan 2008 06:20 Post subject: |
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Yep, all for it in severe cases where the guilt is unquestioned.
No doubt that the world would be a better place if some criminal assholes were removed from the gene pool.
Just as I'm all for castration and sterilization of some groups of people.
(Junkies who can't take care of themselves shouldn't be allowed to reproduce and in turn destroy the lives of children, neither should child molesters and the likes.)
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| Posted: Sat, 5th Jan 2008 06:29 Post subject: |
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I am still of the mindset, that man was not made to choose who is to live and who is to die.
Read not to contradict and confute, nor to believe and take for granted, but to weigh and consider.
To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world.
In all your remembering, remember that you have choices
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thompa
Banned
Posts: 962
Location: Din mamma
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| Posted: Sat, 5th Jan 2008 06:58 Post subject: |
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Man was not crated to watch tv or drive a car either.
But seriously, killing is one of the most basic natures of the human being, so yeah we were very much created to decide who should live and who should die. But perhaps not in the sense of modern justice. Man adopts to progress and the current situation of society.
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| Posted: Sat, 5th Jan 2008 07:11 Post subject: |
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28, m, i ain't touching this one with a ten-foot pole...
"Only one country can destroy NATO in 40 minutes - it's Russia"
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WaldoJ
VIP Member
Posts: 32678
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| Posted: Sat, 5th Jan 2008 07:17 Post subject: |
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/me gives vodka an 11 foot pole
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
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