| Page 1 of 1 |
|
|
 Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 07:43 Post subject: Ding Ding Ding! Maps VS. A.I. |
|
 |
Parallax and I were just discussing how codemasters sucks more dick than a hooker at a frat party and if Clive Barker would have gone with a different company it would have turned out better. Not only did the game have shitty level design, the AI was worse that a blind mute.
I proposed monolith should have gotten the project cause they know how to code AI, but they lack in the map designing. So we were debating on which is more important.
So the point of this thread, vote on which you find to be more important in a game. If your going to post, post something thought out and not some trolling comment or 2 word post. I want to here reasons behind your post.
Let the debating begin.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 07:47 Post subject: |
|
|
Red font on this bg burns eyes and is almost unreadable, stop doing it kthnx. Any game could be better with another company, but we don't live in a COULD world, so there is nothing to discuss here.
C2D E6750 @ 3.2Ghz, 4GB 800MHz DDR2 4-4-4-12, GeForce GTX 260 c216 OC 896MB, 3.2TB, Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Xbox 360 Elite, PS2 Slim, Xbox
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mYslead
Posts: 738
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 08:03 Post subject: |
|
|
| Glottis wrote: | | Red font on this bg burns eyes and is almost unreadable, stop doing it kthnx. Any game could be better with another company, but we don't live in a COULD world, so there is nothing to discuss here. |
touché
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 08:09 Post subject: |
|
|
| Glottis wrote: | | Red font on this bg burns eyes and is almost unreadable, stop doing it kthnx. Any game could be better with another company, but we don't live in a COULD world, so there is nothing to discuss here. |
1) Thanks for trolling..dumbass
2) SINCE you failed to post something even worthy of being called intelligent, it's obviously you didn't even comprehend the first post. The thread is not about companies, it's what you prefer in a game. DUH HUURRRr |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 08:19 Post subject: |
|
|
I like monolith´s map design in NOLF and Condemned. Those of Fear where a bit boring sometimes but remember that the crappy Fear Addons are not done by them. Beside this i do not want to chose between good maps or smart AI, i want it both.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 08:23 Post subject: |
|
|
| FastMemFirst wrote: | | I like monolith´s map design in NOLF and Condemned. Those of Fear where a bit boring sometimes but remember that the crappy Fear Addons are not done by them. Beside this i do not want to chose between good maps or smart AI, i want it both. |
I didn't make it too far in condemned, how were the maps? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 08:36 Post subject: |
|
|
AI all the way. mainly because ive seen good level design, but never seen truely great AI...
and great AI can make poor levels more enjoyable... crap AI will not make pretty shiny levels fun to go through...
and you didnt propose monolith, i proposed it back when we were discussing this shit back in the jericho thread 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 08:59 Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 16:23 Post subject: |
|
|
i think immersiveness is the factor. And even with linear design games can have a high immersiveness. I havent played Jericho yet, so i cant say anything about that, but generally a good and open map design helps alot. But often it s easier to tell a story by going for linear design. Max Payne had that pretty linear map design, but the game was great nevertheless because the story elements were perfectly placed to get you going on. If you look at games like oblivion, that try to have huge worlds and open choices, you ll soon get a feeling of been-there-done-that, because of similar level-design as well.
I really get bored with games if they dont entertain and i d rather always judge the whole product on its downfalls rather than on its strong points, if i feel it doesnt entertain me. When it does i usually refrain from discussing why it does so, because its a mixture of many things anyways. Look at Halo games for example. What they do great is mixing a pretty mediocre shooter-experience with just the right amount of great pacing, decent story, great atmosphere and a good learning & difficulty curve. You never get the feeling in halo games that you arent entertainend (except perhaps for that hideously overdone library level in the first one... ...somebody should still be shot for that one).
What it comes down to is also personal taste. Not everybody cares about level-design or wants to explore. But if bad linear levels throw you off your game, than the game is bad for you. Period. No need to argue.
EDIT: and no A.I. will ever again have that impression on me that those marines in the original Half-Life left. Some q3a bot-matches and FEAR certainly instilled a feeling similar to it, but it never got close to that initial feeling of truely being fucked over cunningly by those bastards. I still would rather go for map-design on the above question but will refrain from voting for the above reasons...
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 16:28 Post subject: |
|
|
I don't think the level design in jericho is bad, just the use of it via the AI is pretty bad (IE monsters don't use things in their environmetns - they just randomly run at you). With games like crysis and bioshock, I think we can clearly see that level design is at pretty high standards already. But what about AI? I haven't seen any games improve AI at all since FEAR, and even now when I play FEAR SP i find the AI too easy.
fear the led zeppelin that was!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sTo0z
[Moderator] Babysitter
Posts: 7449
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 16:41 Post subject: |
|
|
Maps are maps, ZZzz.. Amazing AI always makes a better experience.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 16:46 Post subject: |
|
|
| sTo0z wrote: | | Maps are maps, ZZzz.. Amazing AI always makes a better experience. |
But maps make the game. And there are always games that dont have "Enemys" and dont need AI. If we are talking shooters only, then both are equally important. Emphasis on equally. As i said above, if one falls short badly the game will most certainly suck for alot of people |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Under
Posts: 667
Location: Scotland
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 20:08 Post subject: |
|
|
And what's the point of having a best designed map in the world with the most beatiful graphic when the A.I is acting like 2 months old chimpanzee with no arms ? It's no fun then ...
But on another hand playing on map like Omaha Beach (from MOH:AA) is a great exp ... but really I finally would like to see some advance AI in action - remember the reapor bot from Quake1 ? or bots from Q2 ! Man it' was real challenge then if they could do it back in the q2 days so why they can't do it now ?
And I finally would like to see more intelligent enemys when u chaning the game difficulty not the smaller health bar or bigger dmg that any weapon is giving ... :/
Best PICKUP LINE :
"Hey, does this rag smell like chloroform to you?"
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Fri, 2nd Nov 2007 20:34 Post subject: |
|
|
| Lutzifer wrote: | | sTo0z wrote: | | Maps are maps, ZZzz.. Amazing AI always makes a better experience. |
But maps make the game. And there are always games that dont have "Enemys" and dont need AI. If we are talking shooters only, then both are equally important. Emphasis on equally. As i said above, if one falls short badly the game will most certainly suck for alot of people |
I've played plenty of games with good or decent map design but I can't get into it cause of it. Maps don't mean a whole lot to me, it's how the AI acts. FEAR personally was one of my favorite games, and seeing the way the AI acted and trying to flank you made up for the maps, it didn't matter you had 1 straight path to go through. Now Jericho could have had the same experience, I wouldn't have cared it was literally a straight path through the whole games if the AI was done by a company who actually knew how to code AI.
Then of course, you have games like Bioshock and Deus Ex where map design was beyond excellent, and made the game that much funner but it's a rarity anymore than a company puts that much time into maps. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
Location: ____________________ **** vegan zombie **** GRRAAIIINNSS _______
|
| Posted: Sat, 3rd Nov 2007 01:30 Post subject: |
|
|
AI often also depend on the situation. For example Farcry had great "upclose-AI" but if you used a sniper-rifle they acted like idiots most of the time (or at least as long as you were out of sight for them). In Crysis it s a bit better, but not perfect either...
...but as i said, the original Halflife marines will always have a spot in my gamer-heart for being the hardest enemies
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Sat, 3rd Nov 2007 01:32 Post subject: |
|
|
| Lutzifer wrote: | AI often also depend on the situation. For example Farcry had great "upclose-AI" but if you used a sniper-rifle they acted like idiots most of the time (or at least as long as you were out of sight for them). In Crysis it s a bit better, but not perfect either...
...but as i said, the original Halflife marines will always have a spot in my gamer-heart for being the hardest enemies |
I could never get into any of the half-lifes :\ Anywho it's quite the competition in the poll, it's pretty much half n half 
hmmm, 6666 posts.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Sat, 3rd Nov 2007 11:32 Post subject: |
|
|
a well designed map can cover up shitty AI so i definitly prefer good map design.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
|
| Posted: Sat, 3rd Nov 2007 11:59 Post subject: |
|
|
what good is a nice looking map if all the enemies run right past you, so that they are facing the wall behind you, then proceed to continuously fire their guns point blank into the wall while you stand there going 'damn... thats one fucking nice wall placement...'
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Sat, 3rd Nov 2007 12:46 Post subject: |
|
|
i say AI beacuse well if the AI is pretty good then you can forgive poor level design plus the community can mod and make good maps or they could relase them as an addon if enough is said but if the engine has shit AI then its pretty much stuck that way.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
|
| Posted: Sat, 3rd Nov 2007 12:58 Post subject: |
|
|
| Adagio.81 wrote: | | chiv wrote: | | what good is a nice looking map if all the enemies run right past you, so that they are facing the wall behind you, then proceed to continuously fire their guns point blank into the wall while you stand there going 'damn... thats one fucking nice wall placement...' |
You do know the maps can also be used for MP, right?
But then if your enemies still runs into the wall shooting randomly, then it might be time to change the server  |
yeah but the question is maps vs ai, so in my mind we really are just talking about singleplayer...
and hey, in mp games, id rather have some twats shooting walls rather than team killing...oooh i hate those bastards... not sure who i hate worse... the cunts that do it on purpose, or the silly bastards who cant tell friend from foe... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Sat, 3rd Nov 2007 21:43 Post subject: |
|
|
| chiv wrote: | | what good is a nice looking map if all the enemies run right past you, so that they are facing the wall behind you, then proceed to continuously fire their guns point blank into the wall while you stand there going 'damn... thats one fucking nice wall placement...' |
Sounds like a huge case of GRAW II haha. Forgot who it was in the original thread but he was running back to the helicopter and saw some guy run past him crouched so he thought it was one of his team members till he realized they were already in the helicopter..so he shot him haha. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
upstart_69
Posts: 1094
Location: Right behind you!
|
| Posted: Mon, 5th Nov 2007 11:45 Post subject: |
|
|
Map Design. Why? Because good AI is optional.
Think about it...it is a really great feature to have realistic AI in your game, or even decent AI, but many games get away with hardly any AI at all. The games that do, advertise the hell out of it like it is an extra you should pay for. Maps however, are no feature, they are part of the game and you just know they are good,almost instinctually... Map design I think is a core basic element just in how games are designed, not sure why but there it is. I have never seen a game emerge from AI, but from maps? Many have. I am thinking especially of when I played the HL2 alpha leak for hrs, with AI not even coded in, but many others factor in.
Anyways its just my opinion and many disagree as I see. But I'll just ask this...what would be better, a game with a huge empty room and smart AI(no map)? Or a brilliantly designed shooting range with paper targets scattered in locations throughout the level(no AI)?
Core i7 920 @ 3.8Ghz | 6GB OCZ DDR3 8-8-8-24 @ 1600mhz | eVga x58 Mobo | 2 x eVga GTX 460 SLI | Intel X25-M + 3x Seagate + WD Black = 2.75TB | X-Fi Titanium | PCP&C Silencer 750 | G15 KB | G5 Mouse | G35 Headset | Z-5500 Digital | Samsung T260HD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Sat, 10th Nov 2007 06:16 Post subject: |
|
|
But shouldn't mapdesign and A.I work together? A.I are more like giving a feeling of a thinking enemy. If the map are cluttered with objects and things the most advanced A.I can do stupied things. I think it's a matter of scale down the map so the A.I can navigate it in a "good" manner without getting stuck. But you also as a mapdesigner have to make the enviroument believble. The most single-pathed game can feel great if the designer have made it to "feel" like you're taking choices. You know that feeling that things goes on a "rail" disapear...eventhough you're practicly do just that...
As for best A.I I think S.W.A.T 3 had a GREAT friendly A.I...that's the only game I felt I could trust my comrad police officers, they got my back...if I sent them into a room to clear it out, they'd do that..even check behind showercurtians and inside closets, I could trust that room was clear without going to check. Most importently, they NEVER ran into a room uncarefully to get gunned down by a terrorist standing behind the doorframe.
If I have to line A.I and Mapdesign up. I do think the Map goes before A.I..However, that depends on the game too. Monsters and such can act stupied, but I do not want 10 well trained marines runing at me shooting widly without see to find themself some cover.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Page 1 of 1 |
All times are GMT + 1 Hour |
