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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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 Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 00:18 Post subject: 62nd Anniversary of Hiroshima Nuclear Strike |
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62 years later, what are your thoughts on the holocaust that ended WW2, was the dropping of the bombs necessary to end the war? And more importantly, was the dropping of the bombs necessary above 2 cities, with nothing more than innocent civilians?
despite of the bomb strike being or not necessary, nobody can convince me, that dropping them above the heads of tens of thousands of innocent civilians is anything more than an act of pure terrorism. I mean, the U.S. was pissed off because of pearl harbor, a japanese attack to a military base, and then they strike back with the most powerful weapon knowned to man against two two civilian cities, the japanese attack to pearl harbor was an act of war, the american strike to hiroshima and nagasaki was an act of terrorism and a crime against humanity.
the japanese culture is, imo, the most complete culture in the world, either it's their pilosophy or their capacity to create or their way of live or their language or their food, or their cars, or their music, or their ANIME 
the U.S. rules with weapons and wars, the japanese rule with culture, and as a people, they are extremely honorable and peaceful, gotta love the japanese
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 00:29 Post subject: |
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I would just like to state, this thread will bring nothing mroe than arguing and flaming....and that I posted here before that happens lol
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 00:33 Post subject: |
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kosmiq
Posts: 2304
Location: Somewhere
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 01:22 Post subject: |
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Well the "argument" I've heard most in this matter gotta be "if they hadn't dropped the bomb there would've been hard fights with a lot killed on both sides, perhaps more then was killed by the bombs" and so on. That is the single worst argument ever. Why? Because if more people would've died then they wouldn't die nowadays because of the lasting effects of the radiation.
I think there is nothing that can defend dropping an atomic bomb onto any country for any purpose.
Behold his GLORY! Bow for the technical master!
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X_Dror
Posts: 4957
Location: Jerusalem, Israel
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 01:30 Post subject: |
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I think someone had to try it sooner or later. It was inevitable. (Not that I support it or anything, but I think it's the human nature)
Usually people don't learn things the easy way. Someone needs to get hurt in order to teach others. Hopefully, nothing like that will ever happen again, after humanity saw its consequences.
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Mutantius
VIP Member
Posts: 18594
Location: In Elektro looking for beans
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 02:13 Post subject: |
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As X_dror pointed out; The bombing itself was ineitable but highly unnecessary and should be seen as a direct hit upon a civilian population.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 02:57 Post subject: |
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The full power of the bombs were still unknown at the time of their use, but the idea that the cities were purely civilian is laughable. I doubt there was a major city in any of the warring nations that did not churn out military supplies or assist with their nation's war effort in some fashion. As for whether it was necessary, the math was rather simple. Better for the Japanese to die, the ones who STARTED THE WAR, than sacrifice US soldiers drafted to fight a war. Perhaps a history lesson on Japanese atrocities, particularly towards civilian populations, would give more of you a balanced view of history?
Unit 731?
Rape of Nanking?
"Pleasure women"
Do some research. Sometimes your sins come back to haunt you.
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kosmiq
Posts: 2304
Location: Somewhere
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 03:06 Post subject: |
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| Siddhartha wrote: | The full power of the bombs were still unknown at the time of their use, but the idea that the cities were purely civilian is laughable. I doubt there was a major city in any of the warring nations that did not churn out military supplies or assist with their nation's war effort in some fashion. As for whether it was necessary, the math was rather simple. Better for the Japanese to die, the ones who STARTED THE WAR, than sacrifice US soldiers drafted to fight a war. Perhaps a history lesson on Japanese atrocities, particularly towards civilian populations, would give more of you a balanced view of history?
Unit 731?
Rape of Nanking?
"Pleasure women"
Do some research. Sometimes your sins come back to haunt you. |
Is that how you defend dropping a nuclear bomb on civilians? You know in war there are not only military casualties...
I also presume that you think that the japanese people living there today facing all the problems that came from the bomb. Children being born with major disfunctions and so on deserves it because their ancestors "started the war"...
The fact that germany started WW2 doesn't have anything to do with it right? Japan simply attacked Parl Harbor and forced the US to "join" the war. I think the fact that the US had to be attacked before joining the war is rather scary. Why didn't they help before and why the hell did they have to use the nukes.
Behold his GLORY! Bow for the technical master! |
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 03:30 Post subject: |
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I think the US did what any nation in a war would do - inflict as much damage on the enemy as possible. That's all that armies do during a war. Build a :
bigger cannon
bigger tank
bigger bomb
bigger plane to carry the bigger bomb etc, etc.
And the fact that civillian targets were chosen is also nothing new. London, Berlin, Dresden, Rotterdam are all civillian targets. Sure you could argue that they are ports or some other strategically important target. But that's just the point. All major cities have some strategic value for a nations war machine.
Sure, the images of the aftermath are not pretty but Germany and Japan would have used atomic weapons without hesitation too. Even with conventional weapons Japan managed to slaughter and subdue a LOT of people.
One could argue the need for using the bombs at a stage when the war was almost at an end. But whether Japan was ready to surrender at that point was not very obvious. With all that 'death before dishonour' crap one couldn't expect Japan to surrender easily. Even if the war had lasted a month longer it would have meant thousands of additional casualties. If you're given a choice between that and dropping the bomb, it's not a very difficult decision to make.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 03:44 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Is that how you defend dropping a nuclear bomb on civilians?
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If we invaded the mainland how many of those civilians would have stayed civilians? How many of those civilians were actively contributing to the Japanese war effort by working in war plants etc etc...? In a war as big as WWII, you could only bring down the other guy if you destroyed their industrial base. Victories were not enough, because they could just rebuild their tanks, retrain their troops, and come at you again and again. In order to defeat the enemy you had to destroy his ability to lead a war. This was achieved through guerrilla warfare and extensive bombing. If we did not drop an A-Bomb on those civilians, a vast majority would have probably been killed by carpet bombing and fire bombing aimed at their military bases and war plants, and vengeful Americans once their city was overrun.
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I also presume that you think that the japanese people living there today facing all the problems that came from the bomb. Children being born with major disfunctions and so on deserves it because their ancestors "started the war"...
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Regrettable, but few people knew the side effects of the bomb. I believe there were only a couple of memo's detailing them, most notable by a brigadier General in charge of the project, Leslie Groves was his name I think. Basically, no one knew about the long term effects of the A Bombs, and that is a pity.
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The fact that germany started WW2 doesn't have anything to do with it right? Japan simply attacked Parl Harbor and forced the US to "join" the war. I think the fact that the US had to be attacked before joining the war is rather scary. Why didn't they help before
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Why should we get involved in every war in Europe. A lot of people in America were all for isolationism. They believed that the war would never affect their lives, even if Europe fell to the Nazis, and were viciously against any sort of intervention in European wars. Of course, the people in the state department were smarter, hence all the under-the-table help to the British, and even in some cases the Soviets.
[quote]
they have to use the nukes.
[/quote]
See above.
Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 04:08 Post subject: |
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it was good that they did it. also, i hope nobody opens a topic in 62 years remembering 11 september. cause its coming up again, and i bet there will be specials on the news about it all over the world ffs (well, except in afghanistan, where it will be party programming  )
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 10:53 Post subject: |
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the u.s goverments are hipocrits ..were there any genetic mutations?
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 10:56 Post subject: |
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lol i just lookat at that survivor link it remiends me of the twilight zone not sure witch episode but its the one were he lokes himsel in the bank safe and then wakes up then finds that england has been destrroyed by a hydrogen bomb
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Parallax_
VIP Member
Posts: 6422
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 11:00 Post subject: Re: 62nd Anniversary of Hiroshima Nuclear Strike |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | I mean, the U.S. was pissed off because of pearl harbor, a japanese attack to a military base, and then they strike back with the most powerful weapon knowned to man against two two civilian cities, the japanese attack to pearl harbor was an act of war, the american strike to hiroshima and nagasaki was an act of terrorism and a crime against humanity. |
Spot on.
Fuck the US government. |
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 11:12 Post subject: |
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BIG BADA BOOM!
| Cohen wrote: | I'm a troll! well done, you caught me lying my ass off on a forum. I post pictures so that it makes you angry and that you wish you could have my awesome material things  |
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 11:50 Post subject: Re: 62nd Anniversary of Hiroshima Nuclear Strike |
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| Parallax_ wrote: | | Ronhrin wrote: | | I mean, the U.S. was pissed off because of pearl harbor, a japanese attack to a military base, and then they strike back with the most powerful weapon knowned to man against two two civilian cities, the japanese attack to pearl harbor was an act of war, the american strike to hiroshima and nagasaki was an act of terrorism and a crime against humanity. |
Spot on.
Fuck the US government. |
If no one has noticed if we get attacked (USA) our government masturbates screaming terrorism, but yet we evade other countries kill thousands and they call it a fight on terrorism. Fucking hypocrites. |
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-=Cartoon=-
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Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 12:08 Post subject: |
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im as anti american as the next guy
But fuck you can understand why they did it
And yes it was a civilian target.. but every single fucking country was doing it
The British/Usa were pounding Germany
The Germans were bombing the British
The Italians were bombing Ethiopia
The Japanese were fucking up Civilians left right and Centre
Personal View : The japanese were fucking deranged ... if anyone deserved it.. they did
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Parallax_
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Posts: 6422
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 12:11 Post subject: |
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| -=Cartoon=- wrote: | The British/Usa were pounding Germany
The Germans were bombing the British
The Italians were bombing Ethiopia
The Japanese were fucking up Civilians left right and Centre
Personal View : The japanese were fucking deranged ... if anyone deserved it.. they did |
Sorry, I don't play your key notes. No one but the US dropped a nuclear fucking bomb on so many civilian targets. Compared to everyone else it was off the scale to say it mildly. |
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 13:40 Post subject: |
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in 1945 the japanese army where saints when compared with today's islamic terror groups, and nobody in this planet, execpt perhaps GW Bush, even thinks of dropping a nuclear bomb above their heads.
imo there isn't any difference between what Hitler to the jews and what the U.S. did to the japanese, execpt the circunstancies and the number of victims.
Hitler killed about 6 million jews during the 6 years of the war, the U.S. killed 250 thousand japanese in a matter of seconds. 250 thousand if you ignore the close to 1 million persons that are still suffering from diseases related to radiation poisoning, and will continue to suffer for at least another generation.
and what the japanese did, was basicly trying to expand their territory, the only difference is that, when another nation tries to expand territory, we call it an act of war, but when the U.S. tries to expand their territory, we call it, war on terror or some other name that hides the true agenda behind the U.S. administration.
people can change the words however they want, but nothing changes the fact that what the U.S. did against japan in 1945 was a crime against humanity.
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poullou
Posts: 1746
Location: Internet Express
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 14:20 Post subject: |
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Let's reverse it: what if muslim fanatic groups started their 'jihad' years ago, with a nuclear bomb against civilians?
How can someone give credit to an action that erased 250,000 civilians within seconds? I know what US were trying to say by this move but, this surely wasn't one of their best choices. Japs were teh shitzors but...a nuke? Oh come on
Ἢ τὰν ἢ ἐπὶ τᾶς - Μολὼν λαβέ
Today is a gift. That's why it's called the present.
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kosmiq
Posts: 2304
Location: Somewhere
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 14:34 Post subject: |
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| poullou wrote: | Let's reverse it: what if muslim fanatic groups started their 'jihad' years ago, with a nuclear bomb against civilians?
How can someone give credit to an action that erased 250,000 civilians within seconds? I know what US were trying to say by this move but, this surely wasn't one of their best choices. Japs were teh shitzors but...a nuke? Oh come on |
Yeah regardless of what some people think and say dropping an A-bomb is is not excusable under any circumstances. It really is that simple.
Behold his GLORY! Bow for the technical master! |
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Godlikez*
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nouseforaname
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 17:14 Post subject: |
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Howard Zinn has written some pretty good stuff on this, I forgot where but it's somewhere in the Zinn Reader. He shows, using archives, how the bombing was not necessary.
| Quote: | | The full power of the bombs were still unknown at the time of their use, |
Got a source for that? They tested 'em plenty, they knew full well the power. Einstein et all were horrified at the thought of these weapons being used.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 18:56 Post subject: |
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| Parallax_ wrote: | | -=Cartoon=- wrote: | The British/Usa were pounding Germany
The Germans were bombing the British
The Italians were bombing Ethiopia
The Japanese were fucking up Civilians left right and Centre
Personal View : The japanese were fucking deranged ... if anyone deserved it.. they did |
Sorry, I don't play your key notes. No one but the US dropped a nuclear fucking bomb on so many civilian targets. Compared to everyone else it was off the scale to say it mildly. |
Not only that, we were the only country in the world with the industrial capacity at that time to wager ludicrous bombing campaigns against our enemies. No other countries could flatten cities the way we could 
| SpykeZ wrote: | | Parallax_ wrote: | | Ronhrin wrote: | | I mean, the U.S. was pissed off because of pearl harbor, a japanese attack to a military base, and then they strike back with the most powerful weapon knowned to man against two two civilian cities, the japanese attack to pearl harbor was an act of war, the american strike to hiroshima and nagasaki was an act of terrorism and a crime against humanity. |
Spot on.
Fuck the US government. |
If no one has noticed if we get attacked (USA) our government masturbates screaming terrorism, but yet we evade other countries kill thousands and they call it a fight on terrorism. Fucking hypocrites. |
+1
| kosmiq wrote: | | poullou wrote: | Let's reverse it: what if muslim fanatic groups started their 'jihad' years ago, with a nuclear bomb against civilians?
How can someone give credit to an action that erased 250,000 civilians within seconds? I know what US were trying to say by this move but, this surely wasn't one of their best choices. Japs were teh shitzors but...a nuke? Oh come on |
Yeah regardless of what some people think and say dropping an A-bomb is is not excusable under any circumstances. It really is that simple. |
In today's conditions... yes, but during the second world war? Things were different back then, a lot more desperate.
| Noob wrote: | Howard Zinn has written some pretty good stuff on this, I forgot where but it's somewhere in the Zinn Reader. He shows, using archives, how the bombing was not necessary.
| Quote: | | The full power of the bombs were still unknown at the time of their use, |
Got a source for that? They tested 'em plenty, they knew full well the power. Einstein et all were horrified at the thought of these weapons being used. |
They were horrified by the amount of firepower packed into one bomb. Little at that time did they know about the radioactive fallout. Even after the war, they were still experimenting with it. At one point, they ordered 5000 troops into some desert, made them dig trenches, and then detonated an A-Bomb over their head to see whether the radioactivity and/or huge explosion would be enough to kill them/make them an ineffective fighting force.
And yes, I will try to find sources for everything I just said.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 19:29 Post subject: Re: 62nd Anniversary of Hiroshima Nuclear Strike |
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| Ronhrin wrote: |
the japanese culture is, imo, the most complete culture in the world, either it's their pilosophy or their capacity to create or their way of live or their language or their food, or their cars, or their music, or their ANIME |
I only mean no offense, but you're only saying that because you're clouded with the images of anime. Any foreigner who has actually lived in Japan can tell you that a lot of them are xenophobic bastards who hate Koreans and many distrust white and especially black people.
They live in a stringent work-culture where salarymen leave at 7 am to come back home 9pm. Women, while being more and more represented, are still second class citizens to men in a lot of cases. A classic quote from a Japanese police chief "if you are raped, please try and enjoy it for the moment, it will make matters less complicated". A strong social hierarchy where people lower on the social order are obedient to those above them and those higher on the scale demeaning to those below them, which is integrated into their so-called 'complete culture'.
Many anime fans who actually lived in Japan for an extended period of years (as, for example, foreign language teachers) all lost those magical pink glasses. But I'm very sure you won't take my word for it - although I was there three years ago when I was an anime fan (and young).
Again, no offense to you! It's just many, many people have a very wrong impression of Japanese culture.
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 20:27 Post subject: |
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I'm aware of those points of their culture and their highly hierarchy society, but that kind of extremes only happen in great cities like tokyo and yokohama, and plus every nation has xenophobic bastards that hate the neighbor nation for whatever historical reasons, but despite of that exepctions and the matter of their highly hierarchy society, never forget that japan isn't a big country, and even so, their greatest cities are the most populated in the world, if you re aiming to find the worst of japanese society, you only need to go to one of their greatest cities, I had my uncle and my cousin living near sendai for almost a year, and they had nothing to complain, they had only good things to say about the people and societyy there, but when they went for only 3 weeks to osaka, they said it was like being in another country, people in the street where always rushing around and they felt really badly treated there, but the time that they spent in sendai was the best time of their lives. most of them are the most honorable people that you can ever meet in the world.
and what I was mentioning mainly in my first post was their rich culture, not much their society, their culture is the richest in the world, everywhere you go in the world you can find some japanese cultural influence, either art or food or philosophic or whatever.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 20:36 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: |
and what I was mentioning mainly in my first post was their rich culture, not much their society, their culture is the richest in the world, everywhere you go in the world you can find some japanese cultural influence, either art or food or philosophic or whatever. |
I guess I partially agree with you. However, I think the same goes up for many European countries. However, the reason you don't notice their cultural influences is because you're so accustomed to them, as if they're that of your own country!
But I do admit I misunderstood you. And I do agree that Japan is fantastic in that regard.
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slak
Posts: 248
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 22:04 Post subject: |
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| tainted4ever wrote: |
If we invaded the mainland how many of those civilians would have stayed civilians?
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In that case, it's ok to kill children too right? they might grow up to be soldiers?.
Idiot.
"Why not just shut up and have people only think you are a moron instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt." -Mark Twain
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Aug 2007 22:29 Post subject: |
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| slak wrote: | | tainted4ever wrote: |
If we invaded the mainland how many of those civilians would have stayed civilians?
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In that case, it's ok to kill children too right? they might grow up to be soldiers?.
Idiot. |
Don't put words in my mouth. If that kid is strapped in an explosive vest with a detonator in his hand and is running at your convoy screaming, by all means shoot him.
Besides, its not like you can hit an enemy country's factories without hitting its civilians. This is just another ugly event in an ugly war.
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