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fraich3
Posts: 2907
Location: Not from my mouth!
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 Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 22:52 Post subject: |
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You are making a waaay to big deal about this. If you dont want to use the bible once your in court then dont, none is making you.
"Zipfero is the biggest fucking golddigger ever" - Mutantius
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
Location: 51.7° N ' 1.1° W
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Macknu
Posts: 636
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 23:03 Post subject: |
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Its there becouse most western countrys are built on christian law and tradition, nowdays its there more becouse of tradition (like there's usually a bible in hotelrooms). Think most places it aint used anymore but some stick to tradition. When you swear to tell the truth you dont swear to god but to the court.
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
Location: 51.7° N ' 1.1° W
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 23:13 Post subject: |
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Ok one ..hotels are private businesses .. they can put any book they like in a hotel room .. I think
Two.. swearing to god dose not automatically mean swearing on a Christian bible .. if your swearing to god you can use a friken dollar bill ..
There is a fundamental difference .. one is just a reference to god .. a theoretical phenomena present among humans as a result of our awareness of something more than human awareness afoot ..
The bible is the backbone of Christianity .. for a judge to be representing the bible .. is for the legal establishment to be representing Christianity as the law of god ..
As if this notion of god being a big dude who tells humans what to do is reality or something .. do court judges indorse father Christmas & the tooth fairy too ?
Tell you the truth I would find that less offensive .. Christians are worse than people who insist the tooth fairy exists ..
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 23:41 Post subject: |
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But you're missing the end goal of an oath. It is to compel someone to tell the truth. Granted, in this day and age and probably in most others purger themselves under oath all the time. However, what is most sacred to a person is what needs to be used. In a majority Christian society, statistically this is a Bible.
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
Location: 51.7° N ' 1.1° W
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 23:48 Post subject: |
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How many people do you know go to church & worship a deity ? If its more than 5 out of 10 .. I will concede that the court where those people will be judged could potentially be swayed by religious rule .. yet don’t personally feel its good policy ..
anything else seems @ best .. misguided ..
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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Rinze
Site Admin
Posts: 2343
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Oct 2006 01:05 Post subject: |
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| skidrow wrote: | now that you mention it, yeah wtf is it doing there.
Religion and law shouldn't be together.
Law is serious, bible is fictional. |
I don't think law is any more serious than the bible.
Law books aren't written from real things that happened, they are made up as well. Works of fiction. It's just that a whole lot of people take them seriously.
And besides, law isn't about seriousness, it's an extortion scheme made by lawyers.
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Oct 2006 10:15 Post subject: |
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Most law doesn't dervie from lawyers!
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
Location: 51.7° N ' 1.1° W
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Oct 2006 12:11 Post subject: |
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Bonux
Posts: 98
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Oct 2006 22:36 Post subject: |
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| Esel_Gesi wrote: |
Sometimes I wonder if you Europeans think all Americans go to church everyday and with our spare time we just sit around thinking about killing brown people. |
You don't ? 
Fast Eddie was the best  |
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Oct 2006 22:50 Post subject: |
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| fraich3 wrote: | | You are making a waaay to big deal about this. If you dont want to use the bible once your in court then dont, none is making you. |
Actually that is not true. When I went to get my marriage license I was forced to swear on the bible. I told them I was an athiest and didn't want to swear on the bible. I was told I had no choice.
This was in Ottawa, Canada back in '91.
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| Posted: Tue, 31st Oct 2006 22:51 Post subject: |
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| Esel_Gesi wrote: | Bah, you guys are making too much of this. No one is preaching religion in the courtroom. It's just a silly outdated tradition but its really nothing to be too concerned with. There are bigger issues dealing with the separation of church and state i.e. the 10 commandments being displayed at a courthouse...
@nouse: is that Canada law that there are acceptable variations to swearing to tell the truth?
any knowledge about what the rules are for the states?
@buddy: America isnt the bible belt. There is a bible belt in america.
Sometimes I wonder if you Europeans think all Americans go to church everyday and with our spare time we just sit around thinking about killing brown people. |
I am pretty sure if you don’t want to swear on the bible you can swear on the Canadian flag. But ya, I have always felt the bible or Christianity never belonged in a court room. Christianity has never been fair to women for one. I had to go to court and testify. I had to swear on the bible. I remember thinking WTF am I doing.
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
Location: 51.7° N ' 1.1° W
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Nov 2006 00:15 Post subject: |
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mm its a very powerful symbol of power to be a part of the very affirmation of authority in our society .. & personally I don’t feel the Christian bible is any testament to the truth .. if anything its a testament to the power of lies .. we have grown out of needing to be told what to believe god is & how to address god .. I can swear to god in good faith .. without even a glimmer of Christian thought .. for me god is just where the buck stops .. & I respect the fact that I have to accept the will of the all .. I am not an island .. I’m just as accountable for my dishonesty as the next guy ..
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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kumkss
Posts: 4834
Location: Chile
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Nov 2006 00:20 Post subject: |
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all is tradition 
we don't use it, because, we have never used it. (not even when we were a province of the ultra catholic spanish kingdom)...
@pistol, i think Christianity is far more fair to women than any other ancient religions. I don't know about the women's role in Buddhism nor Confussian Philosophy. Nor Hinduism (i've got the sensation they looked at women as pleasure mashines...  ) Would be nice to know. But as Islam, be glad that you've been born in a Christian inspired state 
And back to topic, people that wants to swear having God as a testigue, should have that possibility, so as people who don't want to swear, and only "promise" which have the same valor in front of the common law.
Im frankly more conserned about those radical islams that pululate around, wearing their indecent costumes, profesing their fait in public with uncomprehensive language and sounds... than have a bible in a Court Room... really...
And, to have another point about the WHY is there a Bible in a Court room, don't forget that our laws and right come from ancient Rome (has nothing to do with China, as someone posted), and ancient Rome turned into Christianism smetime i could not remember, and they started to comment the laws, adding in them the Christian spirit. Justinianus (think it was) formed a recopilation of all them called Corpus Iuris Civilis which was spread around the west side of the Globe. England has become part of that tradition too, but somewhere in time, they mixed it whit their own uses and not written laws, making a huge diference between continental europe. That diference explains why the British Right, called Common Law, has no written laws. Is all about tradition. And continental europe and latin america has written laws, and a more "formalist" proccediment. The common law is FAR more traditional than our Right. So, don't expect that they will take off those bibles so easy!!
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed, 1st Nov 2006 01:51 Post subject: |
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Fuck...I cant remember what i swore on the last time i was in court...like a few months ago as a witness. I think it was a statement saying i swear to tell the truth and if i breach that contract im subject to prosecution. It was something like that.
I do remember refusing to swear on the bible.
Like nouse said, hustler, the bible, same shit. A trashy read.
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu, 2nd Nov 2006 01:25 Post subject: |
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| ChinUp wrote: | | SycoShaman wrote: | Fuck...I cant remember what i swore on the last time i was in court...like a few months ago as a witness. I think it was a statement saying i swear to tell the truth and if i breach that contract im subject to prosecution. It was something like that.
I do remember refusing to swear on the bible.
Like nouse said, hustler, the bible, same shit. A trashy read. |
right so, so long as the individual gets to choose .. who gives a shit ? .. This explains how this has gone on for so long .. people only give a shit about themselves .. & Christian religion enjoys a position of supremacy above all other religions .. in a justice department that is supposed to be representative of a secular state !! ..
Its no wonder people think your a Christian or an atheist .. the people are convinced that if your not a Christian you don’t believe in god, that you have to be a Christian to swear to god you wont lie ...  OWND ..
You wouldn’t know religious freedom if it bit you .. #1 god is to Christianity as food is to a cookbook .. you kick the cookbook to the curb .. food still exists .. |
Thats true. The part about if your not christian people think you dont believe in god.
My best friend, my closest friend still thinks I dont believe in god. He's a non practicing born again christian. Ive explained my beliefs to him atleast 100 times and occasionally when we drive by a church or something, he'll make a comment about me not believing in God.
Drives me fuckin nuts man
I dont understand how some people are so blind and stupid.
I have no problem with people believing in Christ. As long as your good, believe in whatever you want to imo. What I do have a problem with is the people who have been raised to believe 200% that the bible and christ and all that is fact and not myth.
Drives me fuckin crazy. Its one of the few things that can truly get me annoyed in an instant. |
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
Location: 51.7° N ' 1.1° W
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| Posted: Thu, 2nd Nov 2006 13:49 Post subject: |
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How the fuck can you swear on a book of law? What do you swear on? Blackstone's Criminal law statues? What 'book'? A constitution? Why would anyone hold the law in the same regard as the bible?
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Parallax_
VIP Member
Posts: 6422
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Thu, 2nd Nov 2006 13:52 Post subject: |
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I reckon you should swear with a lie-detector attached to your arm instead, much better.
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
Location: 51.7° N ' 1.1° W
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| Posted: Thu, 2nd Nov 2006 14:49 Post subject: |
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Yes, it makes great sense to swear on a 'book' of law!
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
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| Posted: Thu, 2nd Nov 2006 16:58 Post subject: |
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I refused to swear on the bible when I was on jury duty. Wasn't a big deal to anyone. I don't think bibles should be in courtrooms, nor should religion influence politics.
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
Location: 51.7° N ' 1.1° W
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| Posted: Thu, 2nd Nov 2006 22:26 Post subject: |
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| ChinUp wrote: | If folks are @ liberty to refuse to swear on a bible .. how come the people cant refuse to accept bibles in courtrooms ? Do Christians get preferential treatment ? Are we all supposed to take a back seat to what Christians want ?
Sounds like currently its a Christian court .. that lets non-Christians wave swearing on the bible .. my how good the Christians are to us non-Christians .. pfft .. as if the Christians own the law & courts or some such silliness ..
I don't think anyone has been brave enough to tell the Christians they aren't the authority on right & wrong, god or anything any more ..  |
Well, I suppose if someone out there could get a bill sponsored to remove bibles from courtrooms and have enough support (hah. Haaah) in the govt. to do so, then it would be done.
Preferential treatment? In court? I don't think so. Not in my experiences (on both sides of the gate ). The time I've spent in traffic court makes me think of court being nothing more than a revenue generating machine. No jury, just either plead you're innnocent or guilty, pay your money, and get out of there. Now, in criminal court, I don't know much about it as I've never had to serve on jury duty. When I was summoned, I was the first dismissed due to my opinions that I shared with the judge and lawyers.
But, I don't a judge would keep his job very long (at least where I live) if he were to say "what's that, you're not a christian? guilty" or "yes, you go to church, what a wonderful person, you'll get another chance."
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri, 3rd Nov 2006 01:46 Post subject: |
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| ChinUp wrote: | | RubberChicken wrote: | Replace the toiletpaper book with the book of law instead. fucking hyper christians packing this shit on us  |
in a nutshell .. well said ..
& sy .. you know why it is right ? .. because people go on letting Christian books & definitions for god take precedence over all other reference to religion & god ..
its a blindingly obvious sign of people being programmed by Christians when they call themselves atheist because they aren’t Christian .. as if the ONLY form of spirituality & belief in god existent was Christianity .. talk about getting a monopoly on peoples views on religion & god .. but that said .. I don’t see any reason for any books of religion having a position of authority in our judicial system .. whether you can wave it or not .. its not a friken library or a church .. kick that shit to the curb .. our courts are supposed to be secular .. not religious ..
swearing to god you wont lie .. is not a solely Christian thing to do .. you can believe in god without being a Christian .. even if Christians refuse to admit it ..
IMO all organized religions need to be down graded to cult movement .. enough is enough .. folks should be able to make a reference to god without being made to carry the baggage of a religion they have no interest in supporting .. no more official stamp for institutions of belief .. |
Exactly what ive been saying for years now.
All organized religion needs to be don with. Organized religion's sole purpose is control and manipulation.
I dont need a book to worship god. I dont need anything aside from my mind to worship god. If people put aside the fairy tales and thought logically, i think this world would be a safer and happier place |
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..
.. saying I swear to god that I wont lie .. is fine by me .. its not specific to any religion .. as soon as you put a specific religions book up as representative of god .. 
