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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
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 Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 12:45 Post subject: Bible in the courtroom ! |
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What is a religious text doing playing a role in our courts of LAW ?
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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HubU
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 12:50 Post subject: Re: Bible in the courtroom ! |
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| ChinUp wrote: | | What is a religious text doing playing a role in our courts of LAW ? |
People who consider this pile of shit a holy book swear on it that they don't lie.
"Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life." ~Berthold Auerbach
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 12:53 Post subject: |
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What are you talking about?
Anyway you do know that the law is based on Christian values. However changed to changed to fit the modern times.
However countries like the VS are a little behind on some issues.
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 12:56 Post subject: |
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ok that much I have gathered for myself .. now WTF is it doing there .. its not as if everyone who is subject to law .. is also a follower of the bible .. is it ? Is everyone a Christian .. whether we like it or not ?
Folks who are in places other than the US & the UK .. do your courts have bibles in them too ?
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 15:13 Post subject: |
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now that you mention it, yeah wtf is it doing there.
Religion and law shouldn't be together.
Law is serious, bible is fictional.
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Bonux
Posts: 98
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 15:34 Post subject: |
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I don't think any courts in Europe are using a book of fairy tales 
Fast Eddie was the best 
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 16:29 Post subject: |
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docertabum
Posts: 829
Location: Slovakia (not Slovenia :)
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 16:58 Post subject: |
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it is off-topic, but that thread reminds me something which said Noel Gallagher from Oasis
"Whenever there is a conservative, bible waving half-wit ruling in the White House - whether it's Bush, his father or Reagan - there is war."
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kumkss
Posts: 4834
Location: Chile
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 17:09 Post subject: |
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No bibles here... 
anyway, we live in a Christian Society and their values are in the laws spirit. A country should not forget that, (and that has nothing to do if there's a bible in the Court or not. Better that the Judge knows the bible, and act according to objective Justice Parameters, based in Christianity (an Islamic one find Justice in other parameters, incompatible in many cases with the Christian Parameters).
This has nothing to do with Postivisim. The Judge has to say the law, but with a Just Critera, based in Christianity and not in Scientology, Islamism, Judaism (a great part of it involved in Christianity), Buddhism or whatsoever. A sentence founded in Natural Equity does the Job. It implies that the Judge has mentaly searched for Just/Unjust critera, based in Christianity Values, nothing to do with religion.
I hope, this helps to understand why is a bible there. Understand it as a symbol, so as the Justice Lady is usualy blinded.
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 17:24 Post subject: |
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So Kumkss .. are you saying we are really living under a Theocracy .. we just arnt supposed to know it ..
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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Buddymander
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 18:27 Post subject: |
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I thought our justice system was mostly based on ancient Rome and China.
But really laws like not stealling and not killing existed long before Christianity came.
Its more about human values not religious ones.
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 18:37 Post subject: |
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| Buddymander wrote: | I thought our justice system was mostly based on ancient Rome and China.
But really laws like not stealling and not killing existed long before Christianity came.
Its more about human values not religious ones. |
No shit .. so WTF is a Christian book of worship to a deity .. doing playing a role in our courtrooms .. like Mr S said .. law is serious business ..
I thought it was only devout Christians who believed the bible was representative of truth ..
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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Buddymander
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 18:47 Post subject: |
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| ChinUp wrote: | | Buddymander wrote: | I thought our justice system was mostly based on ancient Rome and China.
But really laws like not stealling and not killing existed long before Christianity came.
Its more about human values not religious ones. |
No shit .. so WTF is a Christian book of worship to a deity .. doing playing a role in our courtrooms .. like Mr S said .. law is serious business ..
I thought it was only devout Christians who believed the bible was representative of truth .. |
Well how exactly did this whole bible thing come about?
I mean when did we start using the bible in the court room?
"goes off to search wikipedia"
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nouseforaname
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 18:57 Post subject: |
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you always have a choice anyways
| Quote: | In law, oaths are made by a witness to a court of law before giving testimony. Typically, they include a promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, "so help me God." The written equivalent is known as an affidavit. The oath given to support an affidavit is frequently administered by a notary public who will memorialize the giving of the oath by affixing his or her seal to the document. A variation in some jurisdictions is the statutory declaration. New government officers such as judges and elected politicians are often required to swear oaths to serve their state or country as well.
In cases where swearing is a problem, an affirmation can be usually substituted for the above cases. This alternative allows atheists and people whose religion does not allow them to swear to still testify and hold office. Affirmations are also used if appropriate sacred scriptures are not available; for instance, a Muslim would most likely affirm if a Qu'ran was not made available. The United States has permitted affirmations since it was founded; it is explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. Only two US Presidents, Franklin Pierce and Herbert Hoover, have chosen to affirm rather than swear at their inaugurations. Legal reforms in the 18th and 19th centuries in the United Kingdom allowed the usage of affirmations, as well. |
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Buddymander
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 19:02 Post subject: |
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| nouseforaname wrote: | you always have a choice anyways
| Quote: | In law, oaths are made by a witness to a court of law before giving testimony. Typically, they include a promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, "so help me God." The written equivalent is known as an affidavit. The oath given to support an affidavit is frequently administered by a notary public who will memorialize the giving of the oath by affixing his or her seal to the document. A variation in some jurisdictions is the statutory declaration. New government officers such as judges and elected politicians are often required to swear oaths to serve their state or country as well.
In cases where swearing is a problem, an affirmation can be usually substituted for the above cases. This alternative allows atheists and people whose religion does not allow them to swear to still testify and hold office. Affirmations are also used if appropriate sacred scriptures are not available; for instance, a Muslim would most likely affirm if a Qu'ran was not made available. The United States has permitted affirmations since it was founded; it is explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. Only two US Presidents, Franklin Pierce and Herbert Hoover, have chosen to affirm rather than swear at their inaugurations. Legal reforms in the 18th and 19th centuries in the United Kingdom allowed the usage of affirmations, as well. |
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Yeah but what will a jury think about your testimony if you refuse to swear on the bible?
Theres a good chance that the judge is a christian to.
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nouseforaname
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 19:08 Post subject: |
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| Buddymander wrote: | | nouseforaname wrote: | you always have a choice anyways
| Quote: | In law, oaths are made by a witness to a court of law before giving testimony. Typically, they include a promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, "so help me God." The written equivalent is known as an affidavit. The oath given to support an affidavit is frequently administered by a notary public who will memorialize the giving of the oath by affixing his or her seal to the document. A variation in some jurisdictions is the statutory declaration. New government officers such as judges and elected politicians are often required to swear oaths to serve their state or country as well.
In cases where swearing is a problem, an affirmation can be usually substituted for the above cases. This alternative allows atheists and people whose religion does not allow them to swear to still testify and hold office. Affirmations are also used if appropriate sacred scriptures are not available; for instance, a Muslim would most likely affirm if a Qu'ran was not made available. The United States has permitted affirmations since it was founded; it is explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. Only two US Presidents, Franklin Pierce and Herbert Hoover, have chosen to affirm rather than swear at their inaugurations. Legal reforms in the 18th and 19th centuries in the United Kingdom allowed the usage of affirmations, as well. |
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Yeah but what will a jury think about your testimony if you refuse to swear on the bible?
Theres a good chance that the judge is a christian to. |
I don't really think it will matter tbh ... maybe in retard country aka the bible belt.
I could care less if people swore on a playboy -- whatever makes the feel like they are compelled to tell the truth.
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Buddymander
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 19:18 Post subject: |
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| nouseforaname wrote: | | Buddymander wrote: | | nouseforaname wrote: | you always have a choice anyways
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Yeah but what will a jury think about your testimony if you refuse to swear on the bible?
Theres a good chance that the judge is a christian to. |
I don't really think it will matter tbh ... maybe in retard country aka the bible belt.
I could care less if people swore on a playboy -- whatever makes the feel like they are compelled to tell the truth. |
America is the bible belt, so how can it not matter?
Are there other countrys that use the bible for such things?
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nouseforaname
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 19:24 Post subject: |
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| Buddymander wrote: | | Are there other countrys that use the bible for such things? |
Canada, UK, not sure about the rest of EU
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 19:41 Post subject: |
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nouseforaname .. this to me isn’t so much about whether people have to put there hand on the bible .. its the symbolic message being sent by the justice department .. that the bible is as good as law .. that Christianity is superior to all other religions .. that the bible is synonymous with truth & justice ..
In the age of theocratic dominance .. this kind of association of religions belief & law being one in the same was commonplace & the people had no choice as to what they beloved .. The people had to be loyal to the bible .. to the church & to the leaders of the church .. bishops held the same authority as high court judges ..
Today we are supposed to have a division between church & state .. but its not real .. the old standards are still in place .. for a nation to become very theocratic all of a sudden would be very easy .. because the foundations are already in place ..
Call me paranoid if you like .. but shite law & the law that takes place in those southern states you speak of .. (I went to school in those states for a couple of years) .. are far too similar for comfort ..
We need to highlight these little things that are still reminiscent of a time when churches had the power to kill people for questioning their authority ... authority based on nothing more than guesses about what god is ..
You want to stop a weed from growing back .. you have to pull it out by the rootz
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
Last edited by ChinUp on Mon, 30th Oct 2006 19:43; edited 1 time in total
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Esel_Gesi
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 19:41 Post subject: |
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Bah, you guys are making too much of this. No one is preaching religion in the courtroom. It's just a silly outdated tradition but its really nothing to be too concerned with. There are bigger issues dealing with the separation of church and state i.e. the 10 commandments being displayed at a courthouse...
@nouse: is that Canada law that there are acceptable variations to swearing to tell the truth?
any knowledge about what the rules are for the states?
@buddy: America isnt the bible belt. There is a bible belt in america.
Sometimes I wonder if you Europeans think all Americans go to church everyday and with our spare time we just sit around thinking about killing brown people.
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 19:49 Post subject: |
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Esel .. I have lived all over the states .. Its quite true that the bible belt .. from south Carolina .. to Oklahoma .. is truly more severe than the rest of the states .. but a great deal of underlying loyalty to bibles & Christianity exists in official capacities ..
I feel that so long as bibles are present in courtrooms .. people will be being sent a message that the Christian bible is the truth .. I wonder how much coca cola would pay to have a can of coke offered to a witness every time they were about to address the court ..
Do you see the powerful association of power & authority .. from an advertising perspective .. getting a plug every time court is in session would be enough to give advertising giants palpitations of joy ..
Advertising uses commonly admired symbols to forward there product .. & the justice department is a pretty big endorsement .. by no means nothing to be worried about ..
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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nouseforaname
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nouseforaname
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 20:38 Post subject: |
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nouseforaname
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 21:03 Post subject: |
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Our legal system isn't as much based on Christianity, it has Judio/christian content of course. But do not kill, do not rape aren't exclusively of Christian domain. Our legal system also has the separation of law and morality at it's core and it derives from the common law of man kind. Since Aristotle and before him jurists have been arguing over the points of natural law versus positivism but it it's core our legal system isn't religious. It's a system of rules about rules. The substantive law has a capitalist slant of course, and it's only in very narrow areas such as assisted suicide and abortion where Christian values rare their head.
And taking an oath on the bible has no effect on religion and law.
If you're interested in the origins of law, should check out H.L.A Hart's Concept of Law. Surprisingly Pyotr Kropotkin has also done some good work about the common law our systems originate from, more of which can be found out in this paper which provides quite a good summing up of the different theories of the origins of law.
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 21:31 Post subject: |
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Actually I don’t feel origins of law have anything to do with this .. to me its about the endorsement to Christianity that’s occurring as a result of the judgment of truth & justice occurring with the bible as whitness .. as if it was some icon of truth & justice or some such silliness ..
the time that everyone swore by the bible should be over .. religious preference has no place in a court room .. today to involve any religious law is very very suspect .. as a result of having to lay clear lines of religion vs state ..
its not a library .. its a courtroom .. a courtroom should by no means resemble a place of worship .. & the bible needs to be kicked to the curb for a court to be truly a just judge of truth before the people ..
I for one don’t trust someone who would listen to a bible before the testimony before them to conduct just decisions in this day & age ..
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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Cohen
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 21:48 Post subject: |
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0mgzzz1 he swordz0rz on the bibleage soz he must be telling ZE TRUTHTHZZZ OMFGZZZ!!!11one
^ US court room peoples
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 22:32 Post subject: |
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I really dont have a problem with it. It's a symbol, and that symbol is changed if the person wants it. [see the wiki quote above]
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Oct 2006 22:51 Post subject: |
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I don’t see how you can pay such allegiance to a book that represents Christianities creed .. having pride of place in the highest authority we are subject too ..
Replace it with a flag or something .. launch that old religious mumbo-jumbo from the bench .. really .. Christian preachers are big headed enough .. without getting the justice departments endorsement every day ..
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
Last edited by ChinUp on Mon, 30th Oct 2006 22:53; edited 2 times in total
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