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 Posted: Mon, 19th Jun 2006 23:20 Post subject: |
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| Sublime wrote: | So people with disabilities are a burden? You can't really say someone with a severe disease / health problem are a benefit to society. Should these be exterminated, because no labour camp can correct these?
People do get rehabilitated. It's called Prison. These effects don't work as well as they should, but they fit into quite a lot of the categories you mention; working for the state, producing goods. I don't see how working on a brainless production line will teach these people about morals and the real world. What it will do is keep the drug abusers off the drugs but it won't stop their cravings if they ever got out. |
You got a point there. People who are physical or psychologal impaired are in the end a burden, but they do not commit crimes or break any laws (well, in some cases, but it's most likley that these people never will get out of it).
I don't know about the prisons where you live, but the inmates actually get paid over here and the goods are not being used for state profit. Of course should there be some kind of rehabilitation aswell, but putting people in situations where they feel uncomfortable and lost for a long time may not stop them from commiting crimes, but on the other hand - todays prisons are working in the same way but they are more "pleasant". In other words: rehabilitation by terror. I dare to say that you never ever will be a target of crime in North Korea, that's the safest place to be if you want to feel safe from crimes. North Korea are controlling their people with a strong military presence, though they have gone too far. It was the same in Spain in the 40's-60's when Civila Guardia were active. Sometimes we have to trade something away to gain another thing, we can't have it all.
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Mutantius
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Location: In Elektro looking for beans
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| Posted: Mon, 19th Jun 2006 23:23 Post subject: |
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I would never let my freedom come into negotiation like that. Being controlled by fascists military which daily patrols the streets might reduce crime but in the end it only produce fear among the citizens and in the end be a burden instead of a godsend.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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| Posted: Mon, 19th Jun 2006 23:32 Post subject: |
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| Mutantius wrote: | | I would never let my freedom come into negotiation like that. Being controlled by fascists military which daily patrols the streets might reduce crime but in the end it only produce fear among the citizens and in the end be a burden instead of a godsend. |
True, especially if it works with the North Korean family-punishment system. Which simply means that if your child commit a crime, the whole family will get the same sentence. I'm not saying there should be total control, but it should be increased. The people should have adequate elbowroom to swing around, but in the end, man can not be judge, but the state only. Total control will bring a country down really fast as it only benefit the leader.
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| Posted: Mon, 19th Jun 2006 23:40 Post subject: |
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The prisons do make stuff to sell. And what's beyond them from making stuff like trainers? I know that necklaces and other stuff are made in prisons and prisoners get paid a tiny amount which is hardly worth anything by the time they leave.
You mention north Korea as if it sets the standard. Well if you ask me i'd much rather live in south Korea wouldn't you? It's weird because I watched this video only a few days ago ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6951629397402742053 ) and it highlighted some stuff I never knew.
People with mental illnesses can live a normal life but it only takes a moment of madness for anyone to commit a crime. Some things should be punished but to have a family punished by an act of impulse is so silly. Not to mention with crazy charges already being handed out as they are.
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue, 20th Jun 2006 00:04 Post subject: |
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Discrimination against ppl with mental disabilities is discrimination. No other way of looking at it.
ppl in need should be helped and junkies and other such ppl are within reach. all it takes is understanding, kindness and acceptance.
Its sad ppl are willing to discard 'the useless'. Life is special, every life. If someone can be helped, they should be, no questions about it.
I dont understand such attitudes. How could you not want to help a fellow human being that is need? Thats what humanity and being human is all about. Helping and caring for those around you, acting for the greater good at a cost (even if its minimal) to yourself etc
Race, creed, nationality, society status etc shouldnt make a difference when it comes to helping someone.
In my opinion anyway....
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| Posted: Tue, 20th Jun 2006 00:40 Post subject: |
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| Sublime wrote: | The prisons do make stuff to sell. And what's beyond them from making stuff like trainers? I know that necklaces and other stuff are made in prisons and prisoners get paid a tiny amount which is hardly worth anything by the time they leave.
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Though I meant more like working with improvements and/or tasks that would help out the state and society economically. Sure, the state can sell stuff like that. I don't really know how to put it, but something that got a higher value.
| Sublime wrote: |
You mention north Korea as if it sets the standard. Well if you ask me i'd much rather live in south Korea wouldn't you? It's weird because I watched this video only a few days ago ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6951629397402742053 ) and it highlighted some stuff I never knew.
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North Korea just popped up in my head, couldn't really think of any other authorian state which is similair to what I'm trying to explain. The reason I wouldn't want to live in north is because of their idea of the whole thing. They are following the doctrine of juche and communism but it has turned out to be stalinism. Though I do like some aspects of their system. Socialism is the last thing this world needs right now, especially the western countries. If I have to answer right now, I'd rather live in south than north mainly because of their ideology.
Yes, that documentory is a really good one. Thank you for the link, I have actually been looking for it. Saw it in school some time ago but I couldn't find it. North Korea have failed a long time ago, but they refuse to see it. Their population are starving and they have alot of material shortage aswell as resources. Eventually they will come crawling begging to help them out when their storage is empty.
| Sublime wrote: |
People with mental illnesses can live a normal life but it only takes a moment of madness for anyone to commit a crime. Some things should be punished but to have a family punished by an act of impulse is so silly. Not to mention with crazy charges already being handed out as they are. |
Yes, some can and some can't have a normal life. I'm having a hard time to believe that anyone of you want to have mentally ill people walking around that might snap any minute. Ordinary people may do that aswell, but it doesn't happen alot, fotunatley. Some crimes should have higher punishment than others, of course, and punish a whole family seems wrong to me too. It is the individual, not the grey masses.
| SycoShaman wrote: |
Discrimination against ppl with mental disabilities is discrimination. No other way of looking at it.
ppl in need should be helped and junkies and other such ppl are within reach. all it takes is understanding, kindness and acceptance.
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We have tried to understand them, we have tried to accept, we have tried to be kind but they keep rolling. Try giving a dog some food, then try to take it away, the dog will start to growl. If they do something bad against society, society have to do something bad to them, to make them feel they are alive.
| SycoShaman wrote: |
Its sad ppl are willing to discard 'the useless'. Life is special, every life. If someone can be helped, they should be, no questions about it.
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I'm not saying it's bad to help people out. We should try to save those who can be saved. Some people simply refuse to see when they need help. If they won't accept it, it's nothing we can do about it than to force them. If we can't help them, they will be in their addiction and therefor useless. All they do is to be around doing "bad" things.
| SycoShaman wrote: |
I dont understand such attitudes. How could you not want to help a fellow human being that is need? Thats what humanity and being human is all about. Helping and caring for those around you, acting for the greater good at a cost (even if its minimal) to yourself etc
Race, creed, nationality, society status etc shouldnt make a difference when it comes to helping someone.
In my opinion anyway....
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Humans are animals, we are not around to help, we are around to reproduce and try to do the best of our lives, humans are rather egoistic if it comes down to evolutionary level. Though I get your point. Todays society is well developed and nations have popped up like fungus, races have been at war trying to decide which one of them is the strongest. Caring is important, without it I don't think we would have made it this far. But you can't care about everyone. You have to care about those with potential to do something good and get back on their feet once they got your help.
Finally I'd just want to point out that I appreciate that you're having this discussion with me. Too many people are just being plain stupid and acting on a really low level because they don't know what it's all about. Apparently they think things will be better if they just call someone "jackass" or something instead of actually trying to have a discussion and to see both sides of the coin.
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SycoShaman
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Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue, 20th Jun 2006 00:50 Post subject: |
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@Bag
I see what your sayin. and yeah, sometimes i feel the same way you do...but wouldnt you say its more about anger? misdirected anger.
If we dont take the time and such to help these less fortunate ppl, what does that say about us? Sure, it makes more sense to invest resources into someone with potential. But how do you know what someone's capable of if they are never given a chance to succeed.
I agree, there are some ppl who cant be helped. But they are few and far between. Most street ppl ive known are just unlucky ppl. Someone were straight laced to..most were addicts, but still, ive met some who were simply unlucky in life and wanted help.
Thats where the compassion comes into play. Compassion is an essential part of being human.
And there is something satisfying about helping those in need. Help comes in all forms to. a smile, a blanket, a tshirt, a sandwich etc
Its the governments who keep the poor, poor. Think about it. Take my country, Canada. If everyone gave 1 dollar a day (so 365 dollars a year) toward the homeless, we could eradicate poverty in this country. We have roughly 30 million ppl i think. So 365 x 30 million....it would take one year to do it...to eradicate poverty. You cant give up $1 a day? A dollar a day is nothing to me. not even a cup of coffee.
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| Posted: Tue, 20th Jun 2006 00:57 Post subject: |
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| Bagshatar wrote: | | I'd rather live in south than north mainly because of their ideology. |
Their ideology is western though. |
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nouseforaname
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Posts: 21306
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue, 20th Jun 2006 05:17 Post subject: |
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| SycoShaman wrote: | | Its the governments who keep the poor, poor. Think about it. Take my country, Canada. If everyone gave 1 dollar a day (so 365 dollars a year) toward the homeless, we could eradicate poverty in this country. We have roughly 30 million ppl i think. So 365 x 30 million....it would take one year to do it...to eradicate poverty. You cant give up $1 a day? A dollar a day is nothing to me. not even a cup of coffee. |
I hate to be a bastard, especially when someone is arguing against a facist.
But, we are far from taking care or acting responsibly toward our homeless in this country ...
http://www.housingnow.ca/english/index.asp
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SycoShaman
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue, 20th Jun 2006 20:43 Post subject: |
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| nouseforaname wrote: | | SycoShaman wrote: | | Its the governments who keep the poor, poor. Think about it. Take my country, Canada. If everyone gave 1 dollar a day (so 365 dollars a year) toward the homeless, we could eradicate poverty in this country. We have roughly 30 million ppl i think. So 365 x 30 million....it would take one year to do it...to eradicate poverty. You cant give up $1 a day? A dollar a day is nothing to me. not even a cup of coffee. |
I hate to be a bastard, especially when someone is arguing against a facist.
But, we are far from taking care or acting responsibly toward our homeless in this country ...
http://www.housingnow.ca/english/index.asp |
i didnt say we were man. I said imagine if everyone gave $1 a day toward the the eradication of poverty in Canada. We'd eradicate poverty in under 3 years (atleast, with that kinda money you think it would be a quick process).
It wont happen tho. Which is sad |
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| Posted: Tue, 20th Jun 2006 23:47 Post subject: |
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| SycoShaman wrote: | @Bag
I see what your sayin. and yeah, sometimes i feel the same way you do...but wouldnt you say its more about anger? misdirected anger.
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I agree, there are anger mixed with abhoration. But we shouldn't accept deviants, people who commits severe crimes in this case. Also it's the goal of a safer society. I don't really care if someone grab a joint, as long as they don't make society go backward while trying to get money for the next load of pot.
| SycoShaman wrote: |
If we dont take the time and such to help these less fortunate ppl, what does that say about us? Sure, it makes more sense to invest resources into someone with potential. But how do you know what someone's capable of if they are never given a chance to succeed.
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That's the difficult part, to find out who are potential and not. Spending money on rehabilitation for people who gets back to the addiction is worthless. There are millions of unfortunate people out there, but we can't help them all, it's too much. If we are going to help them they have got to show any sign of self-discipline aswell. He or she have to have the will to get out of their current situation and to get hold of a new life.
| SycoShaman wrote: |
I agree, there are some ppl who cant be helped. But they are few and far between. Most street ppl ive known are just unlucky ppl. Someone were straight laced to..most were addicts, but still, ive met some who were simply unlucky in life and wanted help.
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Those who really wants the help are those who lost their jobs, families and homes. They are the ones trying to get back. The heroin abuser on the other hand comes into euphoria when they get their fix and they don't want to get rid of that feeling which makes them go back to square one again. I don't want any homeless people on the streets, I don't think anyone want. It's about making the machinery go smoother and sometimes it needs radical solutions.
| SycoShaman wrote: |
Thats where the compassion comes into play. Compassion is an essential part of being human.
And there is something satisfying about helping those in need. Help comes in all forms to. a smile, a blanket, a tshirt, a sandwich etc
Its the governments who keep the poor, poor. Think about it. Take my country, Canada. If everyone gave 1 dollar a day (so 365 dollars a year) toward the homeless, we could eradicate poverty in this country. We have roughly 30 million ppl i think. So 365 x 30 million....it would take one year to do it...to eradicate poverty. You cant give up $1 a day? A dollar a day is nothing to me. not even a cup of coffee. |
It really is satisfying, atleast when you hand the thing over yourself, eventhough I don't give money to the beggars I see when I visit the capital, though there aren't many of them out in daylight. I don't mainly because I don't know what they'll do with my money. If they (or their sign) say(s) they want food, I'd rather give them a hamburger than a coin. But when donating money you can't see the appreciation of the people who gets your help. Besides, if you give, say $100 to Red Cross, they got the full right to just give 10% of the money to the ones in need, atleast over here. To be honest, I have never donated through any kind of organization so far.
To give up $1 per day is not alot of money, but there are still more important matters to be concerned of aswell, I get your meaning, but things are not as easy as they sound. This might be some unnecessary "propaganda", but implementing corpartism such as in the fascist doctrine it will create more jobs. The idea of the state owning any major corporations such as Coca Cola, Microsoft, Shell and so on will make people have to pay less tax, and if the state owns it they will be able to give people jobs and therefor homes. If the state is in a good state, it can prevent alot of things, such as crimes.
| Sublime wrote: |
Their ideology is western though.
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Ok, I'm sorry, but I really lost you there. Been thinking but I can't decide whether you meant north- or south Korea.
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