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Dromaium
Banned
Posts: 462
Location: I don't identify as Banned, Ronhrin, Citizen.
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 Posted: Tue, 5th Sep 2023 23:21 Post subject: |
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| Nalo wrote: | | Dromaium wrote: | | Nalo wrote: |
In many scenarios demonstrating a single falsehood proves an unequivocal truth:
All blargs are red.
Someone finds a blue blarg.
Therefore it is true that not all blargs are red.
Belief is a necessary experience for non-omniscient beings. |
What truth have you proven with your example?
Quite the opposite really, the assumption that people had that all blargs were red was then falsified, and now blargs can be at least blue or red. There is no absolute truth that you can derive from that, only a continuous process of elimination of falsehoods, a never ending triage if you will.
Regarding your second statement, that is false, I for one live my life without having a single belief about anything, and if anything I am more crystalized and objective that most of the people I ever came accross. |
You don't believe we are having this conversation right now? Anyway in order to function in daily life we must have a multitude of implicit beliefs about reality. Your statement that you live your life without having a single belief is itself a belief. |
No, I have no belief, I have an experience that I assume is likely.
I preemted your reply in my previous edit.
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Dromaium
Banned
Posts: 462
Location: I don't identify as Banned, Ronhrin, Citizen.
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| Posted: Tue, 5th Sep 2023 23:21 Post subject: |
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| Dromaium wrote: |
And now you are going to say that I believe in the laws of physics, or in the mechanics of my cars, or in the infrastructure of the internet, or that when I flip the switch the light will turn on.
I believe in nothing, all I have is a previous experience that everytime I did X, Y happened, but I don't believe it, I don't have an expectation that reality will always behave the same way solely because it has always operated in a certain way in the past. |
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13515
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| Posted: Tue, 5th Sep 2023 23:22 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 05:33; edited 3 times in total
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13515
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| Posted: Tue, 5th Sep 2023 23:27 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 05:33; edited 3 times in total
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Dromaium
Banned
Posts: 462
Location: I don't identify as Banned, Ronhrin, Citizen.
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| Posted: Tue, 5th Sep 2023 23:37 Post subject: |
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| Nalo wrote: | | So you're doing the classic Humean move and claiming that there is no necessary connection between events, only constant conjunction. But that is not how people actually live their lives. Theory doesn't show what you really believe, action does. |
Not exactly in the way David Hume would argue, but somewhat convergent with his thinking yes.
On the contrary, people are mostly hypocrites and more often than not act in opposition with their own beliefs.
Don't invoque some Batman way of thinking "it's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you", that way of thinking makes no sense and is one of the main reasons of the interpersonal misunderstandings between peoples.
People are not their actions, not their status, not their condition, there is an untranslated vastness inside everyone. You cannot reduce a person to his actions.
My pronouns are:
Ask me that question again and I will make you change yours!
Last edited by Dromaium on Tue, 5th Sep 2023 23:47; edited 1 time in total
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Dromaium
Banned
Posts: 462
Location: I don't identify as Banned, Ronhrin, Citizen.
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| Posted: Tue, 5th Sep 2023 23:39 Post subject: |
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| Nalo wrote: | | You're more postmodern than I remember |
It was 12 years ago, my thinking has changed a lot.
My pronouns are:
Ask me that question again and I will make you change yours!
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13515
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| Posted: Wed, 6th Sep 2023 19:59 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 05:33; edited 3 times in total
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Dromaium
Banned
Posts: 462
Location: I don't identify as Banned, Ronhrin, Citizen.
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| Posted: Wed, 6th Sep 2023 20:17 Post subject: |
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| Nalo wrote: | | Dromaium wrote: | | Nalo wrote: | | So you're doing the classic Humean move and claiming that there is no necessary connection between events, only constant conjunction. But that is not how people actually live their lives. Theory doesn't show what you really believe, action does. |
Not exactly in the way David Hume would argue, but somewhat convergent with his thinking yes.
On the contrary, people are mostly hypocrites and more often than not act in opposition with their own beliefs.
Don't invoque some Batman way of thinking "it's not who you are underneath, it's what you do that defines you", that way of thinking makes no sense and is one of the main reasons of the interpersonal misunderstandings between peoples.
People are not their actions, not their status, not their condition, there is an untranslated vastness inside everyone. You cannot reduce a person to his actions. |
But of course I didn't mean to imply some vague and superficial trope that is seen in Hollywood films. Neither did I say that people are their actions, but rather that their actions often reveal their true beliefs. So despite your explicit assertions about not having any beliefs whatsoever, your daily experience is actually full of presuppositions (things that you tacitly believe) and this is a fact belied through your acts. Take pain for example. You believe that certain actions will result in the experience of pain and so you avoid those actions. These beliefs are formed by past experiences and are based on probability. You believe the sun will rise tomorrow because of past experience. Even if you deny this you still continue to act like the sun will rise tomorrow |
This is a debate mostly about semantics, language is not precise enough to differentiate between certain terms.
The issue here is how we internally process the world.
On the surface we behave in certain ways because we expect nature to continue opetaring from the same principles as before. That is what I define as acting from experience.
When it comes to belief, there is always a fundamental expectation in which nature ought to keep abiding to our previous experiences.
The difference is subtle but a very important one.
When you flip the switch or turn your engine on, there isn't a necessity for belief, for habit certainly but not belief. Since belief requires a worldview or at the very least a subjective preference or expectation towards a certain conclusion.
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13515
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| Posted: Wed, 6th Sep 2023 20:57 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 05:33; edited 4 times in total
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Dromaium
Banned
Posts: 462
Location: I don't identify as Banned, Ronhrin, Citizen.
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| Posted: Wed, 6th Sep 2023 21:26 Post subject: |
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| Nalo wrote: | @Dromaium
After starting the car engine you hold the belief that the car engine is running. You cannot say you know because it could be an illusion, or you might be imagining it. You don't have absolute certainty about anything. But it would be ridiculous to live life like this and second guess every action, so we allow ourselves the freeing act of belief to save time and energy. Belief here is like a reduction of information, a dumbing down of the real. In fact only an overthinker could really come up with such a stultifying perspective. It is the curse of the philosopher to problamatize reality, instead of taking it in stride. The average person doesn't think about noumenal realms and whatnot. There is also wisdom in common sense. Philosophy produces some of the smartest dumb people you will ever encounter.
I'm saying some thing should be taken at face value and that resorting to semantics is a bad sign. |
That is not belief, that is practicality. The minimization of thought or action, belief is everything that requires a state of active conviction.
There can never be wisdom in common sense, when you deconstruct what is granted as common sense you will almost always discover that common sense is undoubtedly falacious in its most fundamental principles.
I give you a personal example, when I left this forum, through years of trial and error I became a very consistent trader. And throughout the years I came to a realization that even I became conflited in acknowledging.
The fact that fundamentals are completely unrelated to price action.
Now, the common sense tells most people that if there is some unfavourable news event or situation with a company, it will negatively affect price for example. This is such an intrisic aspect of common sense that even in a news piece there is always this implicit forced correlation between fundamentals and price.
Now, the truth is that there is no correlation whatsoever between price and economic fundamentals. This might seem a highly counterintuitive statement but it is nonetheless completely in opposition wiith common sense beliefs.
Last edited by Dromaium on Thu, 7th Sep 2023 00:23; edited 2 times in total
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| Posted: Wed, 6th Sep 2023 21:54 Post subject: |
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I didn't read any of that but I have a feeling there's handjobs involved from the sound of it.
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Dromaium
Banned
Posts: 462
Location: I don't identify as Banned, Ronhrin, Citizen.
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| Posted: Wed, 6th Sep 2023 21:56 Post subject: |
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| FireMaster wrote: | | I didn't read any of that but I have a feeling there's handjobs involved from the sound of it. |
??
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| Posted: Wed, 6th Sep 2023 22:19 Post subject: |
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| Dromaium wrote: | | FireMaster wrote: | | I didn't read any of that but I have a feeling there's handjobs involved from the sound of it. |
?? |
 Spoiler: | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_jerk
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13515
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| Posted: Thu, 7th Sep 2023 10:23 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 05:33; edited 3 times in total
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Dromaium
Banned
Posts: 462
Location: I don't identify as Banned, Ronhrin, Citizen.
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| Posted: Thu, 7th Sep 2023 11:42 Post subject: |
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| Nalo wrote: | | Dromaium wrote: |
That is not belief, that is practicality. The minimization of thought or action, belief is everything that requires a state of active conviction. |
It's practical to have beliefs about reality. Seems more likely that practicality is the underlying motivation for belief. Well, some forms of belief (not very practical to believe the moon is inhabited by aliens).
| Dromaium wrote: |
There can never be wisdom in common sense, when you deconstruct what is granted as common sense you will almost always discover that common sense is undoubtedly falacious in its most fundamental principles. |
I said there is some wisdom to be found in common sense but here you have made a universal assertion about it. Such a claim is clearly unfalsifiable given the impossibility of analyzing all examples of common sense. Isn't this therefore "active conviction" on your part? A belief about all common knowledge.
I Don't think your example is common knowledge either. Common knowledge amongst traders, at most. |
We are using the same word to describe different principles.
Pratical beliefs such as "believing" in gravity, or "believing" that the sun will rise the next day is a very different monster than believing in god, the afterlife, democracy or the law. This is why I argue language is very limiting, belief when it deals with passive concepts or the facts of day to day actions I don't define as belief, but more like a toughtless reaction to the world. When I argue belief I'm strictly referring to all ideias or ideals that we actively think about or defend.
Regarding the second paragraph, I didn't make an absolute statement, merely addressing the norm that when we try to deconstruct statements derived from common knowledge, in my personal experience we always end up realizing that we had a falacious piece of wisdom to begin with.
About my example I think I wasn't clear enough. Isn't it common wisdom in movies, news articles or even daily conversations to hear people say things of the sort: "the market has fallen due to the pandemic" / "the crypto market pumped due to Elon Musks tweets". Even in movies is an overwhelmingly common trope to have that scene where the market is crashing because of some scandal within a company.
What I was referring was to that type of common knowledge which is absolutely falacious when one understands the markets.
My pronouns are:
Ask me that question again and I will make you change yours!
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