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 Posted: Tue, 28th Dec 2021 12:11 Post subject: |
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Alright, but that doesn't answers the important question: Will i see benefits with it compared to my SATA SAMSUNG EVO 860 when used as main OS (While the actual OS SSD would be used for backup /after format purposes later) ?
ASUS X570 TUF GAMING PLUS, 32GB DDR4@2666 ,RYZEN 5800X3D (NO OC),GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Super GAMING OC, Western Digital Blue 4TB 5400RPM + SAMSUNG 860 EVO 500+1TB GB SSDs , OEM SATA DVD 22xNoctua NH-D15 Chromax Black, BenQ XL2420T Case: Be Quiet! DARK BASE PRO 901. PSU CORSAIR RM1200 SHIFT
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue, 28th Dec 2021 12:17 Post subject: |
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Probably not. At least in my own experience, and my friends that owns as PC store in Ohio discussing drive types and what he has seen over all the builds he has done over a huge range of parts.
Benchmarks and 'look at the big numbers!' diskmark screens, yea a difference. General usage and gaming? Not so much.
The processing/memory/cpu time to load windows is far longer than the time to get that data off of either.
I switched from SSD to dual m.2 and literally could not tell the difference in bootimes. If you snuck in an did it while I was sleeping, Id have no idea it was a different drive.
Only reason I went m.2 for 2 of them is I have an ITX build and only room for 2 SSD in the case (so 4 drives total).
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Tue, 28th Dec 2021 15:25 Post subject: |
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anyone here running ssds in raid 0 or raid 0+1 ? worth the hassle ?
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue, 28th Dec 2021 16:16 Post subject: |
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My 2 2.5" SSD drives are in 0 just for the hell of it since it's just games on it.
Can't see a difference other than in benchmarks.
Any game I load from it, its my game drive for steam/epic/xbox store, loads about the same or close enough.
It might be SLIGHTLY faster (or hell SLIGHTLY slower for all I know) since it's so close to what I was use to with the separate ones, that I dont notice anything different.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Frant
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| Posted: Wed, 29th Dec 2021 00:31 Post subject: |
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| DV2 wrote: | | Alright, but that doesn't answers the important question: Will i see benefits with it compared to my SATA SAMSUNG EVO 860 when used as main OS (While the actual OS SSD would be used for backup /after format purposes later) ? |
I notice a difference when loading programs off my nvme drive. It's a bit snappier and games like Forza Horizon 5 loads quite a bit faster since it loads a lot of data into memory and caching stuff on the drive which is used throughout the game.
Booting on the other hand is a tedious process that isn't dependent on drive speed since the boot up process is doing so much that isn't disk I/O dependent which is where most of the time from POST to signing in to Windows is spent. But yeah, reading/writing normal apps etc. feels snappier and reading a lot of sequental or random data shortens the time it takes to complete the task. After all, comparing the numbers tells you at least something, taking my previous and current drive stats as an example:
Samsung 840 EVO specs:
Max Sequential Read = 540 MB/s (max speed, unlikely to go past ~480MB/s due to overhead etc.)
Max Sequential Write = 520 MB/s (same as above).
Max 4KB Random Read = 97,000 IOPS (how many read operations per second it can do)
Max 4KB Random Write = 66,000 IOPS (how many write operations per second it can do)
Higher IOPS = faster read/write speeds and lower latency.
Since we're mainly doing Random reads/writes our average read/write performance won't get close to the sequential numbers. It also depends on free space on the SSD. Having less than 50% free space will affect the performance negatively.
Samsung 980 specs (this is an entry level drive with no DRAM cache, instead using HBM where it use a bit of system memory as cache instead to keep the price low):
Max Sequential Read = 3,500 MB/s
Max Sequential Write = 3,000 MB/s
Max Random Read = 500,000 IOPS
Max Random Write = 480,000 IOPS
That is an increase of 629% increase in sequential read speeds and a 477% increase in sequential write speeds. Bigger M.2 SATA/PCie drives give better performance.
SATA 3 controller/ports maxes out at 600 MB/s
PCIe x4 maxes out at 3,940 MB/s
Overall it's a good investment for a system drive and/or more time critical/large data applications like Audio Workstations (which is streaming from/to disk etc.) or loading/saving big RAW/Highres Photoshop (or similar) images or running a database. There are other user cases as well, it depends on your usage. If you get a 500-1TB M.2. PCIe drive as system drive you can/should partition it to ~150-200GB for Windows and normal applications and the second partition for games or big data stuff.
When you partition the drive, always leave 8-10 percent of the space after the partitions unallocated since it will keep the performance at peak and increase the lifetime of your drive as well.
It's also conventient since you have two extra drive ports if your motherboard has two M.2 PCIe slots and you buy M.2 PCIe drives (not M.2. SATA drives since at least one of those M.2 slots in SATA mode will disable one of your normal SATA ports).
That creates the possibility to run the system etc. on M.2 PCIe drives and running a good RAID setup on the SATA ports.
In the end it depends on how you use your computer. If you use I/O intensive/large size applications (incl. games) you'll notice a big difference while you'll generally notice a modest difference in typical windows use loading apps etc.
DXWarlock is comparing to a SATA 3 RAID 0 setup with two drives which is obviously nearly twice as fast as a single SATA SSD.
In comparison you can use two M.2. PCIe drives in RAID 0 as well to nearly double the speed of your nVME storage but personally I feel it's pointless in a typical desktop unless you're using it as a workstation for some serious work like GB-sized editing of photos, film data etc. where I/O is extremely important.
Windows is unfortunately impairing the performance with Windows Security running Real-time protection which works as a moderate bottleneck. Turning it off will be temporary since it will turn itself on again. Other antivirus solutions that are actively scanning will also affect performance by scanning files in Real-time as you read/write files.
Your general computer performance (CPU & DRAM performance) will also affect performance of disk I/O.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
Last edited by Frant on Wed, 29th Dec 2021 01:11; edited 1 time in total
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Wed, 29th Dec 2021 01:11 Post subject: |
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I've not been following Windows news in recent months. Has Microsoft released DirectStorage yet? Until that comes, you should really see much benefit from fast SSDs in games.
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Frant
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Wed, 29th Dec 2021 01:32 Post subject: |
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Yeah, even if it was released, and I haven't seen news that is has been, it will take years before game actually take advantage of it. But once they do, it will be significant. Look at Xbox Series X or PS5 and how quick they load compared to a PC, and their SSDs aren't even top of the line.
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Frant
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| Posted: Wed, 29th Dec 2021 01:59 Post subject: |
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I believe the DirectStorage SDK is still in beta meaning it will take quite a while for games to make use of it (end of 2022/early-mid-late 2023?). By that time I've probably bought a second hand 20x0 or even 30x0 series GPU depending on how the market looks at that point.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 29th Dec 2021 03:40 Post subject: |
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@Frant Id have to respectfully disagree Frant 
Me and my friend play forza a lot, so it's a good example you used. We load roughly the same time.
Now if we each crystaldiskmark his setup blows mine out of the water on results by a huge amount.
Mine is on 2 SSD 960 EVO raided drives, his is on 2 PCi-E 4.0 NVME in RAID 0 for shits and giggles (since he has the parts owning a computer store).
Back when conveys was messed up, we trail and errored ways to fix it one of them was restarting the game, which we did a LOT of. By the time he says: I am in send me an invite again, I am in too hearing the "Welcome back so and so".
Now I can't speak for exact amount of seconds accounting for me having to hear him say he is ready, and the amount of seconds between when we agree 'let's restart' and we both hit alt-f4..and all, but it's close enough that everytime by the time I hear him say he is ready, I am just getting to the festival menu in the garage.
We have even watched disk activity light (and resource monitor disk activity to see if it lines up), it barely flickers and off most the time compared to load time waits. It (seems) the vast majority of it for both of us is processing what it loads, not waiting on disk to finish.
But Forza and New World, which both have noticeable load times, are roughly the same for us. He is a 5950x on a x570 (something something) I am on a 5600x on a ROG strix x570-i gaming.
Also not sure if I read it wrong, using 2NVME doesnt always disable SATA ports. my x570-i has all SATA ports available with both m.2 in and neither in SATA mode. Only some chipsets with less lane access/count needs to disable some SATA (You might have said it that way and I am reading it wrong)
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Frant
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| Posted: Wed, 29th Dec 2021 03:52 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: | @Frant Id have to respectfully disagree Frant
Me and my friend play forza a lot, so it's a good example you used. We load roughly the same time.
Now if we each crystaldiskmark his setup blows mine out of the water on results by a huge amount.
Mine is on 2 SSD 960 EVO raided drives, his is on 2 PCi-E 4.0 NVME in RAID 0 for shits and giggles (since he has the parts owning a computer store).
Back when conveys was messed up, we trail and errored ways to fix it one of them was restarting the game. By the time he says: I am in send me an invite again, I am in too hearing the "Welcome back so and so".
Now I can't speak for exact amount of seconds, but it's close enough that by the time I hear him say he is ready, I am just getting to the festival menu in the garage.
We have even watched disk activity light (and resource monitor disk activity to see if it lines up), it barely flickers and off most the time compared to load time waits. It (seems) the vast majority of it for both of us is processing what it loads, not waiting on disk to finish.
But Forza and New World, which both have noticeable load times, are roughly the same for us. He is a 5950x on a x570 (something something) I am on a 5600x on a ROG strix x570-i gaming.
Also not sure if I read it wrong, using 2NVME doesnt always disable SATA ports. my x570-i has all SATA ports available with both m.2 in and neither in SATA mode. Only some chipsets with less lane access/count needs to disable some SATA (You might have said it that way and I am reading it wrong) |
I notice a difference when loading up FH5 on my NVME compared to my old Samsung 250GB 840 Evo.. There are various reasons for that: it was my system drive and thus it was ~80% full (the game takes a ridiculous amount of space, 102GB) which affects performance. It's single-drive performance which is what I used for my example. I did write that a RAID 0 setup with two SSD's (in your case two 960 EVO SSD's) is nearly twice as fast as a single drive which makes a LOT of difference from just a single SSD.
The performance delta between two fast SATA SSD's in RAID 0 and a single PCIe nVME drive is much smaller and thus the differences wouldn't be particularly noticeable except in very specific cases where a lot of data is being read/written in one go.
I also wrote that using PCIe mode doesn't disable a SATA port. Using SATA mode will.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 29th Dec 2021 04:05 Post subject: |
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OH ok  I wasn't sure if that's what you meant. That's on me, I couldn't quite grasp if the context was it always did, or SATA mode did, or using 2 means one has to use SATA so disables slots.
And dont take it as I am talking people out of NVME. IF nothing else at all and all you do is gaming mostly, the convenience is worth it: No sata cable, no power cable, no finding a place in the case to put it. Pop it in like a stick of ram (sort of) and you are done.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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