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LeoNatan
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 Posted: Fri, 18th Sep 2020 20:22 Post subject: Why did the Quake franchise go out of favor over the years? |
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I mean, ever since Doom 3/Quake 4, it seems like the Quake series was an afterthought. Was it just the Doom 3 engine being more suitable for Doom 3-type game showcase? Was it the principles of id preferring the Doom franchise? Both the Quake 1 and 2/4 universes are worthy of a sequel or a 2016-style reboot/re-imagining, but instead we get abominations like Querp Champions, which has already been abandoned by developers and community apart, and is considered a low point of the franchise.
Same can be said, I guess, about the Wolfenstein franchise, but at least it landed with people who care. I don't think it's as good as it can be, but still it has had good enough games over the years (2009 excluded).
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| Posted: Fri, 18th Sep 2020 20:39 Post subject: |
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Totally agree, these types of games are missing big time!
Why walk, when you can ride.
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| Posted: Fri, 18th Sep 2020 20:39 Post subject: |
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Maybe it's just that it's a more multiplayer-focused IP? Arena shooter specifically, which is a type of mp shooter that, while still having its small fanbase, has mostly been forgotten, with none of the few attempts at it ever really landing a success lately, as far as I can recall at least. Just a thought, not sure if it has anything to do with that. I for one absolutely loved Quake 4, specifically because it went more for its singleplayer campaign. I'd be thrilled to see a Doom (2016) styled reboot for Quake as well.
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Sin317
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 18th Sep 2020 20:50 Post subject: |
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| DarkRohirrim wrote: | | Maybe it's just that it's a more multiplayer-focused IP? Arena shooter specifically |
Is it though? It has been quite the bipolar, where one game is single player, the next MP.
Quake -> QuakeWorld -> Quake 2 -> Quake 3 -> Quake 4 -> ET -> Derpions
| DarkRohirrim wrote: | | Just a thought, not sure if it has anything to do with that. I for one absolutely loved Quake 4, specifically because it went more for its singleplayer campaign. I'd be thrilled to see a Doom (2016) styled reboot for Quake as well. |
I liked it too. Would have preferred a game set in the Quake 1 universe, but the 2 is fine too, and the campaign wasn't really bad for its time. The engine was a mismatch, however. I remember the vehicle physics in the few levels that had those were absolutely terrible on that engine, as well as everything looking like plastic.  But not bad overall. |
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ixigia
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| Posted: Fri, 18th Sep 2020 21:32 Post subject: |
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It's likely because they've never really considered the universe/lore interesting enough and because most folks associate Quake with Q3 - which is silly, like you said, since Quake would indeed have the potential to be great again(tm) as a single-player title on paper. Ultimately they just decided to push their franchises towards two opposite directions in order to have the SP needs covered by DOOM 2016 and the MP ones by Quake Yolo, but the latter was obviously an embarrassment that should have never existed in the first place.
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| Posted: Fri, 18th Sep 2020 22:04 Post subject: |
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cause id software and bethesda never gave a flying fuck to promote the longevity of the franchise, never supported esports , just pretended with id con once a year, and anyone can get his hands on the doom license these days when u watch the latest movie lol, they use it like toilet paper at bethesda
the doom story and quake lore had potential
same way unreal tournament was the better game and more fun for ages , especialy at lans but epic ... failed epicly aswel and let it die a miserable milked death
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| Posted: Fri, 18th Sep 2020 22:53 Post subject: |
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Never really played quake multiplayer, quake 2 was the best in the series. Once carmack left thought the franchise was finished. Its unlikely to see anything innovative happen with the engine so I'm not as interested. They didn't have any new ideas either with doom 2016, copied another game but the IP was more popular so it was a surprise success.
Publisher already has enough single player FPS type games, wouldn't make sense to fund a singleplayer quake game.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 18th Sep 2020 23:13 Post subject: |
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Yes, but I guess my question is why Doom 4/2016 was in development and not a Quake 5/2016? Why did id abandon it? Doom 4 (pre-reboot) was in development long before Carmack left id. Perhaps Carmack just preferred the Doom franchise. Certainly in 2008-2011, Quake was more popular than Doom, given Doom 3’s (undeserved) notoriety. Maybe I’m mistaken on the last part?
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couleur
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| Posted: Fri, 18th Sep 2020 23:23 Post subject: |
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From the perspective of worldbuilding, I think Quake was never as fascinating as Doom.
But then again, it could be purely coincidental. Maybe they just wanted to focus on one franchise and thought Doom would be the more popular one. And besides Quake 4 came out after Doom 3 so it was kind of logical that Doom would be next.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 18th Sep 2020 23:40 Post subject: |
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But Quake 4 was already a second tier game, developed by an external developer. In the past, the external developers were used for map packs or multiplayer maps. So it’s not the tick tock cycle of Doom-Quake-Doom-Quake.
I don’t want to sound like I don't like the Doom universe—I do, very much so, but objectively, looking at Doom 1/2/64 vs Quake 1 or 2, did they really build a world? Quake 1 is as opaque as Doom, but Quake 2 had a properly story, which I remember I loved very much as a child (no recollection what it is now though ).
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| Posted: Fri, 18th Sep 2020 23:43 Post subject: |
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Well I think there is a "season for all things". Like right now it's avengers and superheroes and 10 years from now we will laugh at it.
90s were all C and C and Prince of persias, now we are with Fortnite apex and stuff.
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| Posted: Sat, 19th Sep 2020 00:05 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Mon, 4th Oct 2021 08:49; edited 3 times in total
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| Posted: Sat, 19th Sep 2020 00:07 Post subject: |
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Its more so that AAA publishers are trying to make pokie machines first rather than innovative and compelling games now. I can safely say I've played a handful at most AAA games in the last decade or maybe longer, gaming today is about dlc, derp passes, paying for skins, auction houses, recycling the same engine and assets for as long as possible (COD1-60, AssCreed1-19 anyone?).
I'm interested to see how CDPR fare with Cyberpunk and what kind of monetization actually makes it into the game. You spend 7+ years in dev and build your own engine to hoping to bag some Rockstar dollars, going to need some kind of Sharkcard or whatever it was called.
Look at any great gaming studio ever, pretty much all of them either sold out or went bankrupt. The ones smart enough not to, became online market places. I guess working with a publisher and selling a product at a single price point really isn't all that viable?
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 19th Sep 2020 00:33 Post subject: |
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Agreed, but the Quake franchise was dead way before all that happened. Querp Champions was probably some shitty MP game that got turned into "Quake" to capitalize on the name alone, but it's not much more than a "Quake-in-name-only" type of affair.
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| Posted: Sat, 19th Sep 2020 00:58 Post subject: |
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It's too niche an audience and you can't innovate much with it either, if you do you alienate the type of gamer you need playing and hyping the game. That and as far as i know they didn't allow people to run dedicated servers so I didn't even bother looking at it.
There have been so many tried and failed arena shooters, It has to be completely dead by now surely. The only exception to the rule is Overwatch and they were clever about it, modernizing and flattening the required skill of player as much as they possibly could (so everyone can be a winner!). Cartoony kid friendly artstyle + RNG pay with real money skins, someone had half a brain on that salvaged project.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 19th Sep 2020 01:01 Post subject: |
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This thread is about single player, not MP. You seem to be jumping from topic to topic. First you complain about unrelated stuff, then talk about reasons why a particular MP game failed. Then complain about arena shooters in general. QUAKE SP MOTHERFUCKER DO YOU PLAY IT?
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briangw
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| Posted: Mon, 21st Sep 2020 15:30 Post subject: |
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jackbomb
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| Posted: Mon, 21st Sep 2020 15:37 Post subject: |
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My crystal ball told me there's a new Quake SP in the horizon. Take it or leave it, but this (if my crystal ball is right) will be an extraordinary new instance à la Doom 2016 but with RTX™ full-blown.
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Frant
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| Posted: Mon, 21st Sep 2020 15:48 Post subject: |
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They abandoned the single player element with Quake 3, something which disappointed many fans including myself. Doom 3 was very different from Doom 1 & 2 (not talking about the much more modern engine but the style, setting and feel although I quite enjoyed Doom 3).
Then Quake 4 arrived and sucked badly, hurting the public view of ID quite a lot, and ever since then they never really found the right formula (for many people at least). Rage was supposed to be the "promised land" game but was lackluster as well as buggy. Gamers have evolved as well as games with more involved and complex stories arrived (Crysis, Deus Ex franchise, System Shock franchise, the first Unreal game and so on) while ID kept making twitch based shooters that, while they were and are somewhat popular never evolved game play wise while they seemed to focus on the tech behind instead even with Carmack leaving to do rocket research instead of knocking out code beyond the odd mobile game here and there.
Personally I have absolutely no interest in the rebooted Doom franchise (I spent ~2 hours on the first "modern" Doom and didn't enjoy it and Doom Eternal looked even more boring). My preferences have changed since the mid-90'ies to the mid-2000's. I hate games like Serious Sam for instance which is soooo boring and repetitive.
I guess the remaining popularity is with people who enjoy mindless shooters as well as the multiplayer crowd. However, younger generations (who didn't grow up with gaming in the 80'ies and 90'ies) are probably spoiled by games from 2000 and forward.
The competition is also much stronger with a multitude of games that seem to attract people better than iD's stuff, whether it be crap like Fortnite and other Battle Royale games or better single player games that have more elements than just the simple shooter mechanics still being the main part of iD's game design in the modern Doom games.
Personally I'd rather play Quake 1 & 2 as well as Doom 2 & 3 than any of the newer iD games.
But that's just my 5 pence in a jar.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Mon, 21st Sep 2020 15:58 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | They abandoned the single player element with Quake 3, something which disappointed many fans including myself. Doom 3 was very different from Doom 1 & 2 (not talking about the much more modern engine but the style, setting and feel although I quite enjoyed Doom 3).
Then Quake 4 arrived and sucked badly, hurting the public view of ID quite a lot, and ever since then they never really found the right formula (for many people at least). And gamers evolved as well as games with more involved and complex stories arrived (Crysis, Deus Ex franchise, System Shock franchise, the first Unreal game and so on) while ID kept making twitch based shooters that, while they were and are somewhat popular never evolved game play wise while they seemed to focus on the tech behind instead even with Carmack leaving to do rocket research instead of knocking out code beyond the odd mobile game here and there.
Personally I have absolutely no interest in the rebooted Doom franchise (I spent ~2 hours on the first "modern" Doom and didn't enjoy it and Doom Eternal looked even more boring). My preferences have changed since the mid-90'ies to the mid-2000's. I hate games like Serious Sam for instance which is soooo boring and repetitive.
But that's just my 5 pence in a jar. |
I dont know how many fans were actually dissapointed. I still have magazines that caught all the four quakes releases. The multiplayer aspect was the most talked about feature since the first. There was even a tutorial in one issue where they explained all the high level moves and how to do them - rocket jump, strafing, air control, etc. They wrote about the beta test of Quake 3 and how it stacks against both previous quakes. Quakecon started back with the original game. I feel it was always the series where the multiplayer and high level moveset were the focus.
Quake 4, i dont share the sentiment that it was bad. In fact, i think its one of the best old school singleplayer games ever. The campaign structure is to be studied in gamedesign classes - the rithm of the campaign, the pace breakers they have in there. How its a constant crescendo in situations, weapons, enemies. Its a top fps campaign in my book
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| Posted: Mon, 21st Sep 2020 16:08 Post subject: |
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Q4 had the best shooting feeling of all id games (IMO), but the vehicle levels were completely unneeded.
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Frant
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| Posted: Mon, 21st Sep 2020 16:37 Post subject: |
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| qqq wrote: | | Frant wrote: | They abandoned the single player element with Quake 3, something which disappointed many fans including myself. Doom 3 was very different from Doom 1 & 2 (not talking about the much more modern engine but the style, setting and feel although I quite enjoyed Doom 3).
Then Quake 4 arrived and sucked badly, hurting the public view of ID quite a lot, and ever since then they never really found the right formula (for many people at least). And gamers evolved as well as games with more involved and complex stories arrived (Crysis, Deus Ex franchise, System Shock franchise, the first Unreal game and so on) while ID kept making twitch based shooters that, while they were and are somewhat popular never evolved game play wise while they seemed to focus on the tech behind instead even with Carmack leaving to do rocket research instead of knocking out code beyond the odd mobile game here and there.
Personally I have absolutely no interest in the rebooted Doom franchise (I spent ~2 hours on the first "modern" Doom and didn't enjoy it and Doom Eternal looked even more boring). My preferences have changed since the mid-90'ies to the mid-2000's. I hate games like Serious Sam for instance which is soooo boring and repetitive.
But that's just my 5 pence in a jar. |
I dont know how many fans were actually dissapointed. I still have magazines that caught all the four quakes releases. The multiplayer aspect was the most talked about feature since the first. There was even a tutorial in one issue where they explained all the high level moves and how to do them - rocket jump, strafing, air control, etc. They wrote about the beta test of Quake 3 and how it stacks against both previous quakes. Quakecon started back with the original game. I feel it was always the series where the multiplayer and high level moveset were the focus.
Quake 4, i dont share the sentiment that it was bad. In fact, i think its one of the best old school singleplayer games ever. The campaign structure is to be studied in gamedesign classes - the rithm of the campaign, the pace breakers they have in there. How its a constant crescendo in situations, weapons, enemies. Its a top fps campaign in my book |
Many would disagree with you. Not that it matters, if you enjoyed the game and found it brilliant, good for you.
Meanwhile: https://www.google.com/search?q=quake+4+disappointing&oq=quake+4+disappointing&aqs=chrome..69i57.5098j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
With Quake 4 iD tried to borrow elements from Battlefield, CoD and so on which was a major disappointment to many people who were fans of the previous Doom and Quake games. It didn't feel like a Quake game anymore, changing the scifi & fantasy-tinged occult horror shooter style into a military style game instead. It may have been well crafted but it did split the fan base and since then iD hasn't had the same reverence from the gamers as they did before. It's not so much about the tech (which was nearly always at the top compared with contemporary games) as it's the unique Quake style and atmosphere that was lost. It became just another military shooter with only weak shadows from the Quake universe left.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Mon, 21st Sep 2020 16:41 Post subject: |
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I liked Q4, and so did many. I don't think it sucked, compared to Q2 and Q1. Perhaps it was still basically a Q2 with better graphics, while the industry had moved to more elaborate titles, but I personally enjoyed it. I also enjoyed D3.
But I don't see how modern shooters are better (including to a point the new Dooms). I have tremendous respect for Doom 1+2 for still holding up as well as they do, Quake 1 for still holding up even better than Doom. If anything Quake 2 for me is a missed opportunity, because it just threw the great art design of Quake for a more generic scifi setting (but it was still fun). Quake 4, for example, was a much better corridor shooter than say recent Call of Duties. And whatever you feel about Q4, it's not an id Software game, anyway, which is part of the reason I opened the thread. They gave up on Quake at the height of its popularity, after Q3.
Rage is a terrible game, running in a terrible engine. That megaderpture that was developed for consoles was absolute garbage, and it took many years for them to finally remove it completely (Doom 2016 still had that in places, and it showed).
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Sin317
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| Posted: Mon, 21st Sep 2020 16:45 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: |
Many would disagree with you. Not that it matters, if you enjoyed the game and found it brilliant, good for you.
Meanwhile: https://www.google.com/search?q=quake+4+disappointing&oq=quake+4+disappointing&aqs=chrome..69i57.5098j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
With Quake 4 iD tried to borrow elements from Battlefield, CoD and so on which was a major disappointment to many people who were fans of the previous Doom and Quake games. It didn't feel like a Quake game anymore, changing the scifi & fantasy-tinged occult horror shooter style into a military style game instead. It may have been well crafted but it did split the fan base and since then iD hasn't had the same reverence from the gamers as they did before. It's not so much about the tech (which was nearly always at the top compared with contemporary games) as it's the unique Quake style and atmosphere that was lost. It became just another military shooter with only weak shadows from the Quake universe left. |
They wanted to evolve with the rest of the industry. After Half Life, you couldnt just come up with just a simple run n gun after a decade of them. If Doom 2016 and Eternal would have been released back in 04 instead of Doom 3 they would have been very poorly received.
The nostalgia for games like these didnt exist and people were looking for fresh, modern and more sophisticated games. Just in 1998 fps branched in so many areas - Half Life, Rainbow Six, Delta Force, Thief, Tribes - you couldnt just put the same shit after that as you did in the 90s. Quake 4 is still a sci fi oldschool shooter, but infused with modern bits, which i think work great and elevate the experience. I cant say im in the mood for quake 1 all the time, except when that particular itch arises. But Quake 4 i could play at all times.
But sure, for fans which liked in a very specific way either quake 1 or 2, you can see how it was not to their liking. But you could also see how you could not release a quake 1 game in 2005, when games like Far Cry, Half Life 2 or FEAR were out in the market.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Mon, 21st Sep 2020 16:47 Post subject: |
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| Sin317 wrote: | Hey, don't you guys forget about ETQW! The game that was neither ET nor Quake  |
That's the black sheep of Quake games. Using Doom 3 engine with mega texture, so looking terrible all around. |
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Mon, 21st Sep 2020 16:51 Post subject: |
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The change of style occurred from Quake 1 to Quake 2, not Quake 2 to Quake 4. There was nothing horror about Quake 2 (or 4).
Also, what was the difference between Doom 3 and Quake 4? Both were simplistic run and gun games, where in Doom 3 you run a tad bit slower (not by much). One was almost universally loved, while the other hated. I don't understand that. Other than shadow play with the graphics, there was nothing sophisticated in Doom 3.
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| Posted: Mon, 21st Sep 2020 17:00 Post subject: |
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Doom 3 takes huge influence from Half Life, System Shock 2 and Undying for the Hell level. Same with Quake 4, with its big cast of hollywood actors, vehicles, talkative characters. They tried to keep the oldschool spirit, while putting modern elements in them. I think its great. Thats how you take ancient games like those into the modern, then, age
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Frant
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| Posted: Mon, 21st Sep 2020 17:17 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | The change of style occurred from Quake 1 to Quake 2, not Quake 2 to Quake 4. There was nothing horror about Quake 2 (or 4).
Also, what was the difference between Doom 3 and Quake 4? Both were simplistic run and gun games, where in Doom 3 you run a tad bit slower (not by much). One was almost universally loved, while the other hated. I don't understand that. Other than shadow play with the graphics, there was nothing sophisticated in Doom 3. |
I agree that Quake 2 was a major change in style and design but it still kept some of the elements from Quake 1 (well, mostly characters) but yes, they changed it into more of a military shooter. Quake 1 on the other hand was truly spectacular with a mix of Giger-ish influences, fantasy, horror/demons and sci fi. I wish they'd do a proper sequel to that one keeping the style intact while making the game design and the story modern. Quake 1 (1996) was revolutionary when it was released due to not only having a proper 3D engine but having a much more complex level design (possible due to the new engine tech) and was more than a corridor shooter. It took 2 years for other developers to catch up (like Unreal) and it basically spawned Half Life.
Quake 3 was... well, it had no single player to speak of (except playing multiplayer against bots) which attracted the mp crowd and pushed away the single player crowd (same with Unreal Tournament, a direct response to Q3A although the Unreal 2 sequel didn't live up to it's predecessors name).
But to me and many others, Quake 4 just didn't feel like Quake at all, it felt like a more generic scifi military shooter than anything else. The graphics and the engine had obviously evolved but it lacked the atmosphere from previous Quake games, even Quake 2.
IMHO
And John Carmack aka "when it's done" left which was probably a factor of iD losing plenty of goodwill since he was the top shooter game celebrity directly responsible for the success of iD Software and a celebrity due to him being able to create game engines way ahead of their time compared to any competitors. Him leaving was probably due to working so damn hard on Rage (2011) and it turned out to be an unpolished bug fest with lackluster game play (although I do know some people that loved it) and instead focusing on doing something more interesting, like building rockets and winning the Stage 1 X-prize with his Armadillo Aerospace for the Lunar Landing Challenge.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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