Former Barcelona and Spain midfielder Andres Iniesta has been criticised after posting a photograph of himself with two people in blackface as part of Epiphany celebrations in Spain.
Iniesta, 34, posed with his wife, two of his children and a group dressed in costumes related to Three Kings Day.
Two of the group are painted black - the role of Balthazar is often played by a white man in blackface in Spain.
Iniesta, who plays for Vissel Kobe in Japan, has not responded to criticism.
"I love Iniesta like few other public figures, let alone athletes, he seems a supremely humble man and team-mate," said journalist and author Musa Okwonga.
"I just wonder how you can share a dressing room and so many trophies with Eric Abidal and Dani Alves and still not realise this is not cool. It's very disappointing."
BBC Radio 1 Extra presenter Nick Bright said: "I cannot believe in 2019 famous people are still doing or are around people doing 'blackface' and tweeting it, where are your friends Iniesta?!
"Didn't anyone say, 'Andres, I don't think this is the one bro'."
Three Kings Day is an important Christian festive tradition on 6 January in Spain that commemorates the visit of magi Melchior, Caspar and Balthazar to the newborn baby Jesus.
Large parades are held in cities in Spain on 5 January and the Kings are usually councillors, most of whom are white, so Balthazar is frequently played by a white man in black makeup.
However, the mayor of Madrid Manuela Carmena ended that controversial tradition in 2016 by employing a black man to portray the role.
I don't know about this whole blackface ordeal, I don't feel like there's a malicious racist intent here, kinda like when Griezmann wanted to dress up as a black basket ball player and got a lot of flak for it. Still, nobody took offence for it besides the usual suspects that can't be satisfied anyway, and the guy is still as popular as ever, so there's an hint that black people aren't that offended by it when it's done without a malicious intent - how the fuck do you dress up as a black personality otherwise ? I bet that some would also get offended if you used an afro in a costume.
All the explanations I see in trying to justify why dressing up as a black person when you aren't naturally are pretty poor and weak to be honest: "it's a stereotype of black people" or "dressing up as a black person is inherently insensitive and insulting". I simply don't agree with those views. Immediately linking black make-up of any sort with the blatantly racist American "blackface" short movies of the early 20th century is being very USA-centric and not completely honest. Skin colour-changing costumes are something so common across the globe that it shouldn't come as a surprise, really. As long as no racism is involved, I don't see the issue.
Most of the time it's done in pretty poor taste indeed, but since when has this whole thing started to be an issue ? It's very recent ( ~2010's ), and it's largely contained to the US. They can keep that sort of drama in which nobody but censorship can possibly win to themselves.
I don't think using make-up to change your skin colour should be a problem in a festive setting, if anything else it preoccupies me more that it is a problem, it should be a non-issue if racial tensions weren't a thing. Seems like Belgium agrees with me on this since their Centre for Equal Opportunities and Opposition to Racism did consider Zwart Piet as a non-racist thing. They still recommend trying to get rid of the tradition in order to fight stereotypes, which isn't surprising considering that's the most considerate option so that everyone is content and jolly. But that's the issue with traditions: people tend not to want to get rid of them - especially when you tell them they've been racist all along, even if that's largely false.
Now imagine if people came dressed as these with santa, giving out candy.
Would that be OK because of a festive setting?
The first picture is from Borat though.. If this actually was a thing, of course it wouldn't be okay because a non-ironical anti-semitic intent is clear. But the fact that Sasha Baron Cohen can joke about it is pretty brilliant, isn't it ?
The second one clearly represents a stereotype, but it could possibly be okay and funny if it were an Asian comedian doing it - then nobody would actually say anything but the most extreme folk - "You can't be humorously racist against your own race, that's racist !". Then again we can ban all humour that has racist undertones, but I think that'd be counter-productive and against fundamental freedom. I'd rather support the likes of Desproges and Charlie Hebdo than get offended by them and ask them to tone it down !
When it comes to Zwart Piet, it seems historians aren't fully sure of its origin, but yes the fact that it emerged as a servant/helper kind of thing could explain why it was portrayed as a black figure. It could also just be that it was supposed to be some sort of black-ish demon. It's pointless trying to figure out past cryptic intentions anyway, traditions will evolve if need be but it shouldn't become such a big moral issue to be publicly shamed for either.
Moreover, it doesn't appear to me that the Zwart Piet depictions are clearly racist or supposed to be demeaning towards black people: multiple sources claim Zwart Piet is a very popular and liked figure, if not more popular than St Nicholas himself.
Zwart Piet is a case even more subtle than usual because its an imaginary, fairy-tale kind of figure which doesn't have to be seen as having roots in the "real" world. Moreover, it doesn't appear to me that this tradition had clear racist undertones - I don't think it's fair to be calling people who partake in that Zwart Piet ordeal as racists.
I can fully understand that black people would get offended by this, it was something that was created without any concern for how they might perceive it, but it has solidified into something of an innocent tradition over time, and as I said, people will irrationally fight over traditions.
There's also the matter of how very recent this outrage has been: is it because those traditions weren't seen as racist by those it could offend before, but a shift in perception changed that and now people are more mistrustful ? Is it because the children of these immigrants are more instructed and tend to be more assertive than their parents ? Is it because of the Internet and social media riling people up and making dubious connections between something like the racist american blackface short movies of the early 20th century and a Christmas tradition ?
Things aren't as clear-cut as "this is inherently racist and anyone doing it is a closet racist for no disapproving it" or "but it's just an innocent tradition, we don't actually think of black people as our servants", it's a lot more subtle than that but the subject at hand makes every party involved extra passionate about it, which only results in further completely pointless violence and misunderstandings.
Either way, it seems most TV channels/public institutions now refrain from doing the blackface make-up at all. Even if that bothers some who didn't think wrong, if it's in order to appease people and overall make it easier to live together, I'm all for it.
Be careful though, those are slippery slopes at the end of which you have to put some kind of limit.
Sinterklaas is from Spain, Zwarte piet is a moor. The way I remember the story kind of went: Moors being slave traders and the idea that you had to be good the entire year or they'd stuff you in a bag and take you to Spain to be sold off...
But the tradition changed quite a bit. When I was a child we saw Zwarte piet as the nicer one. He'd joke a bit around, worked behind stuffy Sinterklaas's back with mischief and giving the message to kids that a little mischief wasn't being bad. He'd also was the one that gave us candy and trolled Sinterklaas who always bitched if we were really nice/good the entire year. So yeah instead of a ridiculed figure it was a loved character.
My point is not that someone gets offended, my point is to not perpetuate a stereotype.
I'm not for banning it, but people thinking that there's nothing wrong with it should think past their noses.
Even though it might seem harmless and just a bit of fun but the undertone is still that a big black man with red lips who works for santa will stick you in a sack and beat you silly if you're naughty.
Why I posted two pictures of stereotypes wasn't to show that it's used in comedy (good that you spotted the Borat one though, the other one was Mickey Rooney from Breakfast at Tiffany's) but rather a 1 to 1 exchange to see if you still think that it's so harmless ( could have used any other caricature of Jews).
Take this little gem from Polandball, it's a harmless little figurine that's supposed to bring good fortunes, right? What harm can it do...
My point is not that someone gets offended, my point is to not perpetuate a stereotype.
I'm not for banning it, but people thinking that there's nothing wrong with it should think past their noses.
Even though it might seem harmless and just a bit of fun but the undertone is still that a big black man with red lips who works for santa will stick you in a sack and beat you silly if you're naughty.
Why I posted two pictures of stereotypes wasn't to show that it's used in comedy (good that you spotted the Borat one though, the other one was Mickey Rooney from Breakfast at Tiffany's) but rather a 1 to 1 exchange to see if you still think that it's so harmless ( could have used any other caricature of Jews).
Take this little gem from Polandball, it's a harmless little figurine that's supposed to bring good fortunes, right? What harm can it do...
Thanks for clarifying, I went on a tangent that wasn't yours here, sorry ! I thought I had seen that Asian-caricature picture before, couldn't remember where
I'm really not sure the undertone is still there for Zwarte Piet - I've seen articles, opinion pieces and online comments more akin to what Morphineus is saying. The whole "beating you naughty children up" ordeal has been associated with both St Nicolas and Zwarte Piet over time regardless of their skin colour and now both figures have gotten gentler and nicer - beloved figures really.
In that regard, it's understandable that a lot of locals wouldn't understand why anyone has an issue with this tradition because it doesn't really convey bad stereotypes about black people, it originally had an historical connotation but it doesn't seem overly racist either - Moors were slade traders after all, was it inherently racist for parents to tell their kids they might end up in their boats were they naughty ? It's complicated and not completely honest to say it 100% is.
In that regard, Zwarte Piet is a really tricky case because the racist intent is obscure at best and has near-completely disappeared by now ( which triggers people into defending themselves of any supposed ill intent ), and most people don't consider him as a black human person character per se now ( and that figurative intent was debatable even before that according to historians ).
That little statue you linked is obviously distasteful and probably has clear anti-Semitic purposes, but should it be banned by law altogether ? Trying to write a bill about the ban of caricatured stereotypes would be a living nightmare, it's so much about intent that it's impossible to ban them altogether without dangerously damaging individual freedom. A tricky case indeed.
For me, stereotypes are a very human thing - even though I personally try to avoid them like the plague since all they do is cloud your judgement with opinions that aren't your own - and it's unfortunately delusional to think that we can get rid of them altogether. Comedy and humour are very good outlets in order to de-dramatize and fight them.
What's actually bothering me with your line of thinking here is that I'm not sure whether your intent is to try to eradicate all stereotypes altogether or not, and whether you think that's actually possible or not.
It's a laudable ideal in itself, it would be great if nobody held any stereotypes against this or that group of people any more, but I also think it's a dangerously delusional one that ignores something quite integral to human nature and ends up being quite harmful in the end.
I mean, there's a very limited number of people who can get rid of almost all of their positive/negative stereotypes: it takes a lot of personal work, is greatly facilitated by a tolerant education, and will also often require a good sociological background. Stereotypes can also be marginally useful, there's a thin line between a stereotype and an actual behavioural habit one could scientifically observe - the stereotype can happen to have some grain of truth into it ( or not at all too ) no matter how generalizing it is.
I would like to know your stance on comedy and humour then: do you think they should stop using hence perpetuating stereotypes no matter what the intent is, or do you think they should be free to use whatever stereotypes they want ? I'm leaning on the latter, fuck the politically correct.
To me and to a vast majority, it's all about the intent of the one using the stereotype and how you perceive it yourself. That's the reason only black comedians can joke about African people without being suspected of *something* any more, or that you'd better not be of Maghrebi descent if you wanna joke about Jewish people - unless you're in a duo with a Jewish-descent guy, then you're not a suspect any more. The worst thing about this ? They can't joke about it because of the stereotype that they're all anti-semitic in the first place.
I think this is a damn shame and that it's not what we as a people fought for all these centuries at all, it's the complete opposite with a malicious puritanism that effectively supposes everyone has racist/hateful intentions against anyone slightly different from him.
To conclude about this Zwarte Pete deal, I'm not fully sure of myself here, it's more of a subtle balance between educating people and making tone-deaf traditions evolve over time so that they can become something everyone feels a part of. Eventually, since our occidental societies are very understanding, I'm quite sure those traditions will transition into something that can please each and every one - if they don't simply disappear after a parody of a media trial ( which only ever promote the dirtiest mob mentality in order to keep the profits up ), though.. However, screaming at people that their traditions are inherently bad and that they're dirty colonial racists for being attached to it rarely works the way intended.
I just wish people wouldn't put malicious intents on top of people's heads even if that's entirely false and that we'd all try to live together instead of being increasingly confrontational and mistrustful à la USA - that is something I truly fear because nothing good will ever come out that kind of line of thinking in the long run. See the current state of US politics/sociological fabric.
But that's as delusional as hoping stereotypes would disappear, isn't it
Well, that got me wanting to read some sociology/philosophy papers on those matters !
And I ended up writing an essay again..
There is a guy similar to the zwarte piet in Netherlandas, that part of our (luxemburgish) Tradition aswell.
He's the one punishing the bad kids and he's dressed in black and often has a dirty face, but he's not a black guy and has nothing to do with racial stereotypes.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
I can understand that there used to be some racial connotation with Zwarte Piet (red lips, earrings, curly hair). However, children are taught for many decades now that Piet gets his black color from going down the chimney.
There's absolutely zero racial connotation anymore, and children don't even think like that, anyway.
It's no coincidence that this children tradition, that existed for hundreds of years, is getting criticized in the current SJW climate.
I find stereotypes harmful and un-helpful and usually in the way. And the more common they are about a certain group of people the more of a problem they can become.
Tell me, how many times haven't you heard from people outside of France what smelly cowards you are with one hand on a cigarette and the other on a baguette? Or how all Swedes are tall, beautiful and blonde?
I know these can't be eradicated or banned (not my goal either), but they sure as hell can be minimized by not keeping them alive through 'traditions' and such. And honestly, just because something is a tradition doesn't mean it's anything worth keeping just for the sake of it being a tradition.
They can make Sinterklaas black or something and all the Petes coloured (red, green, orange...) as far as I am concerned. Thanks for that picture of Mr. Yunioshi Mr.Tinkles, I have to see the movie now.
I find stereotypes harmful and un-helpful and usually in the way. And the more common they are about a certain group of people the more of a problem they can become.
Tell me, how many times haven't you heard from people outside of France what smelly cowards you are with one hand on a cigarette and the other on a baguette? Or how all Swedes are tall, beautiful and blonde?
I know these can't be eradicated or banned (not my goal either), but they sure as hell can be minimized by not keeping them alive through 'traditions' and such. And honestly, just because something is a tradition doesn't mean it's anything worth keeping just for the sake of it being a tradition.
To be continued later...
Whenever people say that kind of stuff I laugh it off if it's presented in a funny way, I won't laugh if it's not very funny but it's "whatever" to me. I'm not going to give a stereotype more importance than it should be given.
Then again, being French isn't something super bad that people can really insult you with either.
I mean, jokes are supposed to be funny, right ? Then all groups of people can't have fun stereotyping their own for comedy purposes ? I think that'd be actually really sad and a liberty killer, a poisonous cure.
I have issues with cutting off all banter and comedic/festive exaggeration just in case something might be perceived as stereotyping something. Zwart Piet in this case is a good example because it's currently not conveying any racist stereotype as commented by other humpers - but I'd concede trying to stop using blackface make-up so there's no misunderstandings because you gotta be pragmatic with people's sensibilities.
I understand that ideally it would be great if nobody ever made fun of others and everyone was super nice to each other and never said mean things, but as I said I strongly doubt it's healthy to try erasing anything that sticks out, so to speak. If we can't make fun of each others any more, then welp, we are effectively in Big Brother land.
I totally agree that stereotypes are harmful in themselves, but I'm not sure you can qualify something so natural harmful either.
The super-PC USA is not something I look forward to.. I mean you can't accept this over-sensitive society where everyone, because they want to eradicate intolerance, becomes intolerant to anything that might displease them and will endlessly twist things up so that they can be outraged by them - because those kind of behaviours feed on themselves and never stop growing.
All the while with the firm confidence of having the moral high ground, which makes things extra dangerous and violent.
Very complicated topic but it's an interesting one
To sum it up, it's mostly a problem of intent for me: I would rather wish for a society in which people have the sufficient distance to be living peacefully with each other by their own means, than trying to eradicate anything potentially hurtful and having no ability to distance themselves at all.
Traditions are somewhat good by nature imo, they are something that hold a people together over a common culture and history, and to be more down to earth they are "feel good" moments for everyone to bond over in a mostly harmless way. I generally disregard them, but I don't resent them either.
I am not a fan of racial stereotypes when they serve an obvious political agenda because they essentialise racial traits, which, in my opinion, are mostly used to interpret someones superiority over someone else.
On the other hand, with so many people in the room, we need to be able to not take ourselves and others seriously all the time. So in terms of comedy and satire, it is important to be able to adress prejudices and mannerisms, to be able to laugh.
And it is often a fine line between these two use cases, and the game thereof. But we have to live with that.
The SJW culture has NO ability to make any distinction in that way. And thats why they pervert this discussion and enable the racists more than they help fighting racism.
and btw. the guys in the pic look more like the biblical magi than that szware piet guy.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
I mean, listen. You do know there are black people on this forum. Posting in this thread, that do not give two fucks about Zwarte Piet. Fuck dude, we watch dragon ball z. name one brotha whose complained about PoPo bro
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"Oh no, they compared me, the blackest of man, to PoPo, the alpha hawt dawg that's second-basin' all over town just thank to the cheer confidence that his massive, even flacid 6-inch cock procures."
-some sarcastic black man
"PoPo is awesome. PoPo is PimPin'!"
-some other truth-spittin' man of African descent.
"Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life." ~Berthold Auerbach
We seem to be talking around each-other here.
I'm not talking about people being offended, I'm talking about stereotypes (even the 'positive' ones) being a seed for prejudice and racism if embraced.
And I'm not talking about comedy or jokes, I'm talking about the everyday stereotypes which some people actually believe (and in some cases are perpetuated by a whole nation as a 'tradition').
Take a 'positive' stereotype about Jews, which is that they're either good with money or have lots of it. Now that might sound harmless but that's how it starts. Racism doesn't spring up from nowhere, nobody is born racist, it comes out of the small things, the everyday things, the rumors, the stereotypes, the misconceptions, the jealousy, the fear. And if you let that grow, well...we all know how that ended the last time.
We seem to be talking around each-other here.
I'm not talking about people being offended, I'm talking about stereotypes (even the 'positive' ones) being a seed for prejudice and racism if embraced.
And I'm not talking about comedy or jokes, I'm talking about the everyday stereotypes which some people actually believe (and in some cases are perpetuated by a whole nation as a 'tradition').
Take a 'positive' stereotype about Jews, which is that they're either good with money or have lots of it. Now that might sound harmless but that's how it starts. Racism doesn't spring up from nowhere, nobody is born racist, it comes out of the small things, the everyday things, the rumors, the stereotypes, the misconceptions, the jealousy, the fear. And if you let that grow, well...we all know how that ended the last time.
I'll tell you a little secret: black people trying to ban Zwarte Piet did far more damage to the goodwill of people and increased racism far more than Zwarte Piet ever did. Same with feminists and SJWs. They polarise = push the centrist people to the other side.
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Good post!
