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Invasor
Moderator
Posts: 7638
Location: On the road
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 Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 18:27 Post subject: |
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| Nui wrote: | | Invasor wrote: | | Saying it is ok to use a certain word here because it is ok somewhere just doesn't work. |
because the oxford english dictionary is just somewhere |
Wait, what? Where does it say in the oxford dictionary that it is ok to use the word cunt?
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tonizito
VIP Member
Posts: 51400
Location: Portugal, the shithole of Europe.
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 18:32 Post subject: |
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| Invasor wrote: | I already gave an example of this, maybe try and read the previous parts of the discussion.
And no, it's also not ok to call a man a pussy, because you are inherently saying he has no value because he is comparable to a woman... but pussy is far less strong of a word than cunt. In fact, cunt maybe the strongest offensive word in the English language. |
For you, you mean.
Cunt is widely used as an insult on the UK, AUS and NZ.
And so what if X or Y isn't from one of those countries, he can't use cunt as an insult? Even when it portrays to a woman acting like a raging cunt?
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73196
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 18:34 Post subject: |
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@Invasor lol u fag, u some kind of cunt pussy pc police sjw, aint ya? 
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 18:37 Post subject: |
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| Invasor wrote: | | paxsali wrote: | | It's essentially like saying, "No you didn't mean it that way, I know what you meant better and the reason why is because you used that word", nuff said. |
You said exactly that! You said "VGA didn't mean it that way, I know what he meant better", I am sticking to objective points such as words, you are claiming quintessential meanings (pollitical freedom of speech) in a sentence that clearly reduces women to cunts. |
Yes, correct.
But I said those things based on good reasons and evidence, which are VGA's own explanations of his motives (anti-liberalism, anti-feminazism, etc...).
You instist that all this doesn't matter in spite of the explicitly provided evidence to the contrary and for no good reasons, and how it somehow "still" is misgyny by firtue of merely having used that word in and of itself. Period.
Spot the difference?
Seriously, your level of reasoning is currently not worth your time. Take a break and rethink for some time.
"There will be no end to the troubles of humanity, until philosophers become kings, or kings become philosophers.", Plato.
"Hyperbole will destroy us all.", Matt Dillahunty.
"The hyperbole, the demonization of the other opinion and the unwillingness to even read the opposing opinion destroys the so important political discussions necessary for the well functioning of society.", Couleur
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TSR69
Banned
Posts: 14962
Location: Republic of the Seven United Provinces
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 18:42 Post subject: |
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@Invasor I would stop arguing, it is useless to argue with people who are without reason.
And I am with you.
Formerly known as iconized
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 18:47 Post subject: |
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| Invasor wrote: |
"Most people" grew up in a sexist society. That doesn't change the derogatory meaning. If you go in a group of average texans and ask what they think about the word nigger, chances are they'll say its not so bad. |
Doesn't matter if they'd think its bad or not, they'd know what it means. Not the case here.
| Quote: | | I based my decision solely on that post, which is why I even singled it out by writing the reason (and my name) on it, something that's not always the case. Obviously I try to keep it coherent as much as possible. |
Well you're doing a shit job at coherency then. Maybe you should stop moderating potentially offensive (to you) forums or maybe we'll start putting trigger warnings for you next to the thread title.
| Quote: |
We are debating this, I obviously won't ban anyone based on this topic, or pax would be long gone for flaming and we wouldn't get to this point. Is it possible to use cunt in a sense that isn't sexist? I don't know, maybe, like nigger or any other word. But in the relevant case (VGA) it was. |
No its not like nigger or any other word. Cunt, dick, asshole, pussy are all based on various body parts. As Neon said
| Quote: | If you say someone is a stupid fuck, does it refer to the act of procreating? It's just a term to refer to a person, just like "cunt".
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| Quote: | | Pusilanime is a word in most latin languages, and an adjective in english (with proper spelling adaptations, obviously). But I wonder if when people use the word pussy they have the latin meaning in mind, or current social values... |
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"I have the right to call women cunts and if you take that away it will ruin the place for me". So much for maturity... |
Way to take my argument out of context and into the extreme Instead of trying to protect your ego, you should maybe (as Pax said) reflect on the whole issue, an issue where nobody has agreed with you, not even other moderators. Please don't talk about maturity since these last pages are a testament on how immaturely you handled this situation and how you're still clinging to it.
I'm not calming any rights here, i like this forum because i CAN (no rights involved) call anyone, that isn't a forum member, a cunt and if someone doesn't like it he can argue with me (which will result in a ban because we will start calling each other cunts at the end). If there's going to be changes to this, please let us know publicly.
Last edited by xxax on Sun, 29th May 2016 18:48; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 18:48 Post subject: |
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| TSR69 wrote: | @Invasor I would stop arguing, it is useless to argue with people who are without reason.
And I am with you. |
Care to elaborate?
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 18:49 Post subject: |
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| TSR69 wrote: |
You look at a picture of the staff of a newspaper.
You notice that they are all women and then say cunts, is misogyny. |
"notice they are all women"
Yeah, I get triggered when I see many women together, cool story bro
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 18:49 Post subject: |
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| xxax wrote: | | TSR69 wrote: | @Invasor I would stop arguing, it is useless to argue with people who are without reason.
And I am with you. |
Care to elaborate? |
Lot's of hot air... nothing to back it up. How ironic his statement...
"There will be no end to the troubles of humanity, until philosophers become kings, or kings become philosophers.", Plato.
"Hyperbole will destroy us all.", Matt Dillahunty.
"The hyperbole, the demonization of the other opinion and the unwillingness to even read the opposing opinion destroys the so important political discussions necessary for the well functioning of society.", Couleur
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TSR69
Banned
Posts: 14962
Location: Republic of the Seven United Provinces
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 18:56 Post subject: |
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Well then, would you reason with people who are without reason?
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Nui
VIP Member
Posts: 5720
Location: in a place with fluffy towels
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tonizito
VIP Member
Posts: 51400
Location: Portugal, the shithole of Europe.
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 18:59 Post subject: |
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| TSR69 wrote: | @Invasor I would stop arguing, it is useless to argue with people who are without reason.
And I am with you. |
The "block them on twitter" move, then?
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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Morphineus
VIP Member
Posts: 24883
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 19:03 Post subject: |
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| TSR69 wrote: | | Well then, would you reason with people who are without reason? |
Is everyone that doesn't agree with you unreasonable or without reason?
Sounds unreasonable to me. |
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14330
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 19:04 Post subject: |
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With a different reason maybe.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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TSR69
Banned
Posts: 14962
Location: Republic of the Seven United Provinces
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 19:05 Post subject: |
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No, how about some scientist publishes something that is utterly bollocks, we just ignore it.
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M4trix
Posts: 9259
Location: Croatia, Adriatic coast (I can see ixi from here)
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M4trix
Posts: 9259
Location: Croatia, Adriatic coast (I can see ixi from here)
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 20:16 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 21:44 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 21:47 Post subject: |
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I'd just like to add that for me, the word 'cunt' is no different from any other word with a negative connotation (btw, is my usage of the word 'connotation' correct here?  ). I don't personally use the word 'cunt' but I do use the words idiot and simpleton when someone does or says something I think is stupid (though not to their face of course as I try to be diplomatic (though I don't always succeed  )).
To me those two words are no different than any other negatively loaded words, they're used for unloading your pent up irritation or whatever. Can the word 'cunt' be sexist? Sure. Is it always? Nope. Does it matter? No.
Lets say that the word 'cunt' is used for sexist reasons in the future here on this forum... Why would that matter? I sincerely do not understand why that would matter? This is an internet forum, we discuss things, we share our feelings (by way of arguing, debating, discussing, sometimes in heated ways and sometimes in more dry ways). Do we really want to (I really hate to use this word) censor ourselves here? NFOhump (NForce) to me has always been about being mostly civil but accepting of all views no matter how abnormal or outrageous. The two exceptions to this would be when someone is being criminal in some way or when someone is harassing a fellow member (by way of stalking or similar stuff).
What I find so wonderful about this forum is that I can go on it and type whatever I want and then someone who disagrees with me can tell me why they think I'm wrong, I may disagree and we'll have a discussion on it but what won't happen is that I'll be banned or censored for it (assuming I don't do personal attacks or some such). I can say something that 99% of the people here disagree with and I'll know that I won't get banned for it. I mean, maybe I'm wrong here but isn't that something wonderful to have in these times where almost any forum you go to, there's always a bunch of political bias causing people to not dare write what they want to write for fear of banning?
I get how Invasor feels and I get how pax feels as well, but isn't it great that these two can discuss this shit the way they have in this thread like this? If this was Neogaf, one of you would have been perm banned a long time ago. I have always been of the opinion that while words can irritate or hurt, if you just take a step back and understand that the person on the other side of the argument is just writing (or in the case of real life saying) things based on his/her perspective and perhaps instead of getting angry or instantly deny the words, you should try and understand their perspective. I suppose it's kind of a cold way to look at things since it means you distance yourself from your own feelings for the sake of better understanding their intentions but in the end it might heighten your own opinions, thoughts, understanding and emotions.
And yeah, I know it's easy to say all of this... In reality it's more difficult. I'm a left leaning (meaning I do have certain opinions that aren't left but I do lean more towards left) person but I really dislike this fascistic way many so called leftist people seem to think nowadays, they want to control what people say, what people think and how they behave. That to me goes against the very spirit of being free.
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Invasor
Moderator
Posts: 7638
Location: On the road
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 22:01 Post subject: |
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| tonizito wrote: | | Invasor wrote: | I already gave an example of this, maybe try and read the previous parts of the discussion.
And no, it's also not ok to call a man a pussy, because you are inherently saying he has no value because he is comparable to a woman... but pussy is far less strong of a word than cunt. In fact, cunt maybe the strongest offensive word in the English language. |
For you, you mean.
Cunt is widely used as an insult on the UK, AUS and NZ.
And so what if X or Y isn't from one of those countries, he can't use cunt as an insult? Even when it portrays to a woman acting like a raging cunt? |
No, not for me. Personally I think nigger is worse. And where you're from doesn't really matter, what matters is where you are: here.
| Quote: | | The word "cunt" is generally regarded in English-speaking countries as unsuitable for normal public discourse. It has been described as "the most heavily tabooed word of all English words",[10][11] although John Ayto, editor of the Oxford Dictionary of Slang, says "nigger" is more taboo. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunt#Offensiveness
| TSR69 wrote: | @Invasor I would stop arguing, it is useless to argue with people who are without reason.
And I am with you. |
You're right about some, but with a few I still have (or had) hopes to find common ground.
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Invasor
Moderator
Posts: 7638
Location: On the road
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 22:11 Post subject: |
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| xxax wrote: | | Invasor wrote: |
"Most people" grew up in a sexist society. That doesn't change the derogatory meaning. If you go in a group of average texans and ask what they think about the word nigger, chances are they'll say its not so bad. |
Doesn't matter if they'd think its bad or not, they'd know what it means. Not the case here. |
Yeah, the case here is that some people think some words are ok here because they are ok somewhere. Like nigger is ok in certain circles, so it should be ok here too... not.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | I based my decision solely on that post, which is why I even singled it out by writing the reason (and my name) on it, something that's not always the case. Obviously I try to keep it coherent as much as possible. |
Well you're doing a shit job at coherency then. Maybe you should stop moderating potentially offensive (to you) forums or maybe we'll start putting trigger warnings for you next to the thread title. |
I'm not offended by anything.
| Quote: | | Quote: |
We are debating this, I obviously won't ban anyone based on this topic, or pax would be long gone for flaming and we wouldn't get to this point. Is it possible to use cunt in a sense that isn't sexist? I don't know, maybe, like nigger or any other word. But in the relevant case (VGA) it was. |
No its not like nigger or any other word. Cunt, dick, asshole, pussy are all based on various body parts. As Neon said
| Quote: | If you say someone is a stupid fuck, does it refer to the act of procreating? It's just a term to refer to a person, just like "cunt".
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Nigger also refers to a body part (isn't the skin a part of the body?), it reduces a person to the colour of their skin.
| Quote: | Way to take my argument out of context and into the extreme Instead of trying to protect your ego, you should maybe (as Pax said) reflect on the whole issue, an issue where nobody has agreed with you, not even other moderators. Please don't talk about maturity since these last pages are a testament on how immaturely you handled this situation and how you're still clinging to it.
I'm not calming any rights here, i like this forum because i CAN (no rights involved) call anyone, that isn't a forum member, a cunt and if someone doesn't like it he can argue with me (which will result in a ban because we will start calling each other cunts at the end). If there's going to be changes to this, please let us know publicly. |
It's not out of context, it's exactly what you're saying, you like this forum because you can call women cunts and you won't be happy if it's not that way. Could you point exactly where I handled this "immaturely"? Where does it have anything to do with maturity?
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tonizito
VIP Member
Posts: 51400
Location: Portugal, the shithole of Europe.
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 22:13 Post subject: |
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Well, sorry to disappoint then.
I have used cunt in the past ( ) and will continue to do so ( ) even when *gasp* addressing women that are acting like one.
Now shower me with temp bans, that seems about the worse one can get in here nowadays anyway
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14330
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 22:17 Post subject: |
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Great post @yondaime!
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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Invasor
Moderator
Posts: 7638
Location: On the road
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 22:17 Post subject: |
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| paxsali wrote: | | Invasor wrote: | | paxsali wrote: | | It's essentially like saying, "No you didn't mean it that way, I know what you meant better and the reason why is because you used that word", nuff said. |
You said exactly that! You said "VGA didn't mean it that way, I know what he meant better", I am sticking to objective points such as words, you are claiming quintessential meanings (pollitical freedom of speech) in a sentence that clearly reduces women to cunts. |
Yes, correct.
But I said those things based on good reasons and evidence, which are VGA's own explanations of his motives (anti-liberalism, anti-feminazism, etc...).
You instist that all this doesn't matter in spite of the explicitly provided evidence to the contrary and for no good reasons, and how it somehow "still" is misgyny by firtue of merely having used that word in and of itself. Period.
Spot the difference?
Seriously, your level of reasoning is currently not worth your time. Take a break and rethink for some time. |
You agreed that his behaviour was not socially acceptable. You agree that without the "political freedom of speech" context, it was a misogynistic sentence. The point where we disagree is that you think you can justify the use of sexist language within certain contexts.
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Invasor
Moderator
Posts: 7638
Location: On the road
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 22:26 Post subject: |
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| Yondaime wrote: | I'd just like to add that for me, the word 'cunt' is no different from any other word with a negative connotation (btw, is my usage of the word 'connotation' correct here? ). I don't personally use the word 'cunt' but I do use the words idiot and simpleton when someone does or says something I think is stupid (though not to their face of course as I try to be diplomatic (though I don't always succeed )).
To me those two words are no different than any other negatively loaded words, they're used for unloading your pent up irritation or whatever. Can the word 'cunt' be sexist? Sure. Is it always? Nope. Does it matter? No.
Lets say that the word 'cunt' is used for sexist reasons in the future here on this forum... Why would that matter? I sincerely do not understand why that would matter? This is an internet forum, we discuss things, we share our feelings (by way of arguing, debating, discussing, sometimes in heated ways and sometimes in more dry ways). Do we really want to (I really hate to use this word) censor ourselves here? NFOhump (NForce) to me has always been about being mostly civil but accepting of all views no matter how abnormal or outrageous. The two exceptions to this would be when someone is being criminal in some way or when someone is harassing a fellow member (by way of stalking or similar stuff).
What I find so wonderful about this forum is that I can go on it and type whatever I want and then someone who disagrees with me can tell me why they think I'm wrong, I may disagree and we'll have a discussion on it but what won't happen is that I'll be banned or censored for it (assuming I don't do personal attacks or some such). I can say something that 99% of the people here disagree with and I'll know that I won't get banned for it. I mean, maybe I'm wrong here but isn't that something wonderful to have in these times where almost any forum you go to, there's always a bunch of political bias causing people to not dare write what they want to write for fear of banning?
I get how Invasor feels and I get how pax feels as well, but isn't it great that these two can discuss this shit the way they have in this thread like this? If this was Neogaf, one of you would have been perm banned a long time ago. I have always been of the opinion that while words can irritate or hurt, if you just take a step back and understand that the person on the other side of the argument is just writing (or in the case of real life saying) things based on his/her perspective and perhaps instead of getting angry or instantly deny the words, you should try and understand their perspective. I suppose it's kind of a cold way to look at things since it means you distance yourself from your own feelings for the sake of better understanding their intentions but in the end it might heighten your own opinions, thoughts, understanding and emotions.
And yeah, I know it's easy to say all of this... In reality it's more difficult. I'm a left leaning (meaning I do have certain opinions that aren't left but I do lean more towards left) person but I really dislike this fascistic way many so called leftist people seem to think nowadays, they want to control what people say, what people think and how they behave. That to me goes against the very spirit of being free. |
This is a good reflection, but some points are a bit misguided (and I would argue that it is the core of it)...
| Quote: | | Lets say that the word 'cunt' is used for sexist reasons in the future here on this forum... Why would that matter? I sincerely do not understand why that would matter? This is an internet forum, we discuss things, we share our feelings (by way of arguing, debating, discussing, sometimes in heated ways and sometimes in more dry ways). Do we really want to (I really hate to use this word) censor ourselves here? NFOhump (NForce) to me has always been about being mostly civil but accepting of all views no matter how abnormal or outrageous. |
Yes, it would matter, and it's not about censorship. It's perfectly possible to show your point of view in any subject without resorting to prejudice, isn't it? It's not necessary to reduce people, to make any group inferior, to dehumanize anyone to prove a point. If you really need to do that, your point is probably really lame.
| Quote: | | The two exceptions to this would be when someone is being criminal in some way or when someone is harassing a fellow member (by way of stalking or similar stuff). |
We have a well established policy against racism, xenophobia and other things. Not all of that is a crime in most countries (besides, talking about crimes in a more or less pirate forum is not really a good point). Following that logic, we should also allow racism, as long as it's not directed to any users? If not, why not?
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 22:43 Post subject: |
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| Invasor wrote: | | You agreed that his behaviour was not socially acceptable. You agree that without the "political freedom of speech" context, it was a misogynistic sentence. The point where we disagree is that you think you can justify the use of sexist language within certain contexts. |
No. I agreed the speech was offensive and hence not socially acceptable.
I said about his remarks, if you were to remove the explicit given context of being politically motivated (anti-huffpost, anti-liberal, anti-feminists,.. or otherwise), one can make a case for mysogyny (as in it may be). At least stronger than without having any contradictoring motive.
| paxsali wrote: | | Cunt is a word used for women. Void of any context you can make the case it's misogynist. |
I did not say I disagree that sexist language is justified in certain context.
You're playing the "asserting the premise" / "tautology is true" game again here.
If it was truly sexist in meaning and intention (contextually, not judged by the usage of one single word) than it would be sexist and then it depends on the target to call it misandrist or misogynist.
It's the same thing as I previously said "is a racist joke really racist when..." yes it is, you just said it was in your premise.
In my view one can use offensive language for the expression of his/her political views, such as "cunts", without necessarily implying a greater, broader more general sexist meaning.
It's still offensive talk. It's still socially not permissable. You just can't turn it around to mean something else it wasn't supposed to mean in the first place.
EDIT: and for the record... by socially permissable I mean like real life or public speeches.
You wouldn't say "Hillary is a cunt" on live TV when your name and face was on display.
NFO Forum is a "special" kind of society in this regard, as I believe such speech and similar still would be offensive, but permissable in discourse. In other words, I explicits believe it's OK to talk like this in NFO provided some minimal context is provided and it's not just mind-less ranting... I want people to be able to call Hillary a cunt and Trump a dick or retard or whatever (especially in the Void).
"There will be no end to the troubles of humanity, until philosophers become kings, or kings become philosophers.", Plato.
"Hyperbole will destroy us all.", Matt Dillahunty.
"The hyperbole, the demonization of the other opinion and the unwillingness to even read the opposing opinion destroys the so important political discussions necessary for the well functioning of society.", Couleur
Last edited by paxsali on Sun, 29th May 2016 22:48; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 22:45 Post subject: |
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| Invasor wrote: |  Spoiler: | | Yondaime wrote: | I'd just like to add that for me, the word 'cunt' is no different from any other word with a negative connotation (btw, is my usage of the word 'connotation' correct here? ). I don't personally use the word 'cunt' but I do use the words idiot and simpleton when someone does or says something I think is stupid (though not to their face of course as I try to be diplomatic (though I don't always succeed )).
To me those two words are no different than any other negatively loaded words, they're used for unloading your pent up irritation or whatever. Can the word 'cunt' be sexist? Sure. Is it always? Nope. Does it matter? No.
Lets say that the word 'cunt' is used for sexist reasons in the future here on this forum... Why would that matter? I sincerely do not understand why that would matter? This is an internet forum, we discuss things, we share our feelings (by way of arguing, debating, discussing, sometimes in heated ways and sometimes in more dry ways). Do we really want to (I really hate to use this word) censor ourselves here? NFOhump (NForce) to me has always been about being mostly civil but accepting of all views no matter how abnormal or outrageous. The two exceptions to this would be when someone is being criminal in some way or when someone is harassing a fellow member (by way of stalking or similar stuff).
What I find so wonderful about this forum is that I can go on it and type whatever I want and then someone who disagrees with me can tell me why they think I'm wrong, I may disagree and we'll have a discussion on it but what won't happen is that I'll be banned or censored for it (assuming I don't do personal attacks or some such). I can say something that 99% of the people here disagree with and I'll know that I won't get banned for it. I mean, maybe I'm wrong here but isn't that something wonderful to have in these times where almost any forum you go to, there's always a bunch of political bias causing people to not dare write what they want to write for fear of banning?
I get how Invasor feels and I get how pax feels as well, but isn't it great that these two can discuss this shit the way they have in this thread like this? If this was Neogaf, one of you would have been perm banned a long time ago. I have always been of the opinion that while words can irritate or hurt, if you just take a step back and understand that the person on the other side of the argument is just writing (or in the case of real life saying) things based on his/her perspective and perhaps instead of getting angry or instantly deny the words, you should try and understand their perspective. I suppose it's kind of a cold way to look at things since it means you distance yourself from your own feelings for the sake of better understanding their intentions but in the end it might heighten your own opinions, thoughts, understanding and emotions.
And yeah, I know it's easy to say all of this... In reality it's more difficult. I'm a left leaning (meaning I do have certain opinions that aren't left but I do lean more towards left) person but I really dislike this fascistic way many so called leftist people seem to think nowadays, they want to control what people say, what people think and how they behave. That to me goes against the very spirit of being free. |
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This is a good reflection, but some points are a bit misguided (and I would argue that it is the core of it)...
| Quote: | | Lets say that the word 'cunt' is used for sexist reasons in the future here on this forum... Why would that matter? I sincerely do not understand why that would matter? This is an internet forum, we discuss things, we share our feelings (by way of arguing, debating, discussing, sometimes in heated ways and sometimes in more dry ways). Do we really want to (I really hate to use this word) censor ourselves here? NFOhump (NForce) to me has always been about being mostly civil but accepting of all views no matter how abnormal or outrageous. |
Yes, it would matter, and it's not about censorship. It's perfectly possible to show your point of view in any subject without resorting to prejudice, isn't it? It's not necessary to reduce people, to make any group inferior, to dehumanize anyone to prove a point. If you really need to do that, your point is probably really lame. |
In your opinion it matters because you clearly have a very strong opinion on it, I however choose to take a step back and accept that some people have prejudices and instead of simply silencing such people, I choose to try and understand them so that I can better talk to them.
| Invasor wrote: | | Quote: | | The two exceptions to this would be when someone is being criminal in some way or when someone is harassing a fellow member (by way of stalking or similar stuff). |
We have a well established policy against racism, xenophobia and other things. Not all of that is a crime in most countries (besides, talking about crimes in a more or less pirate forum is not really a good point). Following that logic, we should also allow racism, as long as it's not directed to any users? If not, why not? |
I know that talking about crime on a pirate forum is a bit odd but what I meant when I said that was obviously things like making death threats or similar stuff. As for allowing racism (or other prejudices such as Femifascism)... To some degree yes as long as it's not (as you say) directed against a user). The world however isn't black or white, it has different shades. I feel that that kind of thing can only be judged on a case by case basis. Some people are prejudiced and sometimes their prejudice leaks out in their opinions or writing, why would that hurt someone if it's not targeting them directly? If I saw someone write that all men should die on this forum I'd get annoyed but I wouldn't want them to be banned for it. I'd rather get exposed to those kinds of opinions and feelings than to live in ignorance of them and hey, I can even start a discussion with such a person on the subject of their prejudice? And maybe just maybe that person might through introspection eventually come to learn that they may not have been right to think the way they did. The solution to prejudice has never been to silence it, that only causes greater prejudice (prejudice against authority), the only real solution is to discuss it and try to understand the cause of their prejudice.
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This by the way is what makes me so sad about the state of universities around the world... Safe spaces and banning of words and topics, it does nothing good. No one is perfect, despite what it may feel like inside of a safe space, but through talking and understanding one another, we can become better individuals capable of more compassion.
Last edited by Yondaime on Sun, 29th May 2016 22:49; edited 1 time in total
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Nui
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Location: in a place with fluffy towels
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 22:46 Post subject: |
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| Invasor wrote: | | It's perfectly possible to show your point of view in any subject without resorting to prejudice, isn't it? It's not necessary to reduce people, to make any group inferior, to dehumanize anyone to prove a point. |
While I agree that there is no absolute need to reduce people, which is I why I dont do that face-to-face and don't want to do in a forum with other members either. As it's hurtful and all that. I only insult people in humour or because they don't get to hear it and I want to vent or something.
But why stop there? Why is cunt to woman bad, to a mans its not. Calling someone dick is fine too. You said so.
I mean I think I get it. Im not allowed to be racist/sexist to a minority or in past or presently regarded "inferior" group by some. Which means we have to decide our insults based on race and sex rather than on the individual persons, right? Why even allow insults?
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Invasor
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| Posted: Sun, 29th May 2016 23:05 Post subject: |
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| Yondaime wrote: | | In your opinion it matters because you clearly have a very strong opinion on it, I however choose to take a step back and accept that some people have prejudices and instead of simply silencing such people, I choose to try and understand them so that I can better talk to them. |
I don't believe in silencing people, which is why pax is still here, and its why I was against banning rohnrin for a long time. It's why VGA had many temp bans, but never a perm. Asking people to use proper language is not silencing them, as I said, it's perfectly possible to express yourself that way.
| Quote: | | Invasor wrote: | | Quote: | | The two exceptions to this would be when someone is being criminal in some way or when someone is harassing a fellow member (by way of stalking or similar stuff). |
We have a well established policy against racism, xenophobia and other things. Not all of that is a crime in most countries (besides, talking about crimes in a more or less pirate forum is not really a good point). Following that logic, we should also allow racism, as long as it's not directed to any users? If not, why not? |
I know that talking about crime on a pirate forum is a bit odd but what I meant when I said that was obviously things like making death threats or similar stuff. As for allowing racism (or other prejudices such as Femifascism)... To some degree yes as long as it's not (as you say) directed against a user). The world however isn't black or white, it has different shades. I feel that that kind of thing can only be judged on a case by case basis. Some people are prejudiced and sometimes their prejudice leaks out in their opinions or writing, why would that hurt someone if it's not targeting them directly? |
Ok, imagine we allow racism. A black person finds the website, reads some posts, sees it is allowed, decides to never participate (and maybe even dennounce us to the authorities, if it's a crime where he lives, but that's beyond the point). We lost someone because this is a safe space for racists.
| Quote: | | If I saw someone write that all men should die on this forum I'd get annoyed but I wouldn't want them to be banned for it. I'd rather get exposed to those kinds of opinions and feelings than to live in ignorance of them and hey, I can even start a discussion with such a person on the subject of their prejudice? And maybe just maybe that person might through introspection eventually come to learn that they may not have been right to think the way they did. The solution to prejudice has never been to silence it, that only causes greater prejudice (prejudice against authority), the only real solution is to discuss it and try to understand the cause of their prejudice. |
As I said, it's not about censorship or silencing. We are debating.
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| Quote: | | This by the way is what makes me so sad about the state of universities around the world... Safe spaces and banning of words and topics, it does nothing good. No one is perfect, despite what it may feel like inside of a safe space, but through talking and understanding one another, we can become better individuals capable of more compassion. |
The way I see it, this is exactly what some people want here, a safe place. Except instead of safe for feminists when want it safe for sexism or whatever. A safe place where you are allowed to say what you want the way you want, including reducing people to something inferior, insulting anonymous groups on sexist (or even racial, as you are saying) grounds, etc.
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