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 Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 09:56 Post subject: G-Sync monitors, advice please |
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 11:12 Post subject: |
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120 or 144 Hz does make a huge difference. Obviously most effective when frame rate is that high too, but even at 60 FPS it's still great to counter tearing (I haven't had V-Sync turned on in...forever).
As for G-Sync: the technology works, it does make a big difference as well. Worth it? Not at the prices they ask for G-Sync monitors, no.
First of all, all 3 of those have TN panels. That means crappy viewing angles. And in the case of the linked AOC and Acer, pretty terrible colours too; the Swift is probably the best TN panel out there, but it's still way too expensive. Contrast and black levels are at standard levels.
None of that would be an issue had they priced them accordingly. They are now priced as if they are high-end monitors, which they quite simply aren't. The AOC is closest to where it should be. The Acer is easily 150 quid too expensive, don't even get me started on the Asus. Yes, it is the best TN out there (by a huge margin) but it still is TN. It doesn't have the viewing angles, contrast and black levels of IPS or VA panels, which is what you're supposed to get for this amount of money. It should be 200 quid below where it is, easily. The exact same panel and better ones can be found at almost half that money.
If he's adamant on having G-Sync I wouldn't opt for anything beyond the AOC. If it's more about the high refresh rate, ignore any and all G-Sync models. There are plenty of IPS and VA monitors well below this price that do 120 or 144 Hz.
And just my 2 cents: Nvidia is losing ground with G-Sync rapidly. Asus and Acer are the only ones left - and neither of them is exclusive (they both do Adaptive Sync/FreeSync models too). BenQ are dropping G-Sync entirely from what I've heard, Dell's one-off is just that, AOC will maintain one model at most...and Philips aren't Philips *coughcough* 
Nvidia's getting pressure from all the other manufacturers to stop with their nonsense. The G-Sync hardware still replaces a manufacturer's scaler entirely, is still a very pricy thing. Meanwhile, I know that there are now several scalers coming out that do the sub-30 FPS frame duplication in hardware, AMD does it in software for the other ones, which effectively gives it the same feature set as G-Sync. It also works with multiple monitors, which G-Sync still doesn't work with. I still suspect that it won't be long (in industry terms, which could still mean a year) before Nvidia starts supporting Adaptive Sync and using G-Sync as marketing brand only.
FreeSync monitors have already proven to be way cheaper than their G-Sync counterparts. Proof is in the pudding, look up the Asus MG278Q. Same TN panel as the PG278Q above, but at least here in NL it's €150 cheaper. Differences between them? Obviously the MG lacks G-Sync and ULMB (which you can't use at the same time anyway), but gets 2 HDMI ports, DVI and even an input for USB3 Video, which is just 
Oh and it has speakers, because built-in speakers are amazing 
While I still think that even the MG278Q is too expensive for a TN panel (viewing angles  ), my point is that that monitor is the perfect example of just why G-Sync monitors are not worth it. The technology is fine, the monitors are just overpriced to meet Nvidia's marketing goals.
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| Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 11:14 Post subject: |
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Yes/Yes
The 1080p (24/27) TN panels just don't have a very good image quality, even for TN. Only the cheaper freesync panels are worth it.
The 27'' 1440p are better and true 8-bit panels and a better choice. With G-sync it won't matter so much when the framerate drops further than on a 1080p monitor.
Only the Dell S2716DG currently has a good price for what it offers, it is barely more expensive than the 1080p G-Sync screens.
Would not recommend the PG278Q anymore it is old and outdated.
The 1440p 144hz IPS are a lot more expensive (especially the ones with G-sync premium). You have to decide if the better viewing angles are worth the price premium.
You could also wait for the Lenovo Y27g which is going to have the best image quality for about the same price (or less) as the Dell, but it might be delayed and it is only 1080p/82ppi.
| Quote: |
I still suspect that it won't be long (in industry terms, which could still mean a year) before Nvidia starts supporting Adaptive Sync and using G-Sync as marketing brand only.
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Amen, hope this will happen sooner than later
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| Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 12:08 Post subject: |
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While no experience with gsync, I'm using a benq 2720z with the blurbusters tool to eliminate motion blur. I will say, i could never go back to a standard 60hz LCD screen no matter how great the contrast, viewing angle and the color accuracy. Standard LCD and unfortunately screens with IPS/VA panels are just not good enough when it comes to things moving on screen (i.e playing games). From my understanding gsync uses a strobe backlight as well therefore gives a similar effect along with the variable refresh rate.
I can somewhat explain the difference (Because i can disable and enable the strobe effect on my monitor). If you go to this link: http://www.testufo.com/#test=photo&photo=quebec.jpg&pps=3000&pursuit=0&height=0
It should show the quebec city motion test scrolling across the screen at 3000pixels/sec.
With Strobe off, at 120hz that image is a blurry mess moving across screen.
With Strobe on, at 120Hz it is crystal clear, I can clearly read the Q-52 on the top of that red post thingy.
Strobe Backlight = Finally we have LCD's that perform like CRT monitors.
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 14:03 Post subject: |
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| AmpegV4 wrote: | While no experience with gsync, I'm using a benq 2720z with the blurbusters tool to eliminate motion blur. I will say, i could never go back to a standard 60hz LCD screen no matter how great the contrast, viewing angle and the color accuracy. Standard LCD and unfortunately screens with IPS/VA panels are just not good enough when it comes to things moving on screen (i.e playing games). From my understanding gsync uses a strobe backlight as well therefore gives a similar effect along with the variable refresh rate.
I can somewhat explain the difference (Because i can disable and enable the strobe effect on my monitor). If you go to this link: http://www.testufo.com/#test=photo&photo=quebec.jpg&pps=3000&pursuit=0&height=0
It should show the quebec city motion test scrolling across the screen at 3000pixels/sec.
With Strobe off, at 120hz that image is a blurry mess moving across screen.
With Strobe on, at 120Hz it is crystal clear, I can clearly read the Q-52 on the top of that red post thingy.
Strobe Backlight = Finally we have LCD's that perform like CRT monitors. |
You do realise that there are strobing monitors with IPS/VA panels as well, right?
And no, G-Sync does not use a strobing backlight. Most G-Sync monitors also come with ULMB, which is just Nvidia's marketing term for strobing. The two functionalities are mutually exclusive though. You either run a fixed refresh rate with strobing or you run a dynamic refresh rate.
As for your XL2720Z and the story around it, it also has a relatively high RTC overshoot rate (artifacts). It costs around €500; the exact same as Eizo's FG2421 did at its release (later dropped to €400 before going EOL). If you've read the reviews on the XL2720Z you also know that the two monitors are incredibly close in terms of clarity in motion. It is still way better than any other monitor when it comes to crosstalk, even on a tweaked BenQ. It does have a bit more processing lag, so that's the tradeoff you make for the ridiculous contrast; aside from the fact that when the strobing is turned on, it maintains a better brightness too. Because that's where the Eizo destroys everything else as well, it has a contrast ratio that's anywhere from 5 to 10 times as high as any TN or even IPS panel. The damn thing is so good that the guy behind Blur Busters (who I keep in touch with btw, the two of us got early scoops of most of Eizo's monitors in the last few years  ) is still using it as his go-to monitor.
This is the problem with these monitors. It's not that they're bad; in fact, the 2720Z is crazy good aside from its TN downsides, but it's just priced a little too high. I've seen the two side by side and I'd still go for the FG2421 in a heartbeat, just because of the contrast alone (colours can be tweaked, contrast can't be improved). BenQ are far from the worst offenders though, Asus and Acer are the ones who really capitalise on all the stupidity in consumers. €600, €700 is just too damn much for a fucking TN panel, no matter how good it is...for a TN panel. And because of that, Eizo also put their latest way too high
| Reg67 wrote: | Thanks for the replies.
I did find the extortionate price of those I linked to be quite staggering, even though we always pay over the odds in the UK. And those I linked were the 'cheap' end of the market!
Also as he has an Nvidia card I assume this means any Freesync monitors would be pointless?
I am unsure what to do now, wait till they drop in price? wait until something better comes along?  |
I'd get him a "normal" 120/144 Hz monitor, he'll already be mighty pleased with that. Screw G-Sync. Ignore FreeSync in the sense that you shouldn't make it a buying criteria; i.e. the AOC G2460PF is the exact same panel as the G2460PG. Difference? FreeSync instead of G-Sync. And this one replaces the older, existing G2460FQ, which was again the exact same thing, but without FreeSync. It's just been updated to include FreeSync. This goes for many older popular 120/144 monitors; they've just been re-released with a new scaler that has support for Adaptive Sync at little to no additional cost over the original models.
When Nvidia finally get on the Adaptive Sync bandwagon, he'll have it ready. Just don't tell him yet |
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| Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 14:07 Post subject: |
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Sounds like your lad has fallen victim to marketing. As others have recommended, just get him a decent 120 hz TN panel, he'll be happy with that. Does he play counter-strike and stuff like that?
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| Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 14:07 Post subject: |
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Now I am even more confused, would you be kind enough to provide some links Werslds? (or anyone else) Amazon,Ebuyer etc?
I realise this is perhaps a liberty but I need to be sure what I am looking for.
It is beginning to sound like G-Sync is just a gimmick
Thanks
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 14:44 Post subject: |
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Sure. I wish the UK had something like tweakers.net/pricewatch though, so much easier and more reliable to find shit
Quickly up front: strobing means "blur reduction", "ULMB", "LightBoost", "Turbo 240" or whatever marketing term companies use. It basically flickers the backlight at twice the refresh rate in order to reduce motion blur. It greatly enhances picture clarity in motion. So for 144 Hz, that means the backlight flickers at 288 Hz.
About 200 quid, 1080p, 144 Hz:
- G2460PF: https://www.amazon.co.uk/AOC-G2460PF-24-Inch-Gaming-Monitor/dp/B013YIRF4S/
- XL2411Z: https://www.amazon.co.uk/BenQ-XL2411Z-inch-Gaming-Monitor/dp/B00HZF2JWA/
First one is the exact one from your OP, but without G-Sync (and instead has FreeSync), so 33% cheaper. No strobing backlight.
The second one is a slightly older model but BenQ now ship it with newer firmware and it does have strobing.
Basically it's strobing versus FreeSync; I'd personally opt for strobing.
If your budget goes up to what the AOC in your OP costs, I'd skip that particular model and instead get one of the two monitors that AmpegV4 and I are talking about:
- FG2421: www.amazon.co.uk/Eizo-FS2434-BK-24-Inch-Gaming-Monitor/dp/B00KQGO77U/
- XL2720Z: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Computers-BenQ-XL2720Z-Gaming-Monitor-Response/dp/B00HYX1XCK/
First one is about 275 quid, 1080p 120 Hz with strobing. It's a VA panel so great viewing angles and the contrast is absolutely nuts. Black on this monitor is proper black.
Second one is about 325 quid, 1080p 144 Hz with strobing. It's bigger than the other 3 (27") so it's slightly less sharp (lower pixel density), but it's a great monitor overall.
Neither of these has FreeSync or G-Sync; I wouldn't go higher in price than these though. Just not worth it.
Use this for reference to find shit: http://tweakers.net/categorie/344/monitoren/producten/#filter:PY3BCoMwEET_Zc-pZI0GzQcIPfTksXgIcSkpsUoipVTy790g9DS7b2Z2D1jjTHHwFGYwsEX_TCBOOK5xZ2aT-5ON3JVzFxSw2QeN_ktgUEpRmo5u_gWGl0SB3E7zmU9g7tioVmBT64ldpoMPO0V2DmAqiy6lDHXV8bfFfnjuZCUhC0DdYkm8beBToHrVc0ZrrVh67BCmnPMP
It's in Dutch, but it'll give you an idea of prices. Already filtered it to 120-165 Hz monitors
Comparison of these 4 monitors: http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/compare/462468;421432;368069;354473/
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| Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 14:48 Post subject: |
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Thanks, I was happy (ish) to spend 3-500 on one as it will have to last him a good while, I was just so unsure about the G-sync crap. I would rather get decent/biggish monitor but without the G-sync, as you have pointed out. Any other links are welcome, I do appreciate this.
Thanks
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| Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 15:11 Post subject: |
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Nui
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| Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 15:25 Post subject: |
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Are there no monitors where you can determine the frame duration aka the "strength of the flicker"?
kogel mogel
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 15:25 Post subject: |
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It's actually even more complicated than this
Blurbusters have loads of good material on it, but the way I worded it was on purpose because it capture the essence of how all these techniques do it whilst still keeping it sensible for someone who doesn't know all the technical stuff. No, it doesn't really flicker at twice the speed, but it's still the easiest way to explain it
The early LB implementations, ULMB as in the G-Sync hardware, Eizo's Turbo 240, BenQ's blur reduction all work slightly differently 
@ Nui: with a newer BenQ (V2 firmware) and BlurBusters' tool you can control the strobing pretty well and there are also some other monitors that have settings for it in their OSD.
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Nui
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| Posted: Wed, 20th Apr 2016 19:10 Post subject: |
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| Reg67 wrote: | Chaps, a few more questions. Please excuse my ignorance but I am no way keyed up on all the monitor jargon. feel free to poke fun at my questions if you wish. 
1.Can I use a Free-Sync monitor with an Nvidia card? I ask as I would like a higher res as possible and the only ones with 2560x1440 appear to be Free-sync or G-sync, but I am told a free-sync monitor is AMD onlky.
2. For mainly gaming purposes should I go for TN, IPS or whatever else?
3.The G-sync monitors appear to be display port input only, is there a reason for this?
So, what I am really saying is I would like 2560x1440, 144mhz and 27" or above for gaming
Sorry for what are probably daft questions or have already been addressed. |
You can use a "FreeSync monitor" with an Nvidia card, just not the FreeSync feature itself. Same with G-Sync and AMD.
IPS displays are fast enough for gaming these days, and aside from response times (and to a small degree contrast) they are overall better than TN. So unless you want to save money there is no reason to go for TN. Personally I prefer VA, but there aren't many (or at all) high resolution, high refresh rate VA monitors at the moment. There should be a few launching this summer or by the end of the year though.
G-Sync is only supported via DisplayPort, it's the limitation of the tech presently. FreeSync works over HDMI now as well, but I think only on monitors that support it explicitly - all the new/upcoming ones should have it by default.
One thing to note on the 27" 1440P 144Hz IPS monitors, is that to the best of my knowledge all the current ones use the same panel and there have been issues with quality control. Basically there are relatively high odds that you will get a monitor with some issues (backlight bleed, stuck pixels, etc). Considering the premium price for those, I have seen many people suggesting to avoid them until something better comes out.
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| Posted: Thu, 21st Apr 2016 09:00 Post subject: |
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Currently I'm having 2 G-Sync monitors Asus PG27AQ (4K) & PG348Q (21:9) on my desk. (Don't worry they both are for testing purposes. )
Gsync is definitely nice addition to PC gaming but as previously mentioned it is not worth the price at this moment.
My suggestion is that you aim for the FPS based on choosen monitor's refresh rate. If you decide to pick a 144Hz monitor then prepare to run ALL the games with 144 FPS with all possible vsyncs off and FPS cap at 144 (or 142 / 145 depending on the game's engine). If monitor's refresh rate and FPS are in perfect sync no tearing should be visible. Though sometimes this is very hard to achieve that's why we have all these syncing techonologies.
Personally I would avoid all TN monitors because of crappy color reproduction. Some TN monitors are almost impossible to even calibrate because of crazy color tone changes. Yes some models are better than the others but in general if you have VA / IPS as an options I would definitely prefer them.
ps. And if you can please test 21:9 monitor. Once you go 21:9 you'll never... 
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/03/10/asus-pg348q-hardware-review/
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