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 Posted: Mon, 14th Dec 2015 21:56 Post subject: Atheism and Theism thread. |
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Let's start a fruitful discussion.
This is a thread I wanted to start a long time ago and I don't know what content I should pack in in the OP, so fuck dat shit... here is the thread first and let anyone speak his mind openly about topic they wanna talk about.
Morality, cosmological arguments, free will, evolution and life, ... there are always many cross sections into philosophy and science in this kind of topic.
Be nice to eachother.
"There will be no end to the troubles of humanity, until philosophers become kings, or kings become philosophers.", Plato.
"Hyperbole will destroy us all.", Matt Dillahunty.
"The hyperbole, the demonization of the other opinion and the unwillingness to even read the opposing opinion destroys the so important political discussions necessary for the well functioning of society.", Couleur
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| Posted: Mon, 14th Dec 2015 22:12 Post subject: |
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Well it's simple, "God" do not exist... Most religions are just made up because people didn't knew better and were afraid of death... and then those religions turned into money making machines most of time.
I am pretty disgusted by let's say "christians" like many in Poland, for example my mother(she is a lovely person but gets angry over religion quickly) or actually anyone else here.... She just blindly believes anything only because she was raised in that faith and one of the teaching was to blindly believe.... so nothing will come to her. I explained her history of christians, crusades, why priests of that religion can't have wife and children (but like to fuck them a lot). And so on and so on. There is no proof to anything. And we do get scientific proof to things that we never understood before, that were believed to be god doings.
If there is anything out there that created life, I am pretty sure it's nothing that we believe in and nothing that we could actually understand and comprehend.
Ofcourse I can be completely wrong and be a heretic and go to some stupid imaginary hell. But I don't care because I don't want to live with those idiotic rules and waste many hours to go to church meetings and talk about some imaginary story and drop some money in the basket.
For all I think, if Harry Potter was written over 2k years ago, it would be a religion now and it is easy to imagine, that I would be chased and killed over blasphemy that would be not believing in mr potter.
I truly believe none of the bullshit is real. At least not in a form we think or at all.
It does have it's place, like giving rules, like "do not kill" to stupid people. But that don't really work anyway, so why all the bullshit.
Why people who blindly believe in all of this, because they were raised this way, would beat me up, just for me saying that I don't believe in any of this!
Also - Sorry. I don't want to be rough to anyone with my "no" statement. It just might sound like I am angry or something but that's because I remember of all the angry religious people who attack me over their bullshit 
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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| Posted: Mon, 14th Dec 2015 22:15 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Mon, 4th Oct 2021 23:17; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Mon, 14th Dec 2015 23:02 Post subject: |
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God is the one true God.
Wait, Allah.... No wait Buddha, no wait Krishna, no wait Rah, no no wait the Sun.
I rarely talk about this anymore, my mom swears she was healed by a miracle (Hepatitis C), she swears she meets god at church, presence, she swears she has seen people being healed.
I just fucking laugh and keep playing, no sense in talking about religion nowdays for me.
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| Posted: Mon, 14th Dec 2015 23:33 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:41; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 00:31 Post subject: |
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It's sad.
Also KC you spoke out what I had in mind. Kudos to you.
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 00:59 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:41; edited 1 time in total
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
Posts: 65088
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 01:26 Post subject: |
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I consider myself lucky that my family embraces the cult of cheetos crust in a candid and uninvasive way, as everyone should (this not happening is the #1 reason why we can't have nice things in this planet), respecting my precise view on the matter, assuming that there is actually a matter to talk about to begin with. 
I respect their view as well of course, I don't intend to open anyone's eyes, if they find comfort in believing, that's only positive. Whatever helps keep you afloat in this CtPa Town called life, as long as you don't interfere with other people's standpoints, anyone is free to do his thing, be it in a Flying Spaghetti Monster mosque or franciscan chapel for lord Cthulhu.
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 01:44 Post subject: |
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Well my mother keeps pestering me all day, blessing me, mentioning god, inviting more idiots home to make stupid adoration cults to an image of virgin mary that came from some other fucking country. All day watching TV (not tv, religious celebrations, counting the beads of the rosary for 1 hour), religious music all day (which is fucking horrible btw)
So i have this constant thing around my house so i have taken it to ignore it completely, shes a lost cause.
Yesterday she came again to talk crap, so i talked back asking my usual questions. "God saved her" well god doesnt save all of us, remember X's child? Yea... God works in misterious ways, but he pardoned that pedophile rapist eh?
I dont really show the valid points, i just joke around. I once talked about serious questions of things that are inside the bible "Women cant talk in the church, they must ask permission from their husbands", "Incest in the Adam and Eve era", "You shall not adore images" etc etc. What about miracles in other religions, what about their gods, their writing, the timelines of the other religions etc.... They twist it around "Its a representation, it has another meaning, you must see it this way, its not an image its a memory" it is completely pointless and makes me notice how stupid humans (most of) are in face of religious matters.
Meh...... nah.
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 07:45 Post subject: |
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Well when I am leaving for work or everywhere, my mother always says "with god" and i better respond that or she will be angry.
Thankfully its less than full year until I will move to my place with gf and we can say fuck it to all of this stupid bullshit. And no way I am taking a catholic wedding just to not pick a fight with mother.
Andbif we have a kid i dont want to baptize it but cant imagine how I do it in this country and family without being sued and stabbed
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
Last edited by KillerCrocker on Tue, 15th Dec 2015 07:47; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 07:47 Post subject: |
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If you are religious why would you even want to discuss the matter in a logical way with an atheist whos sole purpose it is to try and prove you wrong and show you that what you have established as an important concept for your life is stupid? I have a hard time seeing "good" logical argumentation as a part of religion for many years so trying to use this as a method for confrontation seems like a bad choice( which seems to be the most used method by atheist fanatics such as Richard Dawkins and the like ).
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JackQ
Non-expret in Derps lagunge
Posts: 14181
Location: Kibbutznik, Israel
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 11:08 Post subject: |
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The Term "God" could be enlarged definition,IMO.
looks at the ancient greeks and Nords,the "Gods" there are basically powerful "Immortals" mans that rule the world,with each 'god' control part of something.
they far form invincible though,and they are not omnipotent let alone Omnipotence.
IMO 'God' or 'Godly' for me is more of metaphor for something very very strong,but far from Invincible. it's like Ant Queen for Ant's nest.
"Fuck Denuvo"
Your personal opinions != the rest of the forum
Last edited by JackQ on Tue, 15th Dec 2015 11:15; edited 1 time in total
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14361
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 11:14 Post subject: |
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One could say that god is simply the idea that there is a beginning to everything as opposed to an infinite regress of causality.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 11:48 Post subject: |
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Well unarguably, most religious people will believe in god as an actual being above all, with almighty power and the moral highground.
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 12:42 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:41; edited 1 time in total
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couleur
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Seron
Posts: 379
Location: swedenenenenenenene
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 16:38 Post subject: |
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worst religion/belief system is by far socialism/communism, all other religions combined just cant compete with this engine of death
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 17:17 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:41; edited 1 time in total
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Seron
Posts: 379
Location: swedenenenenenenene
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 17:35 Post subject: |
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| paxsali wrote: | | Seron wrote: | | worst religion/belief system is by far socialism/communism, all other religions combined just cant compete with this engine of death |
That's very biased don't you think.
I mean sure, communism we would probably all agree, but socialism?
And you clearly never heard of feminism before now, have you? |
taking something from someone against their will is theft, regardless what you think of it, or whatever you choose to call it.
if we can at will change definitions rape wouldnt exist, only love, even the most stupid people understand this.
not to mention its illegal authority (you have to obey jesus/whatever president...becaaaause)
i would be biased if i was a thief promoting socialism.
my point is all belief systems should be included, yet most people dont seem to realize the systems i mentioned are belief systems too.
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 18:02 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:41; edited 1 time in total
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Seron
Posts: 379
Location: swedenenenenenenene
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 18:37 Post subject: |
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| paxsali wrote: | | Seron wrote: | | taking something from someone against their will is theft, regardless what you think of it, or whatever you choose to call it. |
Why? Theft is a crime. A crime is whatever the legal system defines as crime.
What you're suggesting is that all cases of things taken from someone against their will is a crime, which is self-evidently not the case, so how can it be theft in any case and no matter what?
I would say that it depends. And saying that it depends is a completely non-controversial position.
| Seron wrote: | | if we can at will change definitions rape wouldnt exist, only love, even the most stupid people understand this. |
I believe you fell to the common trap to believe words have intrinsic meaning. They don't.
Words have usages. Usages are chosen by how useful they are to make distictions between qualitatively different ideas.
The ideas are the only things that matter, not the words.
One word can stand for 10 different ideas, ten words can stand for one and the same idea.
Words have no meaning, only usages, therefore your fear of people seemingly "randomly" changing "definitions", that doesn't change reality and it doesn't change ideas.
As long as you understand that being forcefully and against your will abused is wrong for a number of reasons, the usage and re-definition of a single word "rape" doesn't change much about how people think of the same act.
Your concern is irrational.
"not to mention its illegal authority (you have to obey jesus/whatever president...becaaaause)"
A president is a legal authority. He may be immoral and wrong and whatever ... but within that framework of governance it will always be "legal".
So if you have something to say against it, find better words that are useful of making clear what ideas you are refering to.
Same for Jesus. If indeed he is God in person, he is "legal" within the framework of all his creation.
| Seron wrote: | | i would be biased if i was a thief promoting socialism. |
What I don't understand is why you associate socialism with theft in the first place?
As far as I understand socialism does not require "theft", at least not in principal / ideology-wise.
Of course you could name historic examples of theft by socialist governments, but that would mean we depart from a philosophical discussion...
| Seron wrote: | | my point is all belief systems should be included, yet most people dont seem to realize the systems i mentioned are belief systems too. |
I think the problem here is you basically conflated religions with ideology.
Religion is a belief system.
Ideology is a belief system.
But not every religion is an ideology and not every ideology is a religion.
Some religions have ideologies, some ideologies support or reject religions.
However, you cannot willy-nilly through them all in one bucket, because they're all "belief systems".
This is where usage of "belief system" comes to it's limits. There are clearly distinctions there, that neither cover nor acknowledge.
You have taken several different "ideas" and slapped one and the same label (word) on them and you expect us to intuitively understand everything you say, the way you meant it. That's not how it works. |
for a law to have any purpose you need to define it, and you should follow through with this definition without exceptions. today there are exceptions, taxation for example, the action is exactly the same as theft, you take something from someone against this persons consent (sure some give their consent but most do not). thats the reason i brought up rape, its the same principle, by law its sex without consent, im sure you realize that the rapist cannot undo this action by calling it something else, a rapist is not in a position to decide this, the victim is.
if you dont personally give your president your consent he is a criminal, this is an illegal action, but within todays belief systems there are exceptions such as this one, decided by people in superior numbers, no one can declare how this can be legal.
how is this any different from any other religion claiming authority over you?
theres science (things we can prove) and belief systems (things we believe in but cannot prove).
perhaps you dont understand law? if i and some friends write stuff on a paper and claim its law and you need to follow or punishment awaits surely you would call us a mob, laugh and leave. when socialism is voluntary we call it charity.
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 19:08 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:41; edited 1 time in total
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Seron
Posts: 379
Location: swedenenenenenenene
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 19:46 Post subject: |
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| paxsali wrote: |
Sure, you need to formulate the law for it to be valid, it can't be in contradiction with the constitution and must be published, all good. However defining a law has nothing to do with giving it purpose or vice versa. |
if a law has no definition what can we possibly use it for? nothing i would argue.
only a handful of people signed the constitution, neither you nor your family was there why on earth would you find its authority legit? i understand you obey it in your regular life as the consequences of not doing it is punishable by death (well if you resist that is), this doesnt make it legit however
| paxsali wrote: |
First of all your usage of the word "theft" is mighty-poor.
You see defining "theft" by concent and non-concent without providing a clear concept of what ownership is is a futile task.
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you are correct about ownership, maybe i shouldve declared this it's just so obvious i dont know if you are playing silly. a thief does not have ownership over stolen goods, in your example the police is simply returning a car that belongs to you.
| paxsali wrote: |
Which, coincidentally is also the same reason why you believe taxation is theft,
which also makes it clear now why you believe socialism has intrisically to do with theft.
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--can you declare how this is possibly a belief i have?-- edited ignore as i misread. if i steal something from you and call it taxation, does this mean you simply surrender and say yeah i respect your belief go ahead. no, you dont care what i call it, the action in real life is that ive taken something from you against your consent, something you have ownership over.
please, declare the difference between theft and taxation (not in theory but in practice).
if you cannot you are being religiously inconsistent, as you "believe" taxation, for some mysterious reason is not the same thing as taking something from someone without consent, same as theft.
| paxsali wrote: |
Wrong. A belief system is not defined as being "non-provable".
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so you "believe" in math? or do you know it works
back to my point, socialism/communism is the belief that for some reason taxation is not theft, im surprised this doesnt ring more bells in a forum like this where im sure most people agree religions in general are about submission (gief yo money and sex plx).
authority is only legit if you give your consent, regardless what generations before you did, what area you live in or whatever people choose to call it. the fact we cannot simply ignore these illegal authorities irl does not mean they are legit in any way.
im sorry for the stupid long quotes. i understand what im saying might be sounding very off-topic, my intention is not to start a political debate of any kind even tho its kinda hard not to
Last edited by Seron on Tue, 15th Dec 2015 20:07; edited 1 time in total
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Seron
Posts: 379
Location: swedenenenenenenene
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 19:51 Post subject: |
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| PumpAction wrote: | | Well unarguably, most religious people will believe in god as an actual being above all, with almighty power and the moral highground. |
a god is not needed, their point is that theres an almighty authority
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 19:54 Post subject: |
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I think this whole thread is bullshit.
Enthoo Evolv ATX TG // Asus Prime x370 // Ryzen 1700 // Gainward GTX 1080 // 16GB DDR4-3200
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Morphineus
VIP Member
Posts: 24883
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 20:01 Post subject: |
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| Bob Barnsen wrote: | | I think this whole thread is bullshit. |
You're not alone my friend. |
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 22:03 Post subject: |
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13522
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 23:18 Post subject: |
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
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HIz
Posts: 2187
Location: Wrong_Timeline
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| Posted: Tue, 15th Dec 2015 23:37 Post subject: |
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satan seems to have a lot of power in this thread...i'm off to church to pray for your souls.
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