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 Posted: Tue, 27th Oct 2015 04:01 Post subject: |
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Kaltern
Posts: 5859
Location: Lockerbie, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Oct 2015 04:02 Post subject: |
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| tonizito wrote: | | Mchart wrote: | | If the rumors are right of him wasting manhours at the company and having someone re-do the pants pockets on the in-game character models then I have no doubt his fuckery has wasted tons of manhours. No one gives a fuck about pants pockets. We just want a functioning game. Fix the pants pockets later. |
Oh yeah genius? Good luck starting up your ship after the key falls through your defective spacepants pocket somewhere in that big ass hangar/social hub.
Clearly this was a game breaking bug that needed to be addressed ASAP  |
Playing Valheim every weekday at 10pm GMT - twitch.tv/kaltern
Follow me on Twitter if you feel like it... @kaltern
My system: Ryzen 7 3700x|Gigabyte RTX 2080 Super Windforce OC|Vengeance 3000Mz 16Gb RAM|2x 500Gb Samsung EVO 970 M.2 SSD |SanDisk SSD PLUS 240 GB + OCZ Vertex 2 60Gb SSD|EVA Supernova 650W PSU|Logitech G27 Wheel|Logitech G19 Gaming Pad|SteelSeries Arctis 7|Logitech G502 Proteus Spectrum Mouse + Logitech MX Master Mouse|Razer Blackwidow Chroma X Keyboard|Oculus Quest 2 + Link|Pixio PX7 Prime 165hz HDR & 1x Samsung 24FG70FQUEN 144Hz curved monitor
-= Word to the wise: Having a higher forum post does not mean you are right. =- |
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no9999
Posts: 3437
Location: Behind you...
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Oct 2015 13:33 Post subject: |
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| Mchart wrote: | | bart5986 wrote: | | Mchart wrote: | | The game will always run like shit because given the intended scope of this game the cryengine is a poor choice. The amount of manhours and money they are wasting to get this game to run w/ cryengine is one of the key production issues with this game. |
Which engine would you suggest? I think you will find they all have huge downsides.
Cryengine has the most potential as it can handle everything they want except open world. And supposedly they are getting a lot of help from Crytek to do this. |
No clue. All I can tell you is that for all the shit people give Elite Dangerous that in-house engine does the job it needs to do and the game runs fine, and again ED has a substantially smaller development team and less funding. |
Well the huge problem with what you just said is that Elite Dangerous was built from the ground up wrong.
I won't go into detail but to put it simply Elite Dangerous runs on a client trust model, this means if my computer says I'm flying the deathstar then I am.
This is because they run the game on P2P which means everyone trusts everyone and their servers can't do anything about it.
Now I ask you again, can you give one example of an engine that would be suitable for Star Citizen? Because as I'm sure you are starting to see, Cry Engine could end up being the best choice, its hard to know.
| Immunity wrote: | | bart5986 wrote: |
I don't think that has anything to do with a game being pay to win.
People are going to play this game for 16 hours a day... I have a job like many others and they are going to get way ahead of me.
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So throwing money at the problem makes it all better? And it's totally justifiable because you're a productive member of society whereas they're just lowly basement dwellers?
Sorry, but people like you are the reason gold sellers/spammers exist. That mindset really disgusts me.  |
You misunderstand.
When I come home from work I am going to be playing with people that have been playing 16 hours with fancy ships.
I am also going to have be playing with people who have purchased their ships.
However, the game should be balanced in a way that I can play without getting pissed off at both of those groups, and those 16 hour a day people should not get pissed at the paid ship people.
I would assume the 16 hour a day people will have actual equipment for their ship, and the paid ship people will need to work hard for that.
Think of it this way
If you remove all paid DLC, but play Star Citizen 3 months after release, what exactly is going to be different?
Everyone is going to be geared up with fancy ships that you wouldn't be able to tell it apart.
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harry_theone
Posts: 11210
Location: The Land of Thread Reports
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TSR69
Banned
Posts: 14962
Location: Republic of the Seven United Provinces
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Oct 2015 14:50 Post subject: |
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@bart5986
So balance in a game to you means: If you play less, you have to buy ships with real money to keep up? And then when you buy the game later you just have to spend some more money to jump into the action and be balanced? Pay 60 for the game, and then because you have a job or a fucking life you have to spend even more?
And then what? You think that they'll just suddenly stop selling over expensive ships, items and other crap on the in-game store to keep things balanced (in a P2W game)? Chris Roberts is seeing them dolla dolla signs and I can't really blame him. People spending 1000$+ on an in game ship that took perhaps a week to make? That's some fucking profit right there.
Micro (not really that micro anymore) transactions galore, with a nice P2W system. Something like this would be heavily scrutinized in any other game, but oh no, not in Chris's love child. Not when you invest into it yourself.
Look at all the people shamelessly defending their investment, a project like this should receive heavy criticism and should be pulled apart to make sure they're not fucking about. Just reading their forums makes me fucking sick, people defending left and right, making excuses for some pretty fucked up business decisions. And then claiming there will be no DLC whoring from Chris Roberts. Excuses me but have you seen the fucking shop? The fucking cash shop is their best working product. THAT SHOULD SET OFF SOME FUCKING ALARMS.
Sorry for the aggressive rant but this game is everything that's wrong with gaming today.
Last edited by DY_DEAD on Tue, 27th Oct 2015 14:56; edited 1 time in total
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mtj
Posts: 2315
Location: Austria / Finland
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Oct 2015 15:31 Post subject: |
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| DY_DEAD wrote: | @bart5986
So balance in a game to you means: If you play less, you have to buy ships with real money to keep up? |
That makes no sense.... At least try to understand what i'm saying instead of going on a pay to win rampage.
The whole point of balance is that you can play less, you don't have to keep up and can enjoy the game.
The fact that people are A> Paying B> Playing 16 hours a day C> Owned the game for months is not relevent now is it?
People are always going to be behind and the whole point of balance is so everyone can enjoy it.
And just FYI if you didn't know, I have never paid a cent to Chris Roberts.
Just listen to the following very carefully
You can hate the game for its paid ships based on principle, but don't hate the actual gameplay for that reason as its not logical. There is plenty to potentially hate about the game so you don't need to falsely believe that buying a ship will somehow wreck the gameplay.
Don't forget that the Star Citizen insurance means that everyone has the same risk in the game.
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Oct 2015 15:42 Post subject: |
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That's the whole point though, there is no balance that would make all parties happy.
How could they ever balance it so that people who pay for a ship (1000+ dollars) are just as happy as people who grind for a month. And then also the people who do neither.
Elite doesn't have any P2W content and that's grindy as fuck. If you grind more, you're better and you will probably beat lower class ships. Now factor in a pay2win model and then talk about balance?
People who pay a lot of money will always receive special treatment, you can't avoid it. Otherwise why would they pay? Has it been explained how this system will work in detail? Seems pretty important for such a huge game and playerbase.
I'm glad you've not paid for any ships, yet I don't understand how you can defend their business practice. I would love for this game to be what was promised from the start, but seeing it develop into this money sucking machine just makes me mad (as you've probably noticed). Nothing against you personally of course.
I'm just too cynical to believe that paying for ships will not affect gameplay when the game is released, there's too much money involved.
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Oct 2015 15:50 Post subject: |
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| DY_DEAD wrote: | That's the whole point though, there is no balance that would make all parties happy.
How could they ever balance it so that people who pay for a ship (1000+ dollars) are just as happy as people who grind for a month. And then also the people who do neither.
Elite doesn't have any P2W content and that's grindy as fuck. If you grind more, you're better and you will probably beat lower class ships. Now factor in a pay2win model and then talk about balance?
People who pay a lot of money will always receive special treatment, you can't avoid it. Otherwise why would they pay? Has it been explained how this system will work in detail? Seems pretty important for such a huge game and playerbase.
I'm glad you've not paid for any ships, yet I don't understand how you can defend their business practice. I would love for this game to be what was promised from the start, but seeing it develop into this money sucking machine just makes me mad (as you've probably noticed). Nothing against you personally of course. |
You still don't understand what I mean but if you answer my questions I might understand you.
1. If they removed paid $1000 ships, and the 16 hour a day people got them by grinding straight away anyway then what is the real difference?
2. If Elite had Pay to Win you would see a bunch of pythons and other high end ships in free roam picking on newbies... yet this is exactly what my and my friends experienced. Did you actually play Elite Dangerous?
I see no flaw to the business practice if its an actual good game and the ships are nice and expensive.
You know what wrecks a multiplayer game? When you can spend $30 for 10 million gold and buy all sorts of things. You can't do this in Star Citizen. The $35 ships you can buy now mean nothing.
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Oct 2015 16:09 Post subject: |
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Alright I'll give it a shot.
1: Then it would just be a game, a poorly balanced game, but a game. The gameplay element here is grinding for your ships, if you can buy them in a metgame-shop, then the gameplay element is negated for people who lay down cash. Even if the game is out for a year, the same principal goes, the goal is to gain a better ship, even if others have played the game longer, taking a shortcut negates the experience of grinding. If you think that poses no problem, buying 10 million gold equals to buying a high level ship, it's essentially the same thing, only you don't buy stupid crystals or something but immediately gain a ship.
Ships should be harder to get, perhaps bound to reputation instead of money (something elite is already doing). But if you get to pay to start at the end of that ship grind, you're skipping a part of the game and starting ahead of others. This is less important when the game is out for some time. But it does raise the question of how much Chris cares about balance over their financial income.
2: Yes I played Elite, at the start there were flaws in balancing and people gained money and ships too quickly. There was nothing to do and so people just ended up trolling and destroying anyone and anything. But if you think this is bad, you would rather have these people pay to have this advantage?
People who play more then you are always going to be better, that's the whole point of playing. But I would rather they grind and got their advantage the way I would be doing it, then them paying for it and perhaps even gaining ships that are simply not attainable for me because they're rare and hard to get without paying.
The 35$ ships you can buy now might mean nothing. But there were ships you could buy that gave a definitive advantage. And what about the future, do you think they'll tone down this practice and only sell cosmetic items or such? I highly doubt it.
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Oct 2015 16:24 Post subject: |
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| DY_DEAD wrote: | Alright I'll give it a shot.
1: Then it would just be a game, a poorly balanced game, but a game. The gameplay element here is grinding for your ships, if you can buy them in a metgame-shop, then the gameplay element is negated for people who lay down cash. Even if the game is out for a year, the same principal goes, the goal is to gain a better ship, even if others have played the game longer, taking a shortcut negates the experience of grinding. If you think that poses no problem, buying 10 million gold equals to buying a high level ship, it's essentially the same thing, only you don't buy stupid crystals or something but immediately gain a ship.
Ships should be harder to get, perhaps bound to reputation instead of money (something elite is already doing). But if you get to pay to start at the end of that ship grind, you're skipping a part of the game and starting ahead of others. This is less important when the game is out for some time. But it does raise the question of how much Chris cares about balance over their financial income.
2: Yes I played Elite, at the start there were flaws in balancing and people gained money and ships too quickly. There was nothing to do and so people just ended up trolling and destroying anyone and anything. But if you think this is bad, you would rather have these people pay to have this advantage?
People who play more then you are always going to be better, that's the whole point of playing. But I would rather they grind and got their advantage the way I would be doing it, then them paying for it and perhaps even gaining ships that are simply not attainable for me because they're rare and hard to get without paying.
The 35$ ships you can buy now might mean nothing. But there were ships you could buy that gave a definitive advantage. And what about the future, do you think they'll tone down this practice and only sell cosmetic items or such? I highly doubt it. |
1. I totally get what you mean, it feels bad to grind when you can take the shortcut. (Battlefield for example) But in terms of gameplay it still seems the same.
Lets say the game has been out for a month, how will they stop everyone from using overpowered ships like in Elite?
2. I played around the 1.3 powerplay update which wasn't too long ago and it was still happening.
---
Paid ships can't have an advantage exactly... because you can get them yourself.
Lets say worlds are instanced based on ship types. That would mean even if people went crazy buying $1000 ships, we wouldn't see anymore then the developers intend. Because lets face it we are going to see it quite soon when people are grinding 16 hours a day.
Also I agree about Chris Roberts changing his mind in the future. I am quite sure the game release is going to go well and gameplay will be fine. I do think at this point he is addicted to money and once that starts to slowdown he might start selling ship parts etc.
But I"m not going to make assumptions until it happens.
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Oct 2015 22:42 Post subject: |
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The SC fanboys piss me off royally. They're jumping onto anything they perceive as remotely negative over on the tube. I can't even be bothered to 'debate' anything with them but they keep tagging me with some reply which I really can't be fucked to read. I've had to literally tell them to fuck off as I'm not interested in talking to them or even attempting to sway their unwavering stance over the game. I'm pretty sure if Chris Roberts got his cock out they'd be all over it in a blink of an eye.
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Kaltern
Posts: 5859
Location: Lockerbie, Scotland
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Oct 2015 23:16 Post subject: |
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| xyzg wrote: | | The SC fanboys piss me off royally. They're jumping onto anything they perceive as remotely negative over on the tube. I can't even be bothered to 'debate' anything with them but they keep tagging me with some reply which I really can't be fucked to read. I've had to literally tell them to fuck off as I'm not interested in talking to them or even attempting to sway their unwavering stance over the game. I'm pretty sure if Chris Roberts got his cock out they'd be all over it in a blink of an eye. |
Look for a new stretch goal soon.
Playing Valheim every weekday at 10pm GMT - twitch.tv/kaltern
Follow me on Twitter if you feel like it... @kaltern
My system: Ryzen 7 3700x|Gigabyte RTX 2080 Super Windforce OC|Vengeance 3000Mz 16Gb RAM|2x 500Gb Samsung EVO 970 M.2 SSD |SanDisk SSD PLUS 240 GB + OCZ Vertex 2 60Gb SSD|EVA Supernova 650W PSU|Logitech G27 Wheel|Logitech G19 Gaming Pad|SteelSeries Arctis 7|Logitech G502 Proteus Spectrum Mouse + Logitech MX Master Mouse|Razer Blackwidow Chroma X Keyboard|Oculus Quest 2 + Link|Pixio PX7 Prime 165hz HDR & 1x Samsung 24FG70FQUEN 144Hz curved monitor
-= Word to the wise: Having a higher forum post does not mean you are right. =- |
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Oct 2015 23:38 Post subject: |
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| bart5986 wrote: | | Mchart wrote: | | bart5986 wrote: |
Which engine would you suggest? I think you will find they all have huge downsides.
Cryengine has the most potential as it can handle everything they want except open world. And supposedly they are getting a lot of help from Crytek to do this. |
No clue. All I can tell you is that for all the shit people give Elite Dangerous that in-house engine does the job it needs to do and the game runs fine, and again ED has a substantially smaller development team and less funding. |
Well the huge problem with what you just said is that Elite Dangerous was built from the ground up wrong.
I won't go into detail but to put it simply Elite Dangerous runs on a client trust model, this means if my computer says I'm flying the deathstar then I am.
This is because they run the game on P2P which means everyone trusts everyone and their servers can't do anything about it.
Now I ask you again, can you give one example of an engine that would be suitable for Star Citizen? Because as I'm sure you are starting to see, Cry Engine could end up being the best choice, its hard to know.
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You have a deep misunderstanding of a P2P model. Just because clients are relaying information too each other does not mean you can't keep coherence of the data and be powerless to hacking.
The engine runs the game, and it runs it fine. The same can't be said of the cryengine which can barely handle 64 player crysis wars let alone something of the scale of star citizen.
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Oct 2015 00:18 Post subject: |
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haha 100mill and you can all form an orderly queue
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Oct 2015 13:03 Post subject: |
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| Mchart wrote: | | bart5986 wrote: | | Mchart wrote: |
No clue. All I can tell you is that for all the shit people give Elite Dangerous that in-house engine does the job it needs to do and the game runs fine, and again ED has a substantially smaller development team and less funding. |
Well the huge problem with what you just said is that Elite Dangerous was built from the ground up wrong.
I won't go into detail but to put it simply Elite Dangerous runs on a client trust model, this means if my computer says I'm flying the deathstar then I am.
This is because they run the game on P2P which means everyone trusts everyone and their servers can't do anything about it.
Now I ask you again, can you give one example of an engine that would be suitable for Star Citizen? Because as I'm sure you are starting to see, Cry Engine could end up being the best choice, its hard to know.
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You have a deep misunderstanding of a P2P model. Just because clients are relaying information too each other does not mean you can't keep coherence of the data and be powerless to hacking.
The engine runs the game, and it runs it fine. The same can't be said of the cryengine which can barely handle 64 player crysis wars let alone something of the scale of star citizen. |
What you said makes no sense.
Take a 1v1 battle pure peer to peer just like Elite Dangerous.
Player 1 has damage hacks on that mean twice as much damage is done
Player 2 has shield hacks on which means it can shield three times as much.
It doesn't matter if you trust the other player or only yourself, there isn't a place for either players to get the correct information.
It doesn't matter if only one player is hacking either, in both trust scenarios there is no good outcome.
Now if its a server based connection you can trust 100% of what the server says. You can hack all you want but if player 2 kills player 1 and player 1 has shield hacks, they will die with those hacks on because the dedicated server reports it as so.
Basically in short, a dedicated server is the equivalent to sticking fingers in your ears.
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Oct 2015 13:35 Post subject: |
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What you're saying there completely depends on the kind of netcode they use. Dedicated servers or not.
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Oct 2015 13:43 Post subject: |
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| sausje wrote: | | What you're saying there completely depends on the kind of netcode they use. Dedicated servers or not. |
Yes.. and I am telling you the netcode they use.
I'll also give you a clue as to how bad it is.
In a game with server trust, if I disconnect my Internet and shoot my gun, nothing will happen.
In a game with client trust, (Elite Dangerous) if I disconnect my Internet and shoot my gun, the gun will be shot and it will hit the target and do damage. It is only after a short period of time that the game will decide that since no packets are being sent, the game will disconnect.
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Oct 2015 13:49 Post subject: |
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| bart5986 wrote: | | sausje wrote: | | What you're saying there completely depends on the kind of netcode they use. Dedicated servers or not. |
Yes.. and I am telling you the netcode they use.
I'll also give you a clue as to how bad it is.
In a game with server trust, if I disconnect my Internet and shoot my gun, nothing will happen.
In a game with client trust, (Elite Dangerous) if I disconnect my Internet and shoot my gun, the gun will be shot and it will hit the target and do damage. It is only after a short period of time that the game will decide that since no packets are being sent, the game will disconnect. |
Is Elite so exploitable? Are there hacks for it for max dmg etc?
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Oct 2015 13:58 Post subject: |
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| VGAdeadcafe wrote: | | bart5986 wrote: | | sausje wrote: | | What you're saying there completely depends on the kind of netcode they use. Dedicated servers or not. |
Yes.. and I am telling you the netcode they use.
I'll also give you a clue as to how bad it is.
In a game with server trust, if I disconnect my Internet and shoot my gun, nothing will happen.
In a game with client trust, (Elite Dangerous) if I disconnect my Internet and shoot my gun, the gun will be shot and it will hit the target and do damage. It is only after a short period of time that the game will decide that since no packets are being sent, the game will disconnect. |
Is Elite so exploitable? Are there hacks for it for max dmg etc? |
There are damage hacks but I don't think they are very popular. The most popular hacks seem to be shield hacks because you can make it semi realistic and speed hacking.
Also one thing I'll say again. Elite Dangerous has the best space combat of them all and I think this is partly because its completely client side. Everything is so responsive and smooth.
Star Citizen has awful combat at the moment, I'm unsure if they will improve on it but it can't be easy with server side networking.
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Oct 2015 15:27 Post subject: |
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| bart5986 wrote: | | Star Citizen has awful combat at the moment, I'm unsure if they will improve on it but it can't be easy with server side networking. |
Even if they fix these issues and finish all the planets and bases and ships with full interiors and what not, implement some functional economy and manage to have interesting gameplay to boot, balancing all that into an enjoyable experience for all kinds of players might be even harder (the addition of FPS parts and boarding complicates matters further) and this is where the project might finally break (if it reaches that phase).
I just can't escape the notion that what they envisaged might take years (if not simply almost impossible) to balance out for an MMO game. It would make sense if they had some working MMO prototype first with the basic concepts working and then build on the world around it, rather then build the world segments first and then try to make the game out of it. Appologies if they actually did that, but I didn't see any mention of that on the KS when I supported it (well, SQ42 to be more precise).
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Oct 2015 18:30 Post subject: |
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| bart5986 wrote: | | Mchart wrote: | | bart5986 wrote: |
Well the huge problem with what you just said is that Elite Dangerous was built from the ground up wrong.
I won't go into detail but to put it simply Elite Dangerous runs on a client trust model, this means if my computer says I'm flying the deathstar then I am.
This is because they run the game on P2P which means everyone trusts everyone and their servers can't do anything about it.
Now I ask you again, can you give one example of an engine that would be suitable for Star Citizen? Because as I'm sure you are starting to see, Cry Engine could end up being the best choice, its hard to know.
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You have a deep misunderstanding of a P2P model. Just because clients are relaying information too each other does not mean you can't keep coherence of the data and be powerless to hacking.
The engine runs the game, and it runs it fine. The same can't be said of the cryengine which can barely handle 64 player crysis wars let alone something of the scale of star citizen. |
What you said makes no sense.
Take a 1v1 battle pure peer to peer just like Elite Dangerous.
Player 1 has damage hacks on that mean twice as much damage is done
Player 2 has shield hacks on which means it can shield three times as much.
It doesn't matter if you trust the other player or only yourself, there isn't a place for either players to get the correct information.
It doesn't matter if only one player is hacking either, in both trust scenarios there is no good outcome.
Now if its a server based connection you can trust 100% of what the server says. You can hack all you want but if player 2 kills player 1 and player 1 has shield hacks, they will die with those hacks on because the dedicated server reports it as so.
Basically in short, a dedicated server is the equivalent to sticking fingers in your ears. |
Again, you don't need a middle man to ensure integrity.
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| Posted: Thu, 29th Oct 2015 14:35 Post subject: |
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| Mchart wrote: |
Again, you don't need a middle man to ensure integrity. |
Ok well tell me who ensures integrity?
It can't be the Elite Dangerous servers since there isn't a transfer of combat data to and from their servers for that to happen.
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JBeckman
VIP Member
Posts: 34974
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue, 10th Nov 2015 12:50 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Tue, 10th Nov 2015 13:42 Post subject: |
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Though supposedly his whole rant is about *supporting* Star Citizen. He *supports* the game he knows nothing about.
"30K of non-existent unplayable virtual ships please.." ffs 
