Yeah, I'll take 45-60 over 30-60, that's for sure. Stability is key I completely agree... but so many people use that "solid 30!" or "2D game!" as an argument for why 60 isn't "necessary" and that's just irritating. Even PC derpers are doing it.
I'll take a locked 30 over a locked 45 any day, reason being 45 doesn't play well with a 60hz refresh rate and there's judder due to uneven frame intervals. I only ever deal in steady 60 or steady 30 for that reason.
Well, I can say that Witcher 3 was absolutely smooth when I had fps locked to 45 via riva tuner. Durante made some tests back then and riva tuner rocks.There is little to none difference between playing at 45 or 60 this way but 30 vs 60 is totally another matter.
Yeah, I don't know about you Divvy... but when I capped W3 at 45 it was absolutely fine. No juddering or stuttering that was present at 30, or the 30-60 fluctuations. I wasn't SATISFIED with 45, but it was definitely leaps and bounds above 30.
Yes, I did. Borderless full screen on Windows 8/10 automatically enables vsync, but either way; yes, I enabled vsync in game, and no it didn't cap to 30.
OK, time to roll up the sleeves and get technical.
See, the claim that you'd have no judder at 45fps, or any FPS between 31 and 59, is technically incorrect. It has to do with how the frames updates are sync'd to your refresh rate. If you have a solid 60fps at 60hz, every frame update will arrive on your screen at a ~16.7ms interval. So you get a new frame after the same amount of time, every time. A steady update rate, you could say. At 30fps, you get a new frame every ~33.4ms. Again, even though you only get half the frames of 60fps, you still get them at a steady rate. Now, with 45fps, every other frame is displayed after ~33.4ms and the rest after ~16.7ms. So every other frame will take longer to display than the rest. This causes an unevenness in the frame update, commonly called "judder" ( which is derived from the TV/Movie world when displaying 24fps films on 50hz or 60hz screens ). So even though for you 45fps seems smoother than 30fps, which is fine, there's a perfectly logical technical explanation as to why many people would prefer 30fps over 45fps. They're simply more sensitive to the judder than the low framerate without judder. I'm one of those people. It's the reason console games always lock at 30fps specifically, and not 35 or 40 or 45. It's the only playable framerate under 60 that has no judder.
If you disable vsync, this is moot since you always get a frame on your screen when it's ready, just with tearing. Or if you have g-sync/freesync, you get the same without tearing. This explanation pertains to vsync only.
OK, time to roll up the sleeves and get technical.
See, the claim that you'd have no judder at 45fps, or any FPS between 31 and 59, is technically incorrect.
I don't care. I'm sorry for you and your technical explanation, but 45fps was factually and subjectively better than 30. For me. I had LESS judder at 45 than 30. Again, fact. The rest of your post will not, does not, CAN not, remove or invalidate my experience. You have heard about triple buffering, yes?
~edit~
Subjectively, not objectively, my apologies.
Quote:
So even though for you 45fps seems smoother than 30fps, which is fine, there's a perfectly logical technical explanation as to why many people would prefer 30fps over 45fps.
So you admit that there are those of us that experience 45 being smoother than 30, and that's "fine", but then you claim that I'm wrong and that it cannot be as I - and others - have described? And that "technically" 30 is smoother than 45? As for your "I'm more sensitive" schtick, just don't.. don't even bother. I'm one of the few people I know that gets irritated and affected by the judder during camera panning on TV and MOVIES, that most people don't see, so don't play the "I'm just more sensitive to it than you" stuff.
Areius wrote:
@Divvy, yes, that's indeed somewhat correct. Luckily though, this thing called triple buffering was invented
Thank you.
Last edited by sabin1981 on Thu, 22nd Oct 2015 14:14; edited 2 times in total
OK, time to roll up the sleeves and get technical.
See, the claim that you'd have no judder at 45fps, or any FPS between 31 and 59, is technically incorrect.
I don't care. I'm sorry for you and your technical explanation, but 45fps was factually and objectively better than 30. For me. I had LESS judder at 45 than 30. Again, fact. The rest of your post will not, does not, CAN not, remove or invalidate my experience. You have heard about triple buffering, yes?
Quote:
So even though for you 45fps seems smoother than 30fps, which is fine, there's a perfectly logical technical explanation as to why many people would prefer 30fps over 45fps.
So you admit that there are those of us that experience 45 being smoother than 30, and that's "fine", but then you claim that I'm wrong and that it cannot be as I - and others - have described? And that "technically" 30 is smoother than 45?
Areius wrote:
@Divvy, yes, that's indeed somewhat correct. Luckily though, this thing called triple buffering was invented
Thank you.
Well, he does have a point. 45 might look smoother but can never cause less screen tearing than 30, even with triple buffering, as 30 is about the easiest to do (along with 15) as you just render the same frame twice. With triple buffering instead of every other frame producing a new frame on screen, two out of every three will. So, some frames will be shown longer than others with 45 fps, which is logical as there is no way to just patch in more frames (unless you do some post processing like adding motion blurred frames (which will cause a 1 frame delay in rendering, not really wanted) or predicting movement based on the previous frames (which is essentially what 'overdrive' on most monitors is doing)).
Well 45 was smoother for me and I noticed no visible tearing. That's all there is to it, I'm not going to argue and debate my experiences ^_^ The whole "so did you use vsync or not? You did? AHA!!! Now I can get technical and prove you WRONG! AHA!" crap is just You prefer 30 over 45, I don't. That's... it?
Last edited by sabin1981 on Thu, 22nd Oct 2015 13:57; edited 1 time in total
You don't seem to understand what triple buffering does. It doesn't actually do anything to the issue I wrote about. It's only function is to allow frame rates other than 60...30...20..etc. when vsync'd and GPU limited. The same frame interval issue applies to triple buffering as well.
I guess god exists too because people experience him, huh Sabin?
45 will most likely look smoother indeed because you'll have more frames rendered (I think we can all agree here that 60 fps looks smoother than 30 fps) and 45 fps should have no tearing with triple buffering. However, 45 cannot cause less tearing than 30, it's just not possible (unless they fucked up the fps and it's like 29 or something).
45 will most likely look smoother indeed because you'll have more frames rendered (I think we can all agree here that 60 fps looks smoother than 30 fps) and 45 fps should have no tearing with triple buffering. However, 45 cannot cause less tearing than 30, it's just not possible (unless they fucked up the fps and it's like 29 or something).
"No tearing" "less tearing" - pick one? Because I didn't say "less", I said "no" - as in, no tearing. I noticed no visible tearing at 45 and was told I was "wrong, aha! AHA!" for it. Also I didn't say anything about technicalities between 30 and 45. Please don't attribute statements to me that I did not make
You don't get tearing with vsync, full stop. Triple buffered or not. But you do get judder, again, full stop. Regardless if you notice it or not. It's just technically impossible not to. Your personal experience is irrelevant to facts.
I notice frame/panning judder when watching TV/movies. Constantly. Cannot unsee it. Drives me insane.
I didn't notice any frame/panning judder when playing TW3 at 45fps with vsync enabled and RTSS manual capping.
Again, that's fine. I'm not contesting what you notice or not. I'm just trying to explain how things actually are. Like someone explaining infra-red to you even if you can't see it, for example. There's necessarily judder at 45fps due to how the GPU-display interaction works. There isn't necessarily judder at 30fps, though there may be if the engine is bonkers or the FPS lock isn't very well implemented ( see Bloodborne on the PS4 ). Now what I'd expect from any rational person is to allow the possibility that some other people will notice the judder at 45fps even when you don't. The explanation is exactly why you see judder in films. It's just that at 45fps you get more frames and the judder will seem less prominent as the frame intervals are smaller, though still uneven just like in the film case.
Now what I'd expect from any rational person is to allow the possibility that some other people will notice the judder at 45fps even when you don't.
Just like you allowing others to claim they didn't notice or experience any judder? Before you tried to prove us wrong with technical claims? Come on man I never denied your experience, in fact I specifically said "I don't know about you Divvy, but it was fine for me"
i can understand that between locked 45 and 60 there might not be a big difference in judder for many people, thats perfectly fine.
its all good as long as nobody comes up with drivel like forcing yourself to play 15 fps shit for half an hour to make 30 look like 60 afterwards, like a certain insane person on this forum
You're getting me wrong. I'm just telling you why others would notice judder at 45fps and prefer 30fps. It's incorrect for you to claim there's not judder at 45fps. It's correct for you to claim you don't notice any stutter at 45fps. It's incorrect for you to claim there isn't infra-red. It's correct for you to claim you don't notice infra-red.
"I was playing this game at this framerate, there was no judder for me, no stuttering, it was a much better experience than that other framerate"
"You're wrong! Here is a technical explanation as to why you're WRONG, now ADMIT YOU'RE WRONG!!!!!"
Yes, I see where you're coming from. I'm off to play Knights of Pen & Paper 2, have a nice day =)
The_Zeel wrote:
its all good as long as nobody comes up with drivel like forcing yourself to play 15 fps shit for half an hour to make 30 look like 60 afterwards, like a certain insane person on this forum
Just take a look at this video from Digital Foundry, with the PS4 running a locked 30fps and the PC running unlocked above 30fps. Look at the frametime graph on the side. The PS4 is, at least for the vast majority of time, at an unflinching 33.4ms. This is judder-free by definition. The PC is constantly switching back and forth between 16.7ms and 33.4ms. This causes judder. It's exactly because of what I explained above. You just can't have anywhere between 31-59fps on a 60hz screen vsync'd and not have this frametime variation. Triple buffering has nothing to do with it. Only G-Sync will smooth out the frametimes without causing tearing.
They didn't try to cap fps using riva tuner thus it is irrelevant to the discussion
It doesn't matter. Rivatuner cap will not change the behavior of vsync.
AFAIK Durante only tested with 30fps cap, which would do exactly as I say. Provide even frametimes. If he tested with 45fps cap, the frametimes wouldn't be even unless he had a 45hz or 90hz monitor.
20 days. 20 days ago it was October 2nd, that wasn't so long ago. Cmon.
It wasn't so long ago they unveiled the game at E3. How time flies
Now it'll only slow down to a crawl as we get closer and closer to the date, it's like a black hole. Time slows down more and more the closer you get to the core.
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As for your "I'm more sensitive" schtick, just don't.. don't even bother. I'm one of the few people I know that gets irritated and affected by the judder during camera panning on TV and MOVIES, that most people don't see, so don't play the "I'm just more sensitive to it than you" stuff.
but did you check what Durante wrote and his graphs?
You prefer 30 over 45, I don't. That's... it?
