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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24656
Location: Your Mom
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 Posted: Mon, 1st Sep 2014 09:14 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | The narrow and simplistic "5GHz is 'better'" look makes literally no sense. Per clock, the Haswell architecture is a lot more efficient than Ivy Bridge, let alone Sandy Bridge. So at that 4.5GHz, a 5820K should perform better. In cases I've seen, where the older CPUs "win", it's by an irrelevant 3-5 fps, where the obvious bottleneck is actually the GPU. Meanwhile, that 2500K, even at a liquid nitrogen cooled 6GHz, is pretty limiting as a machine for anything other than gaming and not future-proof. So yes, while you have a slight margin of insignificant advantage in some games, you miss on a lot of performance that is there for the taking. The only drawbacks here are price and power consumption. |
| Quote: | Clock for Clock: Sandy Bridge vs Ivy Bridge vs Haswell:
Our first result, the single threaded Cinebench 11.5 score, shows us some very important information. Haswell turns out to be just about 5% faster than Ivy Bridge that is just about 4% faster than Sandy Bridge. The total IPC improvement from SNB to Haswell totals 9%
...
The AES result from TrueCrypt shows a nice jump as the AES-NI implementation has improved significantly in Haswell and gives it a 20% edge. The average results in other encryption methods shows a 5% edge for Haswell over Ivy Bridge and a 15% performance lead over the Sandy Bridge CPU.
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Finally, our x264 benchmark results show a similar 4.5% advantage for Haswell over IVB and a 10.5% edge over Sandy Bridge on the first pass. |
I still wouldn't bother if I had a Sandy 25K/25k5/26K/27K. Jumping the gun on the first gen DDR4 boards with new RAM etc. is very costly.
Next up comes Broadwell and we can forget about that one completely since it's a shrink and focusing on low-power-battery-friendly. Skylake is the one that will kick butt.
Skylake is the one to jump the train on. That's the first real next-gen Intel-Tick since Sandy Bridge. Ivy and Haswell are both just derivatives of the Sandy core with ~5-7% better IPC which simply isn't worth a major rebuild.
I've got my Ivy 3570K running @ 4.8GHz (thank you my lovely H100i) and I'm very content with that.
I do know that feeling, the urge, the "must have... my preccciiiooouusssss".. The need for upgrading even though it's economical and rational folly.
Intel Skylake:
PCI Express 4.0
DDR4
AVX 3.2
Each RAM-module will have it's separate channel to the memory controller (on the performance variants) which means 4 separate channels of DDR4.
| Quote: | An important redesign in Skylake will be that the fully integrated voltage regulator (FIVR), which was introduced with Haswell processors, will be abandoned and no longer included on the die.
14 nm manufacturing process
LGA 1151 socket
Z170/H170 chipset (Sunrise Point)
Thermal design power (TDP) up to 95 W (LGA 1151)
* Support for both DDR3 SDRAM and DDR4 SDRAM in mainstream variants, with up to 64 GB of RAM on LGA 1151 variants.
* Support for 20 PCI Express 3.0 lanes (LGA 1151)
* Support for PCI Express 4.0 (Skylake-E/EP/EX)
* Support for Thunderbolt 3.0 (Alpine Ridge)
128 KB L1 cache (64 KB 16-way set associative instruction cache + 64 KB 16-way set associative data cache; two cycles)
512 KB L2 cache, 16-way set associative (six cycles)
12 MB L3 cache, 24-way set associative (12 cycles)
* 64 to 128 MB L4 eDRAM cache
Up to four cores as the default mainstream configuration
* Support for SATA Express
* AVX-512F: Advanced Vector Extensions 3.2
* Integer register increased from 16 in x64 standard to 32 in EM64T enhanced mode (r16–r31 for enhanced mode only, while it can be used for memory segment in normal x64 ISA)
Intel SHA Extensions: SHA-1 and SHA-256 (Secure Hash Algorithms)
Intel MPX (Memory Protection Extensions)
* Intel ADX (Multi-Precision Add-Carry Instruction Extensions) |
I put *'s in front of the most interesting and important news coming with Skylake (which I believe will be the biggest jump in IPC since Intel went from Nehalem (Lynnfield = i5 and Bloomfield = i7) to Sandy Bridge).
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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Stige
Posts: 3545
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Mon, 1st Sep 2014 11:42 Post subject: |
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People seem to fail to realize how much more effort and work these new shitty power saving CPUs also require to hit those clocks that 2500K does with a breeze.
Overclocking anything past Ivy is a pain in the ass thank to the shitty TIM in them, I mean I do have a 3570K at 5GHz but I have delidded it and running CLU inside out, tops out at 65C in Prime at 1.52V but my god was that an effort compared to running my old 2500K at 5GHz, no need to delid or anything :l
I just had my hands on a 4670K for a day and how the fuck do those things hit 90C+ in Prime _STOCK_?????
Wtf kind of shit are they made out of...
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| Posted: Mon, 1st Sep 2014 11:48 Post subject: I have left. |
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Stige
Posts: 3545
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Mon, 1st Sep 2014 14:54 Post subject: |
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| Stige wrote: | People seem to fail to realize how much more effort and work these new shitty power saving CPUs also require to hit those clocks that 2500K does with a breeze.
Overclocking anything past Ivy is a pain in the ass thank to the shitty TIM in them, I mean I do have a 3570K at 5GHz but I have delidded it and running CLU inside out, tops out at 65C in Prime at 1.52V but my god was that an effort compared to running my old 2500K at 5GHz, no need to delid or anything :l
I just had my hands on a 4670K for a day and how the fuck do those things hit 90C+ in Prime _STOCK_?????
Wtf kind of shit are they made out of... |
My 4670K runs at constant x40 = 4GHz with stock voltage on air.. well granted, it's a HUGE FUCKING air.. but still air 
It barely hits 50C in games.
The russian in the article, had it running at x42, but I don't see any need.
| Lutzifer wrote: | | and yes, mine is only average |
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Stige
Posts: 3545
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Mon, 1st Sep 2014 15:46 Post subject: |
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| StrEagle wrote: | | Stige wrote: | People seem to fail to realize how much more effort and work these new shitty power saving CPUs also require to hit those clocks that 2500K does with a breeze.
Overclocking anything past Ivy is a pain in the ass thank to the shitty TIM in them, I mean I do have a 3570K at 5GHz but I have delidded it and running CLU inside out, tops out at 65C in Prime at 1.52V but my god was that an effort compared to running my old 2500K at 5GHz, no need to delid or anything :l
I just had my hands on a 4670K for a day and how the fuck do those things hit 90C+ in Prime _STOCK_?????
Wtf kind of shit are they made out of... |
My 4670K runs at constant x40 = 4GHz with stock voltage on air.. well granted, it's a HUGE FUCKING air.. but still air
It barely hits 50C in games.
The russian in the article, had it running at x42, but I don't see any need. |
Yeah the toothpaste combined with the half-sized stock cooler compared to what Sandy had, yeeaaaaaaaaah...
Sure it "only" hit ~75C while playing BF3 with 42x but still, my god those things are horrid And that was with Gelid Extreme so no cheap paste, just the toothpaste inside the chip stopping the heat from transferring :<
Some of them do overclock rather well though if I remember correctly, if you delid them that is.
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| Posted: Mon, 1st Sep 2014 15:50 Post subject: |
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did they fix the toothpaste in 4690K?
Also I read some people who had delid theirs, had their lid/chip? crack..
| Lutzifer wrote: | | and yes, mine is only average |
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| Posted: Mon, 1st Sep 2014 17:31 Post subject: I have left. |
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| Posted: Mon, 1st Sep 2014 17:42 Post subject: |
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what is haswell refresh?
| Lutzifer wrote: | | and yes, mine is only average |
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| Posted: Mon, 1st Sep 2014 18:56 Post subject: I have left. |
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| Posted: Mon, 1st Sep 2014 19:11 Post subject: |
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Haswell refresh is i5/i7-4*90 series i think, the ones that were released 2 months ago.
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| Posted: Mon, 1st Sep 2014 19:50 Post subject: |
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so I can replace my 4670K with 4690K? 
| Lutzifer wrote: | | and yes, mine is only average |
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd Sep 2014 20:58 Post subject: |
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http://www.xtremerigs.net/2014/09/01/thoughts-on-x99/
Ryzen 9800X3D CO Per Core ~-28 | Freezer III 360 A-RGB & 3x Phanteks T30 | Strix X670E-F WiFi | MSI GeForce RTX 5090 Ventus OC | Fury Beast 64GB (2x 32GB) DDR5 5600MHz C40 @ 6000MHz C28 | FURY Renegade G5 4TB PCIe 5.0 | 38GN950-B | S.M.S.L RAW-MDA1 & HiFiMAN Arya Organic | Lancool III Snow White + 4x be quiet! Silent Wings Pro 4 140mm | RM1000x (2021) Gold | G Pro X SUPERLIGHT 2 & POWERPLAY | Win 11 Pro | Logitech MX MECHANICAL
Sometimes I publish YouTube videos: https://www.youtube.com/@RandomTechChannel
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd Sep 2014 21:58 Post subject: |
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| escalibur wrote: | | http://www.xtremerigs.net/2014/09/01/thoughts-on-x99/ |
"Should i upgrde?"
And if i have a 2500K without OC (and not intending to) and a 660GTX?...
BAZINGA! (I mean,if Sandy Bridge's "so popular" (When OC'd) he should've included such thing in the article)
ASUS X570 TUF GAMING PLUS, 32GB DDR4@2666 ,RYZEN 5800X3D (NO OC),GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Super GAMING OC, Western Digital Blue 4TB 5400RPM + SAMSUNG 860 EVO 500+1TB GB SSDs , OEM SATA DVD 22xNoctua NH-D15 Chromax Black, BenQ XL2420T Case: Be Quiet! DARK BASE PRO 901. PSU CORSAIR RM1200 SHIFT
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Sep 2014 10:33 Post subject: |
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misleading advice that doesn't reveal some important facts regarding gaming and X99.
for multi gpu setup X99 is far superior. if you plan on going 2 way sli, you can get 5820K which is just a little more expensive than 4790K and reap full benefits of both of your GPUs. OC that cpu and you'll have this 6 core 12 thread bad boy running at 4.5Ghz.
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Sep 2014 10:47 Post subject: |
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check some SLI graphs, i forgot which site had them, but SLI performance difference on X99 vs Z97 was noticeable.
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Sep 2014 12:30 Post subject: |
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| rgb#000 wrote: | | check some SLI graphs, i forgot which site had them, but SLI performance difference on X99 vs Z97 was noticeable. |
Any links? I couldn't find any.
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73259
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Sep 2014 15:56 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | Intel Skylake:
PCI Express 4.0
DDR4
AVX 3.2
Each RAM-module will have it's separate channel to the memory controller (on the performance variants) which means 4 separate channels of DDR4. |
Most of these features (as well as from the ones I didn't quote here) will only be available in the Skylake-E and Skylake-EP lines, which are at least two years away. For someone like me, I feel like my X58+930 have run their course. |
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14387
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Sep 2014 16:25 Post subject: |
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Going from 930 to Haswell-E is an absolutely legitimate upgrade. I dont suspect Haswell-E to Skylake will give an equally big performance upgrade. And Haswell-E already supports Quad-Channel DDR4 Ram aswell.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73259
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Sep 2014 16:50 Post subject: |
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Skylake-E might be 12 core, which could be a significant upgrade for those that need it.
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24656
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Sep 2014 16:52 Post subject: |
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| couleur wrote: | | Going from 930 to Haswell-E is an absolutely legitimate upgrade. I dont suspect Haswell-E to Skylake will give an equally big performance upgrade. And Haswell-E already supports Quad-Channel DDR4 Ram aswell. |
If you go for the more expensive setup based on X99 (unless I've missed something).
But I agree, X58/930 to Haswell-E is a massive upgrade.
My argument is about jumping from Sandy/Ivy i5/i7 K-series to Haswell/E, something I feel is completely unnecessary and not economically defensible if you have a good cooler and overclock your Sandy/Ivy to 4.2-4.8GHz.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14387
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Sep 2014 17:05 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | Skylake-E might be 12 core, which could be a significant upgrade for those that need it. |
There is a probability, but it might aswell not, and since you need the power now... And in the case you'd need more than the 8 cores, you could aswell wait for Haswell Xeon boards with 2 sockets and get 2 5820Ks.
| Frant wrote: | | couleur wrote: | | Going from 930 to Haswell-E is an absolutely legitimate upgrade. I dont suspect Haswell-E to Skylake will give an equally big performance upgrade. And Haswell-E already supports Quad-Channel DDR4 Ram aswell. |
If you go for the more expensive setup based on X99 (unless I've missed something).
But I agree, X58/930 to Haswell-E is a massive upgrade.
My argument is about jumping from Sandy/Ivy i5/i7 K-series to Haswell/E, something I feel is completely unnecessary and not economically defensible if you have a good cooler and overclock your Sandy/Ivy to 4.2-4.8GHz. |
I meant it pretty much regardless of price. If you go X99 now, you may pay more than going Skylake later, but if money isnt the biggest issue, I suspect you wont miss much on Skylake and since Leo will have to wait for E/EP anyway it wont matter that much.
Your argument is absolutely valid from a gaming and otherwise normal use perspective though. I'd never even think about upgrading my 3570K atm.
I really hope for Skylake to bring me at least valid reason to upgrade my 3570K but I doubt it wil.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Sep 2014 17:17 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | Frant wrote: | Intel Skylake:
PCI Express 4.0
DDR4
AVX 3.2
Each RAM-module will have it's separate channel to the memory controller (on the performance variants) which means 4 separate channels of DDR4. |
Most of these features (as well as from the ones I didn't quote here) will only be available in the Skylake-E and Skylake-EP lines, which are at least two years away. For someone like me, I feel like my X58+930 have run their course. |
By that time I hope that majority of current game engines' versios will support more than 4 cores. There is just no point of pumping money in extreme powerful PC and then sit and wait for some tech demos to come out to get most of your extra expensive hardware.
What I've seen so far X99 is ok if you are upgrading 1366 platform to the new one but otherwise it's just not worth atm IMO. I would rather invest that extra money into new/another GPU.
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73259
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Sep 2014 17:20 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | | couleur wrote: | | Going from 930 to Haswell-E is an absolutely legitimate upgrade. I dont suspect Haswell-E to Skylake will give an equally big performance upgrade. And Haswell-E already supports Quad-Channel DDR4 Ram aswell. |
If you go for the more expensive setup based on X99 (unless I've missed something).
But I agree, X58/930 to Haswell-E is a massive upgrade.
My argument is about jumping from Sandy/Ivy i5/i7 K-series to Haswell/E, something I feel is completely unnecessary and not economically defensible if you have a good cooler and overclock your Sandy/Ivy to 4.2-4.8GHz. |
From what perspective? Strictly gaming? I'd say there is a clear jump in going from a 2600K/3770K/4770K/4790K to Haswell-E outside of the gaming world. Going from 4960X -> 5960X seems a lot more incremental, though. |
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73259
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Sep 2014 19:07 Post subject: |
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I think it's worth waiting a little for motherboards to get fixes in their firmware, and RAM manufacturers to release better sticks.
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Sep 2014 19:59 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | I think it's worth waiting a little for motherboards to get fixes in their firmware, and RAM manufacturers to release better sticks. |
THIS ( , BITCH!)...(Just kidding but still THIS)
Following "Terminator's" Advice until trusty (+user) reviews comes out...
ASUS X570 TUF GAMING PLUS, 32GB DDR4@2666 ,RYZEN 5800X3D (NO OC),GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Super GAMING OC, Western Digital Blue 4TB 5400RPM + SAMSUNG 860 EVO 500+1TB GB SSDs , OEM SATA DVD 22xNoctua NH-D15 Chromax Black, BenQ XL2420T Case: Be Quiet! DARK BASE PRO 901. PSU CORSAIR RM1200 SHIFT
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| Page 13 of 15 |
All times are GMT + 1 Hour |
With Haswell toothpaste the CPUs would burn 
) Surely 1150 CPU will cost more than 150€ (what I can get for my 2500K) but still it's a hell out of cheaper deal than upgrade to X99 considering current mobos' and DDR4's prices.
