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 Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 10:59 Post subject: Women in videogames |
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For the last few years (but predominantly this year), there have been many articles popping up on the internet about inequality of women in video game industry. Inequality of the women MAKING the games and the women IN the games. It's hard to work as a game designer. I am not taken seriously. Why can't I play as a female assassin? Why aren't there more games with female protagonist? etc...
I will start in the beginning of my thought process. Let's compare politics and game industry for example. Like politics, game industry has been largely controlled by men. But there is one difference. While 100 years ago women weren't allowed to vote and they were treated as less equal, as a result they are now having hard time in politics. And that is the men's fault. Now there are quotas and other measures being introduced so women have easier time penetrating into this field. We owe them this much at least.
But when it comes to video games the situation is completely different. There were no restrictions. Women were always free to pitch in and contribute to the video game industry. But instead they dismissed it as a silly hobby. A waste of time. But now as gaming became one of the most popular form of entertainment, they suddenly want in.
Ok, no problem. You came late to the party. You didn't help to set the table or prepare the grill but at least you brought some beer, right? No? Hmmm...
Instead of trying to prove themselves and subsequently get invited, they force themselves in on the basis of gender equality. Correct me if I am wrong but there could not be more than a handful of women who have founded an indie studio and used their skills and creativity to to prove themselves so they would be taken seriously. I KNOW THAT THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS. There are always exceptions. But exceptions dont't make a rule as some would make you believe.
I know how hard can a life be when you are discriminated. I myself have been discriminated at work because of my gender (I am a man). You feel hopeless and angry. But unless it's really bad, there is usually a way out of it.
From experience I know that the best ideas come from cooperation of men and women. Their minds are so different and yet when you mix it all together the result is far superior to the one created by only one gender. But what is happening in game industry is not right. There must be another way because this cannot end well....
How do you feel about this? Do you agree or not?
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| Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 11:21 Post subject: |
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not again. these days everything should be equal for both men and women. and well most of the time it is.
people who bring this up are probably forgetting that we are not living in the 1970's anymore.
stop with that feminist victim bullshit already
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matta666
Posts: 1061
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 11:36 Post subject: |
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The way I see it, videogames are different to politics in that they're entertainment that reflects the taste of their customers.
If you want to change videogames, fuck off and change society until we want feminist videogames.
Good luck with that.
Quentin Tarrantino doesn't have to deal with this and his films tend to be as male oriented and sexualised as it gets.
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Morphineus
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Posts: 24883
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 12:30 Post subject: |
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Sigh...
Not even the hump can escape the fad of last year.
I wish Americans would be as vocal on other subjects than just this one (the biggest outcry and over the top reactions come from there).
Anywho, welcome to the internet herd.
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| Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 12:47 Post subject: |
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Horrordee
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 13:04 Post subject: |
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Haha, yeah this post won't work with this audience.
Next time, try approaching Hell's Angels about using Suzukis.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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matta666
Posts: 1061
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 13:11 Post subject: |
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I also think the people on the pro side of the argument always present offensive tweets as representative of everybody that disagrees with them, which is just generalisation and ignorant.
I think men organically sexualise women; that's not to say women shouldn't rise to whatever position in society that their potential can attain, it's just nature.
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sanchin
Posts: 763
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 14:18 Post subject: |
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It's the same for the whole IT world, with programming in general affected quite much. But it is as you say - nobody ever prevented women from that. Hell, even the "first programmer" was a lady (Ada Lovelace).
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tw1st
Posts: 6112
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 16:02 Post subject: |
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I have nothing against women in video games, in the industry, or in the IT job market. Whatever, you want it? Come and get it....
It just so happens that the majority are men, that's all, nothing sexist about it... same with mechanics.... how come women aren't flocking to become mechanics?! IT ISN'T FAIR!
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Nalo
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| Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 16:50 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 06:18; edited 2 times in total
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| Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 17:05 Post subject: |
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I hate the trend in the movies recently. ALL "survival horror" (derp) movies are 100% predictable - there's a woman - she will be the sole survivor. NO. DOUBT. ABOUT. THAT. What a bullshit really..
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Nalo
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| Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 18:12 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 06:18; edited 2 times in total
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Fri, 29th Aug 2014 21:11 Post subject: |
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| warriormax wrote: | | I hate the trend in the movies recently. ALL "survival horror" (derp) movies are 100% predictable - there's a woman - she will be the sole survivor. NO. DOUBT. ABOUT. THAT. What a bullshit really.. |
Contrary to 99% of past movies where a man has been the sole survivor.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Sat, 30th Aug 2014 03:19 Post subject: |
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Men should just own up and make peace with the superior force, that is women.
Oh, and why should men be in any video games?
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| Posted: Sat, 30th Aug 2014 11:55 Post subject: |
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| oblivionrpg wrote: |
Instead of trying to prove themselves and subsequently get invited, they force themselves in on the basis of gender equality. |
I think there's very few women devs who force themselves in based on gender equality, really. From what I've read, a lot seem cautious about pointing out their gender because it's such a dangerous thing to draw attention to (stalkers/rape threats/personal details being posted online, etc.).
What a lot of women do, though, is point out where things are unbalanced, and because of their gender, it can appear they're forcing themselves in. Anita Sarkeesian (for example) may not be the most rigorous reviewer, but taken in the wider context of gaming, her arguments about the sexist nature of games make sense (give-or-take). Now, you could argue that's using "gender equality" to force herself into the industry, but by doing that, you're the one who brings gender into it. If she were a man, you'd just acknowledge what was said/argue the points/ignore it. But because it's a woman pointing out inequality towards women, it looks like she's using her gender to get her/other women into the industry.
The recent dust-up with Zoe Quinn is a good example - she tweeted many times that she just wants to create games, but 4chan/random dicks were intent on trying to dirty her name (and that of an ex-RPS journo). Would this have happened if she were a man? Damn unlikely, I think. So, it's not that she drew attention to her gender, it's that other people took exception to it/wanted to harass a woman.
This is an interesting read:
http://kotaku.com/investigation-a-video-game-studio-from-hell-511872642
It shows that developers can have a sexist environment, and that that sexism isn't related to them "forcing themselves in", but rather due to sexist attitudes from others. When it's revealed, it looks like they're arguing for jobs based on gender, but in reality, they're being prejudiced against, and they're just trying to have parity with men.
One thing I will note is that this doesn't account for governmental initiatives to increase the number of women in certain areas through legislation - for example, requiring companies to hire X-Number of women. That's related, but it's not something that individuals try and do, it's simply the government forcing the issue (whether or not you think that's good is debatable).
Pixieking
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| Posted: Sat, 30th Aug 2014 12:55 Post subject: |
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It's still funny when people fall for Zoe Quinn's garbage.
Talk about playing the victim card well.
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| Posted: Sat, 30th Aug 2014 13:15 Post subject: |
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| Pixieking wrote: | Well, that's the thing I was getting at (kind of) - there's plenty of arguments against both people without mentioning gender. I mean, Anita ripped off artwork, it's true. So, why mention "the V card"? You wouldn't say a guy is playing the "D card", would you? You just brought gender into a point about plagiarism. Wtf? 
And so what about Zoe's Patreon? Patreon is used for all kinds of things - if she wants to set-up a Patreon, let her. Are you angered that it's a woman doing it? Would you have an issue if it were a guy? I mean, fair enough if you would, but it seems a flimsy thing to get upset at her about.  |
V stands for victim, then again thinking about it, it can also stand for vagina. And of course gender is brought into this because that is what they use to make their money.
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| Posted: Sat, 30th Aug 2014 13:51 Post subject: |
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Ah, I've heard it used for both. But in any case, would you be so quick to use "Victim" for a guy? The only guy I can think who it's been used for would be Phil Fish.
Pixieking
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ASUS P8P67 Evo - Intel i7 3770k - 2X4GB GSkill RipJaws X DDR3 1600 - HIS 7950 IceQ - Creative XtremeMusic Soundcard - NZXT Phantom 530 - Thermaltake Toughpower XT 675 - Win7 x64
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| Posted: Sat, 30th Aug 2014 15:05 Post subject: |
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nothing wrong with patreon
good way to support a person whose content you enjoy consistently
i support a few youtubers who do quality content and i feel like freeloader having my adblock on
there's a lot of things wrong with her, but i don't think this is a good example
also, there's a thread for this discussion;
http://www.nfohump.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=99965
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| Posted: Sat, 30th Aug 2014 21:17 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | warriormax wrote: | | I hate the trend in the movies recently. ALL "survival horror" (derp) movies are 100% predictable - there's a woman - she will be the sole survivor. NO. DOUBT. ABOUT. THAT. What a bullshit really.. |
Contrary to 99% of past movies where a man has been the sole survivor. |
Its more plausible the man to be the sole survivor. He's stronger and more capable (in killing stuff, but thats the movie about after all). Its comical to see 45kg women to survive against some monster, freak, demon, mutant, horde of zombies, bandits, enemy soldiers, whatever, and all trained mercs/soldiers/men to die just like that.
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Morphineus
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat, 30th Aug 2014 21:30 Post subject: |
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Aliens <3
Skinny weaver for the survival! 
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sat, 30th Aug 2014 22:03 Post subject: |
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| warriormax wrote: | | fisk wrote: | | warriormax wrote: | | I hate the trend in the movies recently. ALL "survival horror" (derp) movies are 100% predictable - there's a woman - she will be the sole survivor. NO. DOUBT. ABOUT. THAT. What a bullshit really.. |
Contrary to 99% of past movies where a man has been the sole survivor. |
Its more plausible the man to be the sole survivor. He's stronger and more capable (in killing stuff, but thats the movie about after all). Its comical to see 45kg women to survive against some monster, freak, demon, mutant, horde of zombies, bandits, enemy soldiers, whatever, and all trained mercs/soldiers/men to die just like that. |
More plausible? Wat.
I can create a million scenarios where it is more plausible for a 45lbs woman to survive, and I can create a million scenarios where it isn't. It all depends on the circumstances. In some scenarios it helps to be small to be hide and ignored as a target, in other scenarios it helps to be big and muscular.
To claim that strength and size alone would be some be-all-end-all skill is just pure ignorance. Someone who is able to treat wounds and stave off infections for example would be more likely to survive in a certain scenario (jungle) whereas someone who isn't strong could impossibly push a huge rock out of the way.
Unless we're talking specific scenarios, it's impossible to have a debate on the subject.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13515
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| Posted: Sat, 30th Aug 2014 23:52 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 06:18; edited 2 times in total
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| Posted: Sat, 30th Aug 2014 23:57 Post subject: |
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| Nalo wrote: | The only woman that survive in these type of films have adopted male characteristics and lost their female qualities. Skinny weaver for example.
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Odd example, because Ripley is shown as both strong, and feminine. In Alien, she's shown in tight panties and top, accentuating her figure. In Aliens, she's the mother figure (her lost daughter and "adoption" of Newt). In Alien 3, she's the matriarch (quite literally), as she plays host to a queen, and sacrifices herself for the common good.
Pixieking
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13515
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| Posted: Sun, 31st Aug 2014 00:11 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 06:18; edited 2 times in total
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| Posted: Sun, 31st Aug 2014 02:04 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:58; edited 1 time in total
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