Since the beginning of this endless economic crisis, I've been hearing from many people around me how awesome Belgium is. The people around me are mostly ignorant people though, stuck in the mindset "everything in NL sucks while everything in Belgium and Turkey is awesome". Since I am in a phase of my life in which I can move to another country without much hassle (no school going child and a rental house), this thing is starting to tickle my interest.
Here are the myths/facts I hear about Belgium:
- taxes in NL are very high (car/basic necessities/income), in Belgium it's low.
- child support in Belgium is high (~140 monthly) compared to NL (~60 monthly).
- there are much more job opportunities in Belgium (no idea what this sentiment is based on).
- the job market in NL is very discriminating. I never was aware of any discrimination to my person. If there is discrimination, why wouldn't there be any in Belgium?
- austerity measures in NL will ruin the economy while the economy in Belgium goes well.
- healthcare in NL is very expensive, in Belgium they pay almost nothing.
Much of this is based on emotions/gut feelings (Turkish style), not a single one of these people can give me numbers or facts ("my cousin in Belgium tells me this", "my sister in Belgium said so" etc.).
Now the first things that come to my mind are: how is the education system (it's very good in NL)? How is the quality of the healthcare system? Is this low tax, high moniez utopia sustainable in the long run?
I'll also list some bad things I have observed in Belgium since bad things have the most impact on a person:
- very bad road upkeep (think around Antwerpen, Gent, Brussel).
- city plans seem to be at random.
- renting is a bitch since most are renting from persons (high rent, bad upkeep).
Can someone who lives in Belgium, or even someone who has made the transition from NL recently, bust or confirm these myths/facts? I am seriously thinking of moving there. Not because I think NL sucks so much, but because I still have such an opportunity.
Well, at least the southern (french speaking) parts of Belgium are anything but prosperous.
Cant be of much help, but I know a few people living and working in Brx, and enjoying it very much.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
Belgium has very good and very cheap if almost free education / healthcare.
Roads were notorious bad compared to Germany but the harsh past winters forced the state to invest alot of money so the mainroads are almost all renewed in my area.
French part doing bad is a myth from the 1990s that people still like to tell, they are doing alot better now.
What sucks about Belgium is the high cost of living, not really taxes perse which are high but people dont mind cause you get alot in return, but things like energy and rent / house prices are through the roof.
I used to live in Belgium (from birth till December 2012) and have a sister living in The Netherlands. I have always followed Media and politics from both countries (I come from the Flemish part: De Kempen/Province of Antwerp). So hope I'm a bit qualified to answer some
- Taxes are a bit higher in The Netherlands overall, but I wouldn't say Belgium is THAT much lower. Just lower.
- Child support is higher in Belgium, but I don't have recent numbers on those.
- If you have the education both have job opportunities. Each country has it's own proffessions that are high in demand. Best to look that up on their job searching sites.
If you speak Dutch+French+English you have a bit of an edge in Belgium.
- Discriminating is every job market in my opinion. Wouldn't see why NL is worse than BE. They will always treat foreigners a bit different in both countries, but that fades away when they see you are skilled for the job.
- This is my personal opinion... But I think The Netherlands have more bad decisions to tackle the crisis than Belgium does. Belgium isn't Ideal either but I see less detrimental measures in the long term.
- Healthcare is quite cheap in Belgium, so far I only experienced Sweden being lower than Belgium and that came as a big surprise to me.
- Education level in Belgium is way better. More pressure but the amount of knowledge you'll leave school with is higher than NL or Sweden can say that without a doubt. NL has a better approach to it by it being more free form than Belgium if that is what you prefer.
-Road upkeep differs from city to city. I had less troubles with that where I lived. Netherlands is a bit more friendlier towards cyclists and pedestrians tho.
-City plans... differs from city to city. I could always complain but where I lived was rather good overall.
Renting.... again it really differs from place to place. Some are expensive or bad shape others are cheap or in good shape depends where you locate and who you rent from. Social housing is cheap and usually in good condition. There is a waiting list however.
When I don't specify which country, then I'm talking of Belgium.
Posting this as someone who lives just about on the border, has family living in Belgium and travels there very frequently.
Education is mighty fine albeit very different from NL. I don't agree with Morphineus that it's better though, really depends on WHAT you're talking about exactly. Dutch VWO is still ahead of Belgian middle school, Universities are very direction-dependent (technical studies are better in NL in most cases). Healthcare's better in some ways IMO (less fuss about a lot of things).
Taxes and prices in general aren't very different - except real estate and cars. Despite what Paintface says, if you *buy* rather than rent, Belgium is much cheaper. The same kind of land + house easily costs 2-3 times as much in NL. Downside is that there are plenty of places that haven't been maintained very well either, so you will need to invest. But considering how much cheaper it is, that's nothing. As far as utilities (GWEI) go: some are cheaper, some are more expensive. All in all, hardly any difference.
Diesel is also a very viable option in Belgium compared to NL, although if I'm not mistaken the Belgian government is working on some laws to fuck that up a bit Paintface?
On average, road quality is still fucking shite. I mean really, really bad. It's embarrassing, but no matter where I cross the goddamn border (and I can cross into either Wallonia or Flanders within 15 minutes), you KNOW when you're in Belgium. The southeastern part of Wallonia is atrocious, although Liège seems to have noticed and have been "fixing" the roads around the city. That said, they've also been "fixing" the freeway towards Antwerp for close to a decade now, so take from that what you will. In Limburg and Brabant (either one) the freeways aren't that bad, but outside that it is very hit and miss. Some regions/municipalities have fixed their shit (around Genk things aren't that bad), but most haven't and you're still thrown onto roads from the 50s
Education is mighty fine albeit very different from NL. I don't agree with Morphineus that it's better though, really depends on WHAT you're talking about exactly.
Not universities at least. Those are a very different beast. Usually one should base on the institute rather than the whole education system of a country with those.
I just experience with the basic education (elementary and high school) that for the common levels of that system the knowledge tend to be of a greater value in Belgium than The Netherlands. It's not even a competition in language education.
If we look at the top tier of each system (ASO for BE and VWO for NL) than I'd say they are very close to each other.
Well, my gf is from Holland and I am from Belgium. Let me compare.
Belgium taxes are quite a lot higher than NL. Anyone claiming anything else is a lier. I have the same before tax salary as my brother in law, he has >300 more after taxes.
Social security is more expensive in holland. University is a bit more expensive in holland, however, as a good student you get grants, in belgium, you don't. Tuition is 1500 in NL, 600 in BE. In NL you get 250/month grant, in belgium you still get child support money (¬100 month). So in the end it's basically the same.
High school is better in belgium, better math skills in high schools, more options and broader education. In NL, if you fuck up in high school, you are banned from university all together, if you specialise at 14, you cant do medicine at uni. Too early specialisation. University, dunno. Overal it's the same i guess, the technical unis (e.g. Delft, Utrecht) is better for the water engineering or space/flight stuff. Belgium kicks European ass in (plant) biotech!
Healt care is the same i guess. hospital is a hospital. Roads are better in NL, tax money is better spent. We waste a lot on stupid NL/French crappy stuff.
NL has fucked up housing market. Houses are easily 400k. But there's an unlimited tax deduction for interest, but really unlimited. In BE it's 200/month/person. They inflated their houses with tax deductions.
Renting stuff, dunno, I think it's quite cheap compared to NL or France or UK. But then again, what's cheap?
Belgium taxes are quite a lot higher than NL. Anyone claiming anything else is a lier. I have the same before tax salary as my brother in law, he has >300 more after taxes.
Isn't that because you are in one of the higher teirs? Last years I had a median income with the job I had and looked to me I was paying less taxes than my sister/friends in the Netherlands.
When I was working at the higher payed jobs I did feel like I was taxed higher tho.
Isn't that because you are in one of the higher teirs? Last years I had a median income with the job I had and looked to me I was paying less taxes than my sister/friends in the Netherlands.
When I was working at the higher payed jobs I did feel like I was taxed higher tho
Well yeah, i am in the highest bracket, but everything above 19000 per year is taxed at 13% social taxes + 45%. Can hardly call 19000/year a high income. The 50% kicks in at 34000 per year, which again is not absurdly high. In Netherlands the 52% kicks in >50000. Holland has 6% social taxes. I am quite sure the difference, even for >50k incomes is approx 10% in disposible income. NL will have 60% available, in BE approx 50%
but that said, both are nice places to live, i would say do a few day trip in each country and live where ever you feel at home.
That
There's not much difference between the two countries and depending on where you decide to live, working/studying abroad is easily doable.
spankie wrote:
Holland has 6% social taxes.
So does the rest of the country
That said, you're looking only at income taxes. There are a lot of other taxes which are much lower in Belgium. Like I said, diesel is still a viable option due to the lower taxes on that (both the fuel and the cars themselves; driving diesel basically doubles your road tax for most cars). In fact, everything about driving cars is cheaper in Belgium; we pay "BPM" on cars here. In practice, even a smaller car like a VW Golf costs a good 4-5k more here than it does in Belgium or Germany for example. For you that might not matter, but for some people it does. It really depends per person which of the two countries works out "better", but all in all there's really not that much difference.
French part doing bad is a myth from the 1990s that people still like to tell, they are doing alot better now.
They may be doing better, but still:
Quote:
The economy of Belgium is varied and cannot be understood without taking the regional differences into account. Indeed, Flemish and Walloon economies differ in many respects (consider for instance Eurostats and OECD statistics), and cities like Brussels, Antwerp, Liège, Bruges, Charleroi or Ghent also exhibit significant differences. In general, productivity in Flanders is roughly 20% higher (per inhabitant) than in Wallonia. Brussels' GDP per capita is much higher than either region, although this is in many ways artificial, as many of those that work in the Brussels-Capital Region live in Flanders or Wallonia. Their output is counted in Brussels and not where they live, artificially raising the per capita GDP of Brussels and slightly lowering that of Flanders and Wallonia.
Unemployment has remained consistently more than twice as high in Wallonia than in Flanders, and even more in Brussels, during most of the last 20 years (2009, Flanders: 5.0% ; Wallonia: 11.2% and Brussels: 15.9%).[12]
(wikipedia)
It's certainly not a myth.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
I only visited for a few days, but I was under the impression that people in Brussels were much nicer than those in Amsterdam, altough they were all very polite. Things (especially food) seemed to be a bit more expensive in Amsterdam, and I also had the impression that Brussels has better food in general (they certainly have better beer too!).
I also noticed the roads in Belgium are indeed worse (saw a few potholes even inside Brussels, and had a less than ideal bus ride across the country), but they are still very good in my (brazilian) standards.
No I walked around a lot, not just in the central area... Been to Rotterdam as well, and the nicest people there were immigrants (I even met a very nice finn!). I just had the feeling that the belgians are more friendly.
Thanks for the input guys, a lot to think about. The difference seems to be minimaal though, not exactly what I expected. Good points about car expenses being relatively absurd in NL, but luckily I rarely drive and I don't care what car I drive in when I do it.
Paintface wrote:
but that said, both are nice places to live, i would say do a few day trip in each country and live where ever you feel at home.
I feel at home everywhere as long as I speak the language, so that's not a problem.
@spankie: thanks for the economic insight. I can't believe how many people here think income taxes are much lower in Belgium ("we pay the highest taxes in the world goddammii!?!?!").
Thanks for the input guys, a lot to think about. The difference seems to be minimaal though, not exactly what I expected. Good points about car expenses being relatively absurd in NL, but luckily I rarely drive and I don't care what car I drive in when I do it.
Paintface wrote:
but that said, both are nice places to live, i would say do a few day trip in each country and live where ever you feel at home.
I feel at home everywhere as long as I speak the language, so that's not a problem.
@spankie: thanks for the economic insight. I can't believe how many people here think income taxes are much lower in Belgium ("we pay the highest taxes in the world goddammii!?!?!").
The problem is people generalize tax wise, some taxes are higher in the Netherlands, others are higher in Belgium. It completely depends on what you do, how much you earn, how you live etc.
Well, yeah, a car cost 2-5k more in NL and VAT is 22% instead of 21%. Fuel is more expensive. But a car runs 10 year, and fuel, maybe 50-100 per month if you drive normal. So that per month maybe 50 euro more 'tax', max. And it's avoidable, like take a bus or a train, at least it is avoidable.
That's only minor compared to the 300 more taxes i pay more every month, and i cannot avoid.
Anyway, people always complain. I would not choose NL over BE based on taxes or financial reasons, the difference is small indeed.
And regarding the discussion dutch-french speaking in Belgium, it is not a myth. Just ignore Brussels, brussels is located in flanders, so it should be considered flanders ^^. Wallonia has higher unemployment, more fraud, less unemployment activation, less taxing income, less fines being collected, less social fraud detection, less people being kicked of social benefits they fraudulenty collect etc. etc. I am not making it up, the numbers are what they are.
Of course, you should not regard it as a region where people live in caves and fight for food, but there is a big social/economic difference. Some regions look like 'Romania', Lieges and Charleroi, it's difficult to find nice places in those cities or in the close vicinity. Roads look like shit, half of the building are semi collapsed or almost collapsed, loaaaads of unemployment, loaaads of illegal people, loaaaads of lower social class stuff (drugs abuse etc) caused by the bad economic outlook of the region.
Of course, it's not entirely their fault, they are farther from the harbors, the airports, the sea. They have hills, forests, nature, generally speak english badly. So it is difficult to build a decent high tech/modern economy. But on the other hand, the highly educated people are very good, it's just that their 'bag' of bad people is larger than in flanders.
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