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Ispep
VIP Member
Posts: 4117
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 Posted: Wed, 21st Sep 2005 23:23 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Dude...how could anyone make the homosexual angle interesting in alexander...well, i guess if the viewer was queer then they'd be able to say if the angle was interesting or not.. |
I figured you might be homophobic in some form or another from your posts. The homosexual angle can be interesting because of the relationship between the two characters. You don't need to be gay in order to appreciate that, although I suppose you have to have an open mind as far as accepting it goes. If it disgusts you; then naturally you are going to find it repulsive.
The point I was trying to make was that the relationship between the two characters was forced, weak and ultimately pointless. If they had actually put some effort into it and fleshed it out then it might have actually made for some good cinema.
| Quote: | | As for Joan of Arc, yeah man, the actors did a piss poor job in that movie. The story is far more interesting than that movie - i'd rather read about Joan of Arc then watch the movie. |
Good man.
| Quote: | How is Rome expolitive? The go to great lengths to show realism. If ur talking about the sex/nudity...well, first off there was a lot of nudity in those days (like ppl showering in public baths, or things of the sort). Secondly, the sex scenes arent explicit and show the same amount of nudity the Sun newspaper (euro one, on NA one) shows, tits.
If ur talking about the gore...well, thats realism. If im watching a movie that is supposed to portray war and the guys gettin shot, stabbed, whatever, aren't bleeding or something like that, why bother watching it? It takes away from the realism and from that point on, u dont know if the creator omitted anything else that he/she thought was wrong or disgusting, but could have been important... |
No, it is explotitive in my opinion.
To being with, I'm not against nudity, swearing or violence, nor am I for censorship. I just don't appreciate it when filmmakers use these kind of circumstances to their own ends.
Yes, these things occured in the past, but the way they are presented on our television screens robs it of that 'innocence'.
When they show people having sex casually, or blood pouring out of the mans neck, or whatever - it's not because they want to do history justice - it's because they want to stick it on the television and be raunchy.
Of course, they can always play the history card to get out of jail free - but it doesn't wash for me in the same way saying that Saddamn is a bad man doesn't wash for me. There is an aulterior motive to the way it's all presented.
Not really good at explaining it - but I'm sure you understand what I'm trying to say?
Violence for example can be done well like in Band of Brothers/Saving Private Ryan. In there it is shocking but it's not Starship Troopers style gore, it's more the horrors of war for the most part in how it's presented, rather than what is shown.
| Quote: | | I dunno, I like my tv viewing to be 'real' if that makes any sense at all. |
Me too, which is why I don't like being force-fed. I like subtlety, I like things to develop naturally. I don't want to be told explicitly how I should feel for a character, is he bad, is he good, does he have a mean streak... whatever... well, I don't get this from a lot of shows, including Rome. It's a shame. |
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Ispep
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| Posted: Wed, 21st Sep 2005 23:25 Post subject: |
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But I should say ROME has gotten better and better, it's a good show.
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SycoShaman
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Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed, 21st Sep 2005 23:43 Post subject: |
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Ah ok, I see what ur saying about the blood and guts...I agree with ya still.
And no man, Im not homophobic...and fine, they wanna show say one scene where they depict Alexander as being gay, fine, thats part of the story...but there was way to much 'love' or whatever u wanna call it between Colin Farrel and Jared leto and between colin farrel and that indian lady boy or whatever the fuck he was....
Watching some guy eye up another guy isnt something that interest's me.....
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SycoShaman
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Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun, 25th Sep 2005 22:37 Post subject: |
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I missed Empire 
yeah, I know all that stuff about the greeks and italians...lol try telling that to a greek or an italian tho... 
they're so proud of their history, which they should be...but they omit the part where they were bumfucking each other...
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SycoShaman
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun, 25th Sep 2005 22:44 Post subject: |
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New Episode of Rome tonite guys
Here's the preview (description) thats on my dvr cable box
| Quote: | | Caesar weighs Antony's recommendation to chase down Pompey's army; a series of setback force Varenus to reconsider his life as a business man |
Mind u, the descriptions usually provided by my digital cable provider suck...
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SycoShaman
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon, 3rd Oct 2005 23:58 Post subject: |
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| SirSmokesAlot wrote: | | Wow episode 6 was amazing..seems episode 7 will be the one where the 13th leaves rome to help ceasar |
Yeah Man
Those Roman guys have it HOOKED UP!
marc Antony fucks that broad then slaps her around, that kid gets to fuck a selection of hot, young chicks - and his mother pays for it
Not to mention that soldier guy's wife...cooks him a seriously nice meal, then washes him and then fucks him/!!! goddamnit, I need a woman like that...cooks me dinner, washes me and then fucks me? goddamn Im jealous |
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Tue, 4th Oct 2005 01:18 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No, it is explotitive in my opinion. |
Fair enough.
| Quote: | | I just don't appreciate it when filmmakers use these kind of circumstances to their own ends. |
What do you know of the filmmakers intentions?
| Quote: | | Yes, these things occured in the past, but the way they are presented on our television screens robs it of that 'innocence'. |
Innocence? You think ancient Rome was innocent? I don't get you here.
| Quote: | | When they show people having sex casually, or blood pouring out of the mans neck, or whatever - it's not because they want to do history justice - it's because they want to stick it on the television and be raunchy. |
They do? Again, I doubt you know the intentions of the filmmakers, but lets say they do it for the reasons you specify, it's still authentic, and gives you a very close look upon the mortality of those days. Today we take our lives pretty much for granted, whereas in those times death was ever present, and ever occuring.
I think what you describe as "raunchy" is just the flair I've lacked in the world of cinema before - and it's actually very descriptive as to what our days historians know of the Roman empire, and they know so, because it's one of the few great nations that we know a lot of (as opposed to Carthage for instance).
The ideal back then was a "democracy" where everything wasn't locked behind doors, thus the public baths, the public whore houses, et cetera - whereas eg. Hollywood has given us an image of Rome as some ideal "clean" "civilised" society. Human kind has never been "civilised", really. We try to pretend we are, but what occurs behind these silly taboo's is an image we've spent the past ages to pretend doesn't exist.
Romans didn't really deny their perversities - and I think this series portrays this in a "good" fashion.
[uote]
Of course, they can always play the history card to get out of jail free - but it doesn't wash for me in the same way saying that Saddamn is a bad man doesn't wash for me. There is an aulterior motive to the way it's all presented.[/quote]
What Saddam has to do with this series about Rome is besides the point. There are no "cards", there however is a series, that you either like or dislike, for what ever reasons. Some will appreciate the bluntness of this series due to the sense that it is, for it IS, realistic. Whereas some will appreciate it for it's true depiction of the extreme manipulation and intriguery that went on in the upper classes of the roman society. Why some need to apply morality to this, to me, is questionable.
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Not really good at explaining it - but I'm sure you understand what I'm trying to say?
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I see that it is your opinion. But you base it, at best, on speculation.
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Violence for example can be done well like in Band of Brothers/Saving Private Ryan. In there it is shocking but it's not Starship Troopers style gore, it's more the horrors of war for the most part in how it's presented, rather than what is shown.
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Interesting that you mention two of the series that include so much pecoral forced morality, you have to gouge your eyes to really be able to see it. Band of brothers and Saving Private Ryan definitely have their (very) strong sides, but - seeing as you're open to alterior speculative motives - there's enough self-back-patting in those two cinematic manifestations to serve a generation of nationalism.
As for war-movies, I think Taegukgi (the Korean movie) better illustrates the point. And doesn't try to apply the tired "Good vs. Evil" theme in the same sense.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Ispep
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| Posted: Tue, 4th Oct 2005 03:06 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What do you know of the filmmakers intentions? |
Do you know differently? Personally I'm basing my speculations on previous HBO exploits and the way the industry is mostly run. You're free to think differently, but the 'rawness' and the 'historical accuracy' will no doubt be the shows selling point as is even evidenced in this thread.
| Quote: | | Innocence? You think ancient Rome was innocent? I don't get you here. |
Innocent by their standards. It's life as they knew it. Displaying it on our screens gives it a voyeruestic edge - especially when it's done so narrowly.
| Quote: | They do? Again, I doubt you know the intentions of the filmmakers, but lets say they do it for the reasons you specify, it's still authentic, and gives you a very close look upon the mortality of those days. Today we take our lives pretty much for granted, whereas in those times death was ever present, and ever occuring.
I think what you describe as "raunchy" is just the flair I've lacked in the world of cinema before - and it's actually very descriptive as to what our days historians know of the Roman empire, and they know so, because it's one of the few great nations that we know a lot of (as opposed to Carthage for instance).
The ideal back then was a "democracy" where everything wasn't locked behind doors, thus the public baths, the public whore houses, et cetera - whereas eg. Hollywood has given us an image of Rome as some ideal "clean" "civilised" society. Human kind has never been "civilised", really. We try to pretend we are, but what occurs behind these silly taboo's is an image we've spent the past ages to pretend doesn't exist.
Romans didn't really deny their perversities - and I think this series portrays this in a "good" fashion. |
Yes, yes, I know that. My problem is not the material they are trying to represent, but how it is represented. Though I admit I am finding it difficult to substantiate this into a tangible arguement someone can follow - it's a feeling I get watching the show.
| Quote: | | What Saddam has to do with this series about Rome is besides the point. |
Saddam has nothing to do with Rome. My point, which is relevant to the next statement I was about to make, is that yes Saddam is a tyrant, a bad man, but it is no justification (in my opinion at least) for the nefarious actions thereafter - all under the banner of 'freeing Iraq from Saddam'. I think it's relevant to the point I was making actually.
| Quote: | | There are no "cards", there however is a series, that you either like or dislike, for what ever reasons. Some will appreciate the bluntness of this series due to the sense that it is, for it IS, realistic. Whereas some will appreciate it for it's true depiction of the extreme manipulation and intriguery that went on in the upper classes of the roman society. Why some need to apply morality to this, to me, is questionable. |
I have nothing against the bluntness. I merely question the motives behind it and wish that it was decipitated more broadly and less overtly so. If you think that the behavior of these characters is suggestive of the people of Rome back then I'd say you are being very naive. I am going to say that it is 'camp' and I am going to hope that you understand in what manner I mean.
| Quote: | | Interesting that you mention two of the series that include so much pecoral forced morality, you have to gouge your eyes to really be able to see it. Band of brothers and Saving Private Ryan definitely have their (very) strong sides, but - seeing as you're open to alterior speculative motives - there's enough self-back-patting in those two cinematic manifestations to serve a generation of nationalism. |
I completely agree with everything you just said. The difficulty comes in that you've missed the point I was originally making and gone off on a completely different tangent. I was speaking about the graphic gore in the series as an allegory for everything else. You can be reserved but realistic. |
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Tue, 4th Oct 2005 04:57 Post subject: |
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| Ispep wrote: | | Quote: | | What do you know of the filmmakers intentions? |
Do you know differently? Personally I'm basing my speculations on previous HBO exploits and the way the industry is mostly run. You're free to think differently, but the 'rawness' and the 'historical accuracy' will no doubt be the shows selling point as is even evidenced in this thread.
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Band of Brothers was also an "HBO exploit", and I'm pretty sure (seeing as you previously found that series to be in good taste) you would probably feel the way I do if someone presented an argument against BoB under the same conditions which you have presented here.
Yes, the movie industry is run on appealing to audiences, that is how the consumer market works, and business in a capitalist world in general.
However, I think that most people who watch this show, really get offended by it's promptness. Swedish TV4 refused to purchase this series in it's current state, based on it's "vulgar image". I found this sort of humorous, as eg. news-channels show images from war that first of all are very much real, how historical fiction gets censored - and reality doesn't sends, at least to me, a double contradictory message.
Yes, shows that actually get to the point of production need a selling point, but to argue that this series, which I find absolutely brilliant, partly from the fact that it doesn't go through any great length to censor what's going on - it's something new, fresh - and beyond tired "oh well, perhaps we shouldn't".
What else is new in this series is that there's no forced morality... at least I do not think there's any obvious "villain" in this series, nor is there any hero. You could say that our main character and his friend are "the heroes", but they are as "decadent" as anyone else is, and there is no moral judgment falling upon the characters shoulders from the director's point of view. Something I find -very- unusual in the american movie industry.
Another thing I like, is how they're not shown as "pagans", "heretics", or "strange people" in their worship of "any other God than the Christian". Or other rhetorics of eg. such directors as Steven Spielberg, who very much loves to apply his extremely ethnocentric perspective on everything he produces.
| Quote: | | Innocent by their standards. It's life as they knew it. Displaying it on our screens gives it a voyeruestic edge - especially when it's done so narrowly. |
I appreciate your opinion, but disagree - since I think there is a larger view of this series than just focusing on what's part of the entirety.
| Quote: | | Yes, yes, I know that. My problem is not the material they are trying to represent, but how it is represented. Though I admit I am finding it difficult to substantiate this into a tangible arguement someone can follow - it's a feeling I get watching the show. |
*nods*, understood... _my_ feeling is contradictory to yours however 
| Quote: | | Saddam has nothing to do with Rome. My point, which is relevant to the next statement I was about to make, is that yes Saddam is a tyrant, a bad man, but it is no justification (in my opinion at least) for the nefarious actions thereafter - all under the banner of 'freeing Iraq from Saddam'. I think it's relevant to the point I was making actually. |
Ok.
| Quote: | | I have nothing against the bluntness. I merely question the motives behind it and wish that it was decipitated more broadly and less overtly so. If you think that the behavior of these characters is suggestive of the people of Rome back then I'd say you are being very naive. I am going to say that it is 'camp' and I am going to hope that you understand in what manner I mean. |
Do you think it is NOT suggestive as how people (particularly in the upper class) behaved in Rome back then (look up Caligula for instance), then I would say you are being the one who is being naive.
You may believe what you will, I personally think you're being oversensitive to it, and miss the big picture.
| Quote: | | I completely agree with everything you just said. The difficulty comes in that you've missed the point I was originally making and gone off on a completely different tangent. I was speaking about the graphic gore in the series as an allegory for everything else. You can be reserved but realistic. |
I got your point, which is more of an opinion really (and you know what they say about opinions and people's behinds), you are of course entitled to it. But don't expect everyone else to buy into this "oh, it's all to appeal to a larger audience... filthy and overgraphic".
While some (obviously) think it's overly graphic, and think it would be better if it was "reserved", some appreciate the fact that there are director's who do not pay attention to grown up people who are offended by such things as nudity, mortality, or morality in terms of sexuality (as Christian dogma has managed to instill in many western man's eyes).
I don't personally have a problem with explicity; should this series get a lot of money directly as from an audience seeing it only for eg. the nudity, if people see it as "porn" or "splatter", I very much believe there are better mediums (such as their genre counterparts) - I think it adds to the flavour. If you do not, then you are quite free to wait until the European censored version is released.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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SycoShaman
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue, 4th Oct 2005 07:56 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes, shows that actually get to the point of production need a selling point, but to argue that this series, which I find absolutely brilliant, partly from the fact that it doesn't go through any great length to censor what's going on - it's something new, fresh - and beyond tired "oh well, perhaps we shouldn't". |
| Quote: | | Another thing I like, is how they're not shown as "pagans", "heretics", or "strange people" in their worship of "any other God than the Christian". Or other rhetorics of eg. such directors as Steven Spielberg, who very much loves to apply his extremely ethnocentric perspective on everything he produces. |
Nicely said man. Thats one of the my reason's for liking this show, the pagan aspect and its not filled with christian bs.
Also, ur very right when u say this is something fresh...I dunno, every episode is gripping and interesting - for so many reasons and on many levels. I think its well done and in perfect taste. |
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SycoShaman
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed, 12th Oct 2005 08:15 Post subject: |
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Anyone see Sunday's episode? Man, they have some fucked up, unexpected plot twist's in this series....that little Julei (spelling?) girl who fucks that old woman, Attia i think her name is? I dunno, the only 4 ppl who's names I can remember are Caser, Pompey, Antony, Verinus, Titus Polus...i guess thats 5 then
I was disappointed that they didnt have a big battle scene when Ceaser went to make his last stand, so to speak, against pompey...but still, by far one of the best episodes thus far...
They better be getting to some good war scene's pretty soon...thats what ive been waiting for and thats what they advertised on TMN before it debuted - realistic, graphic, unparalelled war realism and shit...so far, i havent seen to many battles
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Wed, 12th Oct 2005 19:13 Post subject: |
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War scenes cost big bucks... most of Gladiator's money was blown on the first war scene of the movie. In a series, you usually cannot shell out that amount of money on a scene - so they chose a "descriptive" version of the battle instead. I admit I was disappointed, but I understand the decision.
Julii is the spelling.
Pompei is pronounced "Pompey", and Julii is pronounced "Juli-ai"
Caesar is also the sp. for him.
I felt sort of sad for Pompei, but I think Caesar is the man with the better initiative, and I really appreciated his reasons for sparing Verinus and Polus.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Ispep
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| Posted: Wed, 12th Oct 2005 19:27 Post subject: |
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The way the battle was shown and the transitional back into normal time was pretty dire to be honest, it just looks so out of place in the series. The 'lesbianism' was so, so predictable as well that I was shouting "just get it over with". The main characters are also a lucky pair it must be said - rather contrived lucky pair indeed.
Still, it's a great show that has gotten better and better. I hope that wasn't the last episode though?
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SycoShaman
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu, 13th Oct 2005 06:06 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | War scenes cost big bucks... most of Gladiator's money was blown on the first war scene of the movie. In a series, you usually cannot shell out that amount of money on a scene - so they chose a "descriptive" version of the battle instead. I admit I was disappointed, but I understand the decision.
Julii is the spelling.
Pompei is pronounced "Pompey", and Julii is pronounced "Juli-ai"
Caesar is also the sp. for him.
I felt sort of sad for Pompei, but I think Caesar is the man with the better initiative, and I really appreciated his reasons for sparing Verinus and Polus. |
I know how to pronounce the names, just not write em  I figured it was Julii but it just looked wrong
Yeah, Caesar's reasoning when it came to lettin Verinus and Polus go was true...they are pretty lucky guys...but still, I would have turned pompei in - he's dead anyway |
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Fri, 14th Oct 2005 10:04 Post subject: |
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| Ispep wrote: | | I hope that wasn't the last episode though? |
Me too, but I think it was.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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SycoShaman
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| Posted: Fri, 14th Oct 2005 11:11 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | Ispep wrote: | | I hope that wasn't the last episode though? |
Me too, but I think it was. |
no...lemme check...nope, not the last episode
Preview of next episode
| Quote: | | Caesar arrives in Alexandria to meet the king; Vorenus and Pullo liberate Cleopatra; Caesar forges a union with Egpyt |
I got that from my interactive tv guide thing a ma jig... |
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Ispep
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| Posted: Mon, 17th Oct 2005 20:04 Post subject: |
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Yup, just seen the episode. Not the best, and it seems to like to fixate on muddling boring moments in the present and speed past interesting things from the future - whilst yet again avoiding showing us any bloodshed in battle.
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| Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005 11:29 Post subject: |
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The last episode felt like a filler but was still very watchable. Not sure about the Egyptian cast but hey, the good outweighed the bad.
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slak
Posts: 248
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue, 18th Oct 2005 14:00 Post subject: |
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The first season will be 12 episodes. The series is scheduled for a second season, but that won't be until late 2006 or 2007.
"Why not just shut up and have people only think you are a moron instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt." -Mark Twain
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| Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005 14:18 Post subject: |
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| Ispep wrote: | | Yup, just seen the episode. Not the best, and it seems to like to fixate on muddling boring moments in the present and speed past interesting things from the future - whilst yet again avoiding showing us any bloodshed in battle. |
You think so? I thought it was one of the best so far.
Caesar telling that little Greek, nay, Egyptian punk to sit the fuck down and the Consul of Rome thing were both awesome scenes, I thought. I also love Pullo and Vorenus' wacky adventures (however farfetched they may be in that they always have a knack for meeting historical people). I'm not really sure where the lesbian story arc is going, but that's about it as far as the negatives are concerned.
I like this show precisely because they opt to show the non-epic story and leave out the battles. Fighting is cool but ultimately dull. We've seen huge battles in countless movies before, don't you agree? Why not simple put Gladiator or Braveheart on if you want to see people fighting and can forgive little character development and a lack of historical detail/accuracy?
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slak
Posts: 248
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| Posted: Wed, 19th Oct 2005 21:20 Post subject: |
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I was alittle disapointed with Cleopatra, she's suposed to be really beautiful, not butt ugly.
"Why not just shut up and have people only think you are a moron instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt." -Mark Twain
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Ispep
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Oct 2005 00:48 Post subject: |
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They have to get women who don't mind having sex and bearing all in front of the camera so it probably narrows the list of suitable actresses down considerably. She looked fine to me.
| Quote: | | I like this show precisely because they opt to show the non-epic story and leave out the battles. Fighting is cool but ultimately dull. We've seen huge battles in countless movies before, don't you agree? Why not simple put Gladiator or Braveheart on if you want to see people fighting and can forgive little character development and a lack of historical detail/accuracy? |
Yes, I like the show because it isn't centered around battles as well. The politics and character development is what I'm interested in, not sex scenes devoid of any meaning or involvement dragging on for god knows how long.
It'd also be nice to get a battle sequence. This is Caeser we are talking about, and we've flown past some great battles.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Oct 2005 01:47 Post subject: |
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You're still missing the issue, battles cost too much to produce. Rome is no 10 ep. Miniserie with Speilberg & Hanks to fund (and insert fat items of nauseous morality in) it.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Ispep
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Oct 2005 01:57 Post subject: |
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I'm not missing the issue, I understand that completely. I'm simply saying it would be nice to get A battle sequence.
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Oct 2005 03:16 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | You're still missing the issue, battles cost too much to produce. Rome is no 10 ep. Miniserie with Speilberg & Hanks to fund (and insert fat items of nauseous morality in) it. |
Rome cost about $100 million and that's no small amount of money if you ask me (even if you divide it by 12). The producers wisely chose to spend the money on things like rich and detailed sets instead of battles.
I'm not sure where in Band of Brothers you saw nauseous morality. I certainly didn't see anything resembling the thick "America, Hell Yeah!" attitude of Saving Private Ryan.
| Ispep wrote: | | I'm not missing the issue, I understand that completely. I'm simply saying it would be nice to get A battle sequence. |
There was one in the pilot although it wasn't epic like in Gladiator. There are still a few battles left for Caesar to fight. We probably won't be completely cheated of action.
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SycoShaman
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Oct 2005 07:24 Post subject: |
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This sucks, Rome isnt on this Sunday!!!! WTF??!!!!
Let me check again and see whats on instead, in the 9pm time slot...
"Maria Full of Grace"....wtf?!!! Im so pissed off 
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slak
Posts: 248
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu, 20th Oct 2005 09:50 Post subject: |
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What? ffs that's the only thing i had to look forward to this weekend.
"Why not just shut up and have people only think you are a moron instead of opening your mouth and removing all doubt." -Mark Twain
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri, 21st Oct 2005 19:04 Post subject: |
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Fuck, i checked again and the same Maria shit is on...sometimes the ppl who update the Interactive tv guide thing get shit wrong...but i truly think that its not on this weekend...they still have 3 more or 4 more episodes to show...I was watching "The Making of Rome" and we havent see all the eps yet...like there's one episode where Polus fights in a gladiator arena type thing and there's another episode where they have a huge war scene....i wonder why they arent airing the show this week...?
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