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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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 Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 15:22 Post subject: The future of our economy |
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I had an idea about how we COULD fix the economics in the Netherlands (donno if this would be good for other countries, just looking at mine now).
It goes as follow:
We get rid of the big companies that rule one market now.
Invest into smaller companies so they can build up and take a strong place in the markets.
Limit those smaller companies so they cannot grow into a too big of a company.
Eventually, you got a place where before there was 1 company, but now you have for example, 10 of them and they all need to compete with eachother.
Now the problem is going to be price agreements with those, so there needs to be a better supervision that checks if those companies are indeed not making such agreements with eachother.
Eventually, this will also mean that for consumers, the prices will drop and more workplaces (aka more jobs).
Now this idea is not something that could happen overnight, but it's atleast an idea (something that many shout but actually lack to create).
Furthermore the problem i see with the current system is this.
(the following is made with fictional numbers, none actually represent the actual numbers)
Say our total money is 100%, now 70% of that is going to the people and 30% will go to big names that own most of the worlds companies.
Now from those 70%, people will save abit in banks, so that's like 5% gone, so 65% comes back via taxes and other things.
Now those that got the 30%, will only spend about 5% of that, so that comes back again in the money in total.
Then the next year there is only 65%+5%=70% wich then becomes the 100% again and the story goes again from the beginning.
This will result in eventually (in years and years further) there will be almost no money left for the masses and only a few are having big amounts left...
Somehow i find it odd that when the economics system was developed, that they didn't think of these things (or they did and doing it intentionally)..
Now the above thing is just how i, personally, experience it from what i hear and read.
Now the top idea, what do you guys think?
And what would you suggest to fix the current state of the economy?
Can it even be fixed? And what do you think will happen if we continue like this?
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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garus
VIP Member
Posts: 34200
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 15:24 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 22:02; edited 2 times in total
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 15:27 Post subject: |
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Arg that existed already? 
And here i was, thought i finally had a good idea
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 15:29 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: | | Quote: | | We get rid of the big companies that rule one market now. |
So the government just closes whole corporations and fires thousands of people?
| Quote: | | Invest into smaller companies so they can build up and take a strong place in the markets. |
Who invests?
| Quote: | | Now the problem is going to be price agreements with those, so there needs to be a better supervision that checks if those companies are indeed not making such agreements with eachother. |
This leads to corruption of government officials and even more bureaucracy.
| Quote: | | Eventually, this will also mean that for consumers, the prices will drop and more workplaces (aka more jobs). |
You cannot possible think that those thousands fired from big corporations will fit 100% into smaller ones.
That's not a solution, that's socialism |
Well yeah, the system can only work if people are actually going to be fair (altho that's going to be hard...)
For the amount of people fired, new jobs will come in place. Like i said, where before was maybe 1 location of a bigger company, holding around 50 employees, 10 smaller with 5 employees will make up for that.
Ofc the numbers aren't exactly correct, but it was about the idea itself 
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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garus
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 15:31 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 22:02; edited 1 time in total
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doobzilla
Posts: 1099
Location: Team America's Mount Rushmore Base. Stolen from Indians.
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 15:38 Post subject: |
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I know absolutely nothing about your country, beyond where it is geographically located. Saying that, I ask a few questions about your plan, non-sarcastically:
Just how will your government get rid of the big companies that rule one market now?
How will you limit the new company's growth, assuming that new companies did, indeed, sprout?
How are lower prices (equaling lower profits) good for everyone? I only ask this because, when you had one company that had 100 employees, you won't necessarily have 10 companies each with 10 employees take their place, especially when you limit their potential growth through legislation.
I do agree with your plan to limit price-fixing agreements between companies. But, I do not necessarily think that price-fixing is bad, I just don't believe that it's sustainable in the long term. You'll always have one bloke that decides to charge 0.002% less and he'll corner the market, given enough time.
If the proper balance were ascertained, your plan might work, for a time. Of course, a lot of international businesses won't come to your country since there is so little room for growth now, due to your government's regulatory capacity (I'm speaking in generalizations here, not directly at your country).
Of course, I'm an American and I know little about The Netherlands current state-of-affairs, business-wise, that is...
Hobo Zombie: TRAAAAAAAIIIINNNNNNSSSSSS
Woman Zombie: COMPLAAAAAAAIIIIIIINNNNNSSSSS
Englishmen Zombie: REFRAAAAAAAAAIIIIIINNNNNSSSSS
Thanks for the idea Lutz!
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 15:39 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: | | I am in no way educated enough in economics to give grounded in reality arguments. But any action that gives the government more control is a no no for me. Those corporations emerged because they were operated by clever people. Giving that control to politicians would have disastrous consequences. |
Well that might be, but the way things are going now is not good either..
These private people are now holding big amounts of money and are not spending it properly, so it gets back into the economic "flow", and thus that money will be lost till they are actually going to spend it...
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 15:41 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: | | I am in no way educated enough in economics to give grounded in reality arguments. But any action that gives the government more control is a no no for me. Those corporations emerged because they were operated by clever people. Giving that control to politicians would have disastrous consequences. |
And leaving it in their hands averts the current disastrous consequences of them having it how?
I'm all for balanced capitalism, but when it turns into a "I get wealthy at the expense of vastly disproportional amounts of others others getting poorer" doesn't work.
Capitalism in an environmental with no control turns into dictatorships if they could. (well dicatorships not so much in the fact they'control the people, but they control the money..which the people need)
Unlimited power to 'grow' under the guise of capitalism, when its nothing more than a financial version of grabbing all the power you can.
You cant say there is one big business thats in that group, that wouldn't take MORE if they could find ways to. Unlock the power for them to do that as they wish...is not a 'good' thing.
Capitalism is just a fancy word for exploitation when its taken to extremes. I mean can you name any time in history where 'free market capitalism' didn't cause more problems than its 'freedom to be what you wish' fixed over a long period of time?
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Tue, 29th Jan 2013 15:45; edited 2 times in total
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 15:44 Post subject: |
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| doobzilla wrote: | I know absolutely nothing about your country, beyond where it is geographically located. Saying that, I ask a few questions about your plan, non-sarcastically:
Just how will your government get rid of the big companies that rule one market now?
How will you limit the new company's growth, assuming that new companies did, indeed, sprout?
How are lower prices (equaling lower profits) good for everyone? I only ask this because, when you had one company that had 100 employees, you won't necessarily have 10 companies each with 10 employees take their place, especially when you limit their potential growth through legislation.
I do agree with your plan to limit price-fixing agreements between companies. But, I do not necessarily think that price-fixing is bad, I just don't believe that it's sustainable in the long term. You'll always have one bloke that decides to charge 0.002% less and he'll corner the market, given enough time.
If the proper balance were ascertained, your plan might work, for a time. Of course, a lot of international businesses won't come to your country since there is so little room for growth now, due to your government's regulatory capacity (I'm speaking in generalizations here, not directly at your country).
Of course, I'm an American and I know little about The Netherlands current state-of-affairs, business-wise, that is... |
Good points.
-They deny those companies from establishing their product in the country.
-You limit them by only having xx amount of employees per location and max of, lets say, 2 locations per province.
-Well that is assuming that more then a few are going to take their place, there has to be a certain amount that is going to take over the market that before 1 big company had. Those lower prices (and thus profit) won't matter then anymore, because if you don't have to pay as much anymore, you don't have to get big amounts of money monthly.
-Well the pricefixing has gone out of hand here with the telecom/IS providers, KPN and Vodafone are basically in charge of the whole damn thing (yeah there are some smaller ones, but most of them are daughter companies of the 2 other). It's known that they make priceagreements with eachother, and they have been fined for that already. But they are so big that they don't care anymore, and that's where the gov should act it's role and protect the consumer from such things.
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 15:55 Post subject: |
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same here sausje
Where I live you have comcast internet..or crap speeds of with DSL.
How much is my cable bill a month? $220...for 30 down/5 up.
And because of comcast, being so successful. in cornering the market we get the privileged of being raped for prices.
Sure other competition can come in due to 'free market' and all. But then when they are top dog, watch prices skyrocket.
The joys of free market, it works great until someone wins, then its their whims that you have to live with, or do without
And i hear "well its a free market, the consumers dictate who gets what"...so they are saying I MYSELF should suffer, to prove a point to a company..not the company itself? that sounds appealing to me. Let me do without, because I want to make a point to some tycoon business that will be there regardless of my protest
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 16:01 Post subject: |
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Same shit as they are pulling off now with 4G here.
The gov actually constructed the network needed for it, KPN bought it and is paying 1 billion euro a year for it.
But the shitheads are advertising that 4G can only max get 50mbit (but the actual results where going to be around 25mbit).
Right now we got HSDPA, wich is 28.8mbit...
So they are letting us get new contracts with special 4G access (wich cost fucking insanely high), but the speeds are going to be virtually the same.
I HATE it that they are milking this shit. 4G can go up to 1000mbit (when standing still or walking) and 100mbit (while in train or moving car)... So they are just taking the piss with this and slowing the process of getting better network down...
Same with Fibre here, offering 500/500 connections for 100€ per month....
Even now, i pay 67€ per month for 120mbit... (wich has been the same speed and price for the past 3 years...) You would expect that after 3 years we would get faster or cheaper internet at those speeds/price...
These kind of things is what pisses me off and make me want to change something...
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 16:14 Post subject: |
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| sausje wrote: | Same shit as they are pulling off now with 4G here.
The gov actually constructed the network needed for it, KPN bought it and is paying 1 billion euro a year for it.
But the shitheads are advertising that 4G can only max get 50mbit (but the actual results where going to be around 25mbit).
Right now we got HSDPA, wich is 28.8mbit...
So they are letting us get new contracts with special 4G access (wich cost fucking insanely high), but the speeds are going to be virtually the same.
I HATE it that they are milking this shit. 4G can go up to 1000mbit (when standing still or walking) and 100mbit (while in train or moving car)... So they are just taking the piss with this and slowing the process of getting better network down...
Same with Fibre here, offering 500/500 connections for 100€ per month....
Even now, i pay 67€ per month for 120mbit... (wich has been the same speed and price for the past 3 years...) You would expect that after 3 years we would get faster or cheaper internet at those speeds/price...
These kind of things is what pisses me off and make me want to change something... |
First world problems.
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DXWarlock
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 16:21 Post subject: |
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A problem is still a problem, no matter how you twist or turn it 
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 18:15 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: | | That's not a solution, that's socialism |
lol well he IS a socialist, so thats kinda his idea of a glorious utopia
i think at the end of the day, you just deal with what you have, because no matter what amazing idea you have, its all going to turn out the same way; badly.
the problem is people... human nature, not the fact that we have 'big companies', not even capitalism (which is just a tool, its how PEOPLE use it thats the issue)
even under his glorious socialist empire, mankind will still strive to get ahead... instead of companies 'running everything' and *evil, evil, evil* whatever, youll just have corruption at the regulatory level.
dont hate on capitalism, hate on greed. hate on mankind. the average 'poor' person on the street is just as likely to be corrupt if they had a chance to get ahead.
Last edited by chiv on Tue, 29th Jan 2013 18:19; edited 1 time in total |
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TheSaint
Dalai Lama
Posts: 6586
Location: Cook Islands
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 18:23 Post subject: |
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Sausje, what have you studied if i may ask?
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 18:24 Post subject: |
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WaldoJ
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 18:38 Post subject: |
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some say that to fix the economic struggles of any country you set up taxation so people pay to help the struggling country they live in. can't really say anything about that when you chose not to pay certain taxes.
I really do love how many people come up with ideas how to save this and how to save that when they do all they can to save their hard earned penny. 
You get rid of big companies then the prices go up. big companies = affordable prices.
small business = bigger prices.
yes it's bad to have a wallmart. but if you can afford to shop at a local supermarket where a watermelon costs you 7,99, you gonna go buy it where it's cheaper. and where is it cheaper? walmart.
big companies are good for people in this economy. they provide jobs. they provide affordable products. what's there to hate?
so... and there are more wrong reasons there. in short it won't work. corporations don't affect the economy. the economy affects corporations.
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 18:44 Post subject: |
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| TheSaint wrote: | | Sausje, what have you studied if i may ask? |
IT Professional (MCDST, MCITP, MCTS, CISCO, ITILv3)
 Spoiler: | Altho not finished them, due to other reasons |
| WaldoJ wrote: | You get rid of big companies then the prices go up. big companies = affordable prices.
small business = bigger prices.
yes it's bad to have a wallmart. but if you can afford to shop at a local supermarket where a watermelon costs you 7,99, you gonna go buy it where it's cheaper. and where is it cheaper? walmart. |
Fair enough that you might think that, but why is it in the first place that smaller companies have to attent such high prices? Bingo, the bigger companies takes their customers away because they can afford lower prices due to having more profit in other area's.
So yes, right now it looks that way, but when 10 of those smaller ones have to fight eachother for their customers, it will only go for the benifit of the customer 
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
Last edited by sausje on Tue, 29th Jan 2013 18:49; edited 1 time in total |
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 18:50 Post subject: |
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I think its mutual WaldoJ its not one direction of "the economy affects corporations"
Take walmart for example, they are the worst offender for sticking to paying minimum wage the longest to an employee compared to the other places.
Sure they make MORE jobs, but when the people working at walmart, the cheapest place to shop, can barely afford to buy things there...there is a problem.
So what happens? people fuss to raise minimum wage, it gets raised, and for a while those people can afford to live better. Walmart doesn't want the raise cutting into the higher ups pay and profit margin for its stock holders, so they bump up prices to make up for it. Now we are back at step one, of the minimum wage barely can afford to live..so they demand the minimum goes up...repeat.
Walmart making tons of the lowest pay possible, for the longest time possible as a "they are helping the people" is like me saying Throwing uncooked rice at the homeless is me helping feed the needy.."It doesn't matter its not enough for them to get by on, Not my problem because I threw a single handful of rice, probably tons of it, at a CRAPLOAD of homeless people"
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 18:55 Post subject: |
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I think a lot of jobless moneyless people would rather have low paying jobs than no job at all. Corporations are out to make big profits, but sadly this world has a huge population and the need for jobs for that huge population.
As for why big companies bring prices down, mass production, simple as that.
Last edited by Mister_s on Tue, 29th Jan 2013 18:56; edited 2 times in total
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 18:55 Post subject: |
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Not to mention walmart is also the biggest "loophole' exploiter of that "39.9 hours part time worker" excuse not to have to pay benefits to them.
Ive known tons of people that worked there, and unless you make it to management position of some sort, you are 'part time, no benefits package' employee..even if you do do full time shifts.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 19:00 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | | I think a lot of jobless moneyless people would rather have low paying jobs than no job at all. Corporations are out to make big profits, but sadly this world has a huge population and the need for jobs for that huge population. |
Yes, but with that logical chain, many homeless want a crap job, many crap job people would like a better job, and people with better jobs want a great job, and the people with a great job wants to hire TONS of homeless jobless people for a cheap as possible while making sure importance of profits trump importance of employees.
If you want to start the chain as an argument, follow the chain up to see the problem.
These companies are only after profit, the sad reality is they have to hire cheap people, not by choice, but by the nature of it. I'm pretty sure if Walmart could build $60 robots that run 24 hours a day for $4 of power to replace them..in a year they would hire no one. Only reason they use people still is its cheaper than robots. Its the 'lowest cost for a unfortunate necessity' choice.
So them hiring people isn't an issue of them doing it for the employees. Its DESPITE the fact they wouldn't if they didn't have to.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Tue, 29th Jan 2013 19:03; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 19:04 Post subject: |
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I don't understand your point. What company is not out to make profit? I have never seen one. Every company would outsource to Asia if it was possible. So how exactly would you change this phenomenon? Limit the yearly ptofit a compny can make?
Many people working at Walmart would rather have their jobs at Walmart than no job at all. Sometimes you can't choose.
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 19:05 Post subject: |
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| Ragedoctor wrote: | I was going to make a huge elaborate post about how these ideas would be terrible for our international business standing and how these ideas have actually been used before here and how they failed.
But they I realized he studies IT and is advising on how to change a economy.  |
-Make the post then, atleast then you contributed something of value today to this forum
-Atleast i had an idea, can't say that about many politics these days
-What does my study with IT have to do with not coming up with an idea for something else? Didn't knew you needed a Harvard degree in order to come up with idea's
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 19:12 Post subject: |
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Im not saying I have an answer..the only way to fix the economy is take humans totally out of it
But to say 'Many people working at Walmart would rather have their jobs at Walmart than no job at all. Sometimes you can't choose." as a "well what you gonna do, huh?" toss up of arms as if its inevitable outcome that cant be changed, is like saying
"Starving people in Africa would much rather have moldy bread, than none...but..what you going to do?".
Just because its the only available option to choose now, doesn't mean its the best possible one that can be. Only reason they CANT choose, is because any better option isn't available.
Its like the childhood game of "Would you rather suck a dirty dick, or be fucked by one"...you cant answer "nether" because they go "no no 2 choices, sucked or fucked"..
here your implying its "work for crap, or don't work"...we cant go "well isn't it possible to change for the better overall" and get "nope, work or don't work".
And I agree its probably a useless and futile attempt to change the overtipped scale, it will just be replaced eventually by another one. And I haven't the studies to give an example of one that would work. But you don't have to have the answers, to be able to have knowledge something is wrong that needs answering.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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WaldoJ
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Jan 2013 19:18 Post subject: |
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walmart may be evil, but people are getting jobs. looking at the problem as to what conditions they have to work under is also a problem. some people don't strive for better paying jobs. Sure all do technically, but not all are capable of achieving a decent paying job. and some are not capable of even keeping a decent paying job. yes the loopholes and all that bs are bad, but people can't afford to get better jobs. not when they're starting on the lowest step.
look at me. i'm pretty much unemployed. i have skills and talent to earn at least 50k a year, instead since no one is hiring in my industry at the moment i'm stuck working at a local supermarket chain. (starting tomorrow I already got the job last week) and yesterday i found out that a company wants to interview me for a job i am actually suited for. it took months to get into one door. it took months and dozens upon dozens resumes and demo reels to be sent out to get at least one possible job interview.
I'm also not in a position to be all fuck all the little stores since most of them hire people they know (friends, family). it's a lot harder to get a job at a small store than it is to get a job at a big arse chain. Believe me I tried. I'm also not in a position to be all fuck the corporations because well... i need a job to pay the bills.
Biggest problem with any economy is the unfair taxation and the mismanagement of funds. removing corporations does nothing to fix any of that. if anything removing corporations = removing jobs. so you'd have more unemployed people trying to get jobs in small local stores where their chances are pretty much nonexistent. you have more unemployed people losing access to any possible means achieving a job (internet/telephone/power/food/etc). so you have more unemployed people getting more money from the government to survive (welfare) and the government loses money. So it's a loop. Best way to fix it all is to increase and force minimum wage on every company and stop the inflation of prices. Set up a nationwide price margin for all products. Remove competitive pricing. Allow people to better themselves and their careers. No one can improve their financial situation in anyway working a minimum wage job. Unless they win the lotto. (imagine if millions of people just bought a ticket or two daily that would just give money to their local government. A price of coffee)
corporations can afford to lose a 0 or two. but they don't want to. and they'll chose not to. so it's not the corporations fault. it's how it's all managed or rather mismanaged.
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
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TheSaint
Dalai Lama
Posts: 6586
Location: Cook Islands
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