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| Total Votes : 41 |
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24645
Location: Your Mom
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 Posted: Tue, 22nd Jan 2013 10:04 Post subject: |
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The reason those German brands are so expensive (besides premium brand value) is that they have higher quality and safety ratings than most other cars.
Btw, Ford sure messed up with the presentation of the 5th (I think) generation of Mondeos in Europe. Something went wrong and it's now going to be on sale in ~2 years. Meanwhile the value of the current gen Mondeo just dropped by at least 20-30% since many will think "Gee, they announced and presented the next Mondeo. If I buy the current Mondeo now I'll regret it since I know the next one will be better."
So if anybody European is interested in getting cheap new Mondeos, just wait for this to spread throughout the sales world since sales of current Mondeos will drop rapidly which will obviously force Ford to drop the prices rather harshly to get them sold. Meanwhile Ford will lose so much money because of this that they'll probably have to close a couple more factories, fire more people etc...
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Tue, 22nd Jan 2013 10:12 Post subject: |
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| Mchart wrote: | | No, a Ford isn't a 'premium brand' but brand image means nothing. You should know better then this. You buy what the best value is in the particular market segment. I'd say after the discount that Mercedes is actually not that bad knowing the prices of other cars. If he weren't getting the discount though it would be a rip-off. |
The big problem is that anything below the ST is just shit for the money really. That's why they don't do as well here, Ford haven't quite grasped the European market yet, like many American companies haven't. They come with engines that like their fuel the American way (cheap and lots of it), don't match some of the European brands in quality yet still expect to charge as much or even more than them.
I've driven their 125 BHP 1.6 "sport" whatever piece of crap, in a goddamn Fiesta as well (which is lighter than the Focus obviously). I've also driven my neighbour's new Focus with the 1.6 TI-VCT they do now. My old 206's 75 BHP 1.4 8v is about as fast as them, that's how bad they are (0.3s difference with 0-100 - but the Peugeot feels much faster because its throttle is actually responsive). That means that for any engine worth going for you need to go up another step to the 150 BHP 1.6 (which I doubt is much better) and that already puts you at 27 or 28 grand without any extras. That puts you squarely into VW Golf territory at which point I'll take the VW. It is built better, has a much better interior, comes better equipped out of the box. More importantly though, the suspension isn't crap, the steering is direct and you don't get the horrendous lag Ford's electronic pedals have.
All the performance issues will be fixed in the ST version, but that then costs as much as the Golf GTI does (or did anyway, Golf 7 GTI isn't available yet). And then the VW still has the upper hand when it comes to comfort and build quality. And before you start talking numbers; yes, the Golf GTI would have 40 BHP less and 60 NM less torque. From what I hear the Focus ST is a much rougher ride though.
And to touch on Cadillac: nice cars, but once again a retarded American brand that don't know what to do here and try to charge more than they do "back home". A CTS-V is 150 grand, an M5 is 25 grand less. They have near identical performance, yet the M5 is much more fuel economic again and I'm not sure whether the CTS-V can hold its own against an M-series when it comes to handling; the M-series are praised for a reason.
Edit: to lay out my problems with brands like Ford, here's some numbers:
- Peugeot 208 GTI: 1.6L 16v, 200 BHP, 275 NM, 0-100 in 6.8s - 25.5 grand
- Ford Focus ST-2: 2.0L 16v, 250 BHP, 340 NM, 0-100 in 6.5s - 36.6 grand
The cars are very similar in build quality; the Peugeot has a slight edge, because they used very nice materials in the 208. The big difference aside from that though? The mileage. Not only does the ST-2 (and note that this is the ST-2, not even ST-3 which is worse) cost 11 grand more, it also consumes some 15-25% more fuel. For 0.3s, that's not worth it and the handling's not going to be better. At the Ford's price point you can get the Golf 6 GTI Edition 35 - identical performance, but with the added build quality and comfort.
Last edited by Werelds on Tue, 22nd Jan 2013 10:25; edited 2 times in total
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14361
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| Posted: Tue, 22nd Jan 2013 10:16 Post subject: |
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| Mchart wrote: |
Cadillac which is a GM brand I easily put on par with the german 'top tier' brands. The current generation CTS-V trounces the M5 and C63 AMG in every category - And it's cheaper. (At least in the states) |
Except the CTS-V is butt ugly. I'd gladly pay more for an M5.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Tue, 22nd Jan 2013 11:18 Post subject: |
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| couleur wrote: | | Mchart wrote: |
Cadillac which is a GM brand I easily put on par with the german 'top tier' brands. The current generation CTS-V trounces the M5 and C63 AMG in every category - And it's cheaper. (At least in the states) |
Except the CTS-V is butt ugly. I'd gladly pay more for an M5. |
Don't really care about looks. It's faster around the 'ring then the M5 and way cheaper in the states so thats all I care about. You can get a used CTS-V with only 10k miles in the states for only like $50-$60 grand. Not to mention that LS V8 is a hell of a lot easier to maintain, and get more power out of. They also don't offer the M5 with stickshift, where as the CTS-V has it. Which for me I prefer, even if the SMG is faster. (Easier to maintain a bog standard manual transmission anyways)
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| Posted: Tue, 22nd Jan 2013 11:23 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | | Mchart wrote: | | No, a Ford isn't a 'premium brand' but brand image means nothing. You should know better then this. You buy what the best value is in the particular market segment. I'd say after the discount that Mercedes is actually not that bad knowing the prices of other cars. If he weren't getting the discount though it would be a rip-off. |
The big problem is that anything below the ST is just shit for the money really. That's why they don't do as well here, Ford haven't quite grasped the European market yet, like many American companies haven't. They come with engines that like their fuel the American way (cheap and lots of it), don't match some of the European brands in quality yet still expect to charge as much or even more than them.
I've driven their 125 BHP 1.6 "sport" whatever piece of crap, in a goddamn Fiesta as well (which is lighter than the Focus obviously). I've also driven my neighbour's new Focus with the 1.6 TI-VCT they do now. My old 206's 75 BHP 1.4 8v is about as fast as them, that's how bad they are (0.3s difference with 0-100 - but the Peugeot feels much faster because its throttle is actually responsive). That means that for any engine worth going for you need to go up another step to the 150 BHP 1.6 (which I doubt is much better) and that already puts you at 27 or 28 grand without any extras. That puts you squarely into VW Golf territory at which point I'll take the VW. It is built better, has a much better interior, comes better equipped out of the box. More importantly though, the suspension isn't crap, the steering is direct and you don't get the horrendous lag Ford's electronic pedals have.
All the performance issues will be fixed in the ST version, but that then costs as much as the Golf GTI does (or did anyway, Golf 7 GTI isn't available yet). And then the VW still has the upper hand when it comes to comfort and build quality. And before you start talking numbers; yes, the Golf GTI would have 40 BHP less and 60 NM less torque. From what I hear the Focus ST is a much rougher ride though.
And to touch on Cadillac: nice cars, but once again a retarded American brand that don't know what to do here and try to charge more than they do "back home". A CTS-V is 150 grand, an M5 is 25 grand less. They have near identical performance, yet the M5 is much more fuel economic again and I'm not sure whether the CTS-V can hold its own against an M-series when it comes to handling; the M-series are praised for a reason.
Edit: to lay out my problems with brands like Ford, here's some numbers:
- Peugeot 208 GTI: 1.6L 16v, 200 BHP, 275 NM, 0-100 in 6.8s - 25.5 grand
- Ford Focus ST-2: 2.0L 16v, 250 BHP, 340 NM, 0-100 in 6.5s - 36.6 grand
The cars are very similar in build quality; the Peugeot has a slight edge, because they used very nice materials in the 208. The big difference aside from that though? The mileage. Not only does the ST-2 (and note that this is the ST-2, not even ST-3 which is worse) cost 11 grand more, it also consumes some 15-25% more fuel. For 0.3s, that's not worth it and the handling's not going to be better. At the Ford's price point you can get the Golf 6 GTI Edition 35 - identical performance, but with the added build quality and comfort. |
6.5 0-60 is fairly slow. Both the Speed 3 and ST (Which are basically identical cars. The I4 Ecoboost is basically the MZR DISI.) get a 6 second 0-60.
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Tue, 22nd Jan 2013 11:32 Post subject: |
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| Mchart wrote: | | 6.5 0-60 is fairly slow. Both the Speed 3 and ST (Which are basically identical cars. The I4 Ecoboost is basically the MZR DISI.) get a 6 second 0-60. |
Erm, no, they don't.
ST-3 is nothing faster than the ST-2 (just checked my numbers, ST-3 is identical) does it in 6.5s flat like I pointed out above - also a 2.0L engine, not 2.3. Mazda 3 2.3 DISI Turbo MPS (which is what the Speed 3 is called here): 260 BHP, 380 Nm, 0-100 in 6.1s. But that costs a retarded 50 grand.
The only Focus that ever sat around that 6 seconds was the previous model Focus RS (not ST): 305 BHP, 440 Nm, 5.9s. Also 50 grand again.
And both the Mazda and Ford consume almost as much fuel as a bloody M3.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14361
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| Posted: Tue, 22nd Jan 2013 11:39 Post subject: |
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| Mchart wrote: | | couleur wrote: | | Mchart wrote: |
Cadillac which is a GM brand I easily put on par with the german 'top tier' brands. The current generation CTS-V trounces the M5 and C63 AMG in every category - And it's cheaper. (At least in the states) |
Except the CTS-V is butt ugly. I'd gladly pay more for an M5. |
Don't really care about looks. It's faster around the 'ring then the M5 and way cheaper in the states so thats all I care about. You can get a used CTS-V with only 10k miles in the states for only like $50-$60 grand. Not to mention that LS V8 is a hell of a lot easier to maintain, and get more power out of. They also don't offer the M5 with stickshift, where as the CTS-V has it. Which for me I prefer, even if the SMG is faster. (Easier to maintain a bog standard manual transmission anyways) |
Apparently the 2013 M5 is faster. (According to a quick google research)
But yeah, I just like the BMW design at the moment. I can afford neither of those cars anyway. And even if I could, I wouldnt spend the money on a car.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Tue, 22nd Jan 2013 14:09 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | | Mchart wrote: | | 6.5 0-60 is fairly slow. Both the Speed 3 and ST (Which are basically identical cars. The I4 Ecoboost is basically the MZR DISI.) get a 6 second 0-60. |
Erm, no, they don't.
ST-3 is nothing faster than the ST-2 (just checked my numbers, ST-3 is identical) does it in 6.5s flat like I pointed out above - also a 2.0L engine, not 2.3. Mazda 3 2.3 DISI Turbo MPS (which is what the Speed 3 is called here): 260 BHP, 380 Nm, 0-100 in 6.1s. But that costs a retarded 50 grand.
The only Focus that ever sat around that 6 seconds was the previous model Focus RS (not ST): 305 BHP, 440 Nm, 5.9s. Also 50 grand again.
And both the Mazda and Ford consume almost as much fuel as a bloody M3. |
Ford developed their ecoboost engines heavily off what was learned with the DISI. The 2.0l I4 ecoboost in the new ST is nothing more but a destroked MZR DISI with a smaller turbo. IM and EM are obviously different, but even the head is a close match.
The new ST will post 0-60 and 1/4 mile times that are on par with the Speed 3. MS3 is mildly faster, but stock-to-stock both cars are pretty much the same when it comes to both 1/4 mile numbers and track times. The MS3 is still the better car though. Has a LSD, and easier to mod at the moment. That being said; It's easy getting both cars to 300HP.
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Tue, 22nd Jan 2013 14:52 Post subject: |
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That still doesn't justify the cost for the Ford. The Mazda I can somewhat see, they're nicer on the inside than Ford, but even so 50 grand puts it around the BMW M135i (320 BHP, 450 Nm, 5.1s and it's RWD of course, lots of fun to be had with that) in terms of price (as well as fuel consumption). But then the BMW is almost a whole second faster and comes with the added quality that comes with BMW.
Again, I get that in the US prices are different, but unless Ford price their shit accordingly over here, I don't think they're worth it. And like I said, their lesser engines really are lesser engines. I still can't wrap my head around how shit their atmospheric engines are.
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| Posted: Tue, 22nd Jan 2013 15:07 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | That still doesn't justify the cost for the Ford. The Mazda I can somewhat see, they're nicer on the inside than Ford, but even so 50 grand puts it around the BMW M135i (320 BHP, 450 Nm, 5.1s and it's RWD of course, lots of fun to be had with that) in terms of price (as well as fuel consumption). But then the BMW is almost a whole second faster and comes with the added quality that comes with BMW.
Again, I get that in the US prices are different, but unless Ford price their shit accordingly over here, I don't think they're worth it. And like I said, their lesser engines really are lesser engines. I still can't wrap my head around how shit their atmospheric engines are. |
Well, over here in Europe they are generally shit. They don't offer the V6 Ecoboost as far as I was aware in the Mondeo, nor do you they obviously offer the new coyote V8 in any cars. The 2.0l Ecoboost isn't shit though. It's a nice little engine that has some tweaks over the MZR DISI. It would be making more power then the 2.3l DISI if they would have kept the longer stroke and kept the K04 instead of using the smaller K03.
And yes, anything with the N54/N55 engine from BMW is worth the price. Beyond the fact that they are actually making closer to 320-330 HP then the advertised 300 - With nothing but a retune make upwards of 380 at the crank.
And at least for the new US Focus ST the interior is mildly nicer then the MS3's. The MS3 is getting to be an old car now and they haven't really updated the interior. It still has all the features one would want, but compared to the ST i'd say it isn't as good. The recaro seats in the ST are fucking nice as well.
Anyways, entirely off-topic discussion at this point. Like I said, now that I realize how expensive cars like the ST/MS3 are getting that mercedes for that discounted price is a good deal and it would be hard to find anything better for the price. (Unless he shops used)
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| Posted: Thu, 31st Jan 2013 14:43 Post subject: |
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alright, fuck it ! I'm ordering it tomorrow in silver.
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| Posted: Fri, 1st Feb 2013 15:49 Post subject: |
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24645
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Fri, 1st Feb 2013 23:24 Post subject: |
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AMG is the Benz tuning/aftermarket booster partner. Does that mean your engine has been tuned by AMG as well or is it just the luxury/sport style and interior that has been altered?
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Sat, 2nd Feb 2013 01:18 Post subject: |
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Well, I don't know about the engine, but I know that they're doing some technical changes to the suspension, exhaust system, gears, brakes & etc. because of that and yea of course interior/exterior changes.
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24645
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Sat, 2nd Feb 2013 01:20 Post subject: |
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*so envious that the colour green isn't really enough to describe it*
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24645
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Sat, 2nd Feb 2013 01:29 Post subject: |
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Different front/back, rims, lights.
You're going to have so much fun this spring/summer. Just don't go kill yourself on Autobahn.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Sun, 3rd Feb 2013 04:15 Post subject: |
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some real life pics of the car with the same settings as mine, even the same colour.
http://imgur.com/a/IT1ro#0
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24645
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Thu, 7th Feb 2013 17:49 Post subject: |
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Stop making me (us) jealous. I just have my Citroën Xantia with rusty wheel arches over and behind the back wheels (main issue of that model). The turbo in my car is basically only active between 2400-2700rpm. I can tweak it, put a release valve to increase the power and tweak the RPM span but that would only make it consume more fuel, something which is already an issue since I live in a city with many traffic lights (the worst enemy of fuel consumption).
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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W123
Posts: 2510
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Feb 2013 12:13 Post subject: |
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Congrats. Brave man ordering a first gen of a new car from MB. Lame that it is FWD though... seems so wrong on a Benz, though we only get the RWD and 4WD versions in the states, until now. I doubt many people will notice the difference between FWD and RWD i suppose.
I have a soft spot for Benzes as my first car was a 1985 turbo diesel. They had some huge quality problems in the late 90s, early 2000s.. things like spring perches failing ( = driver losing control of the steering), wiring harnesses disintegrating, all sorts of electronic issues only German cars seem to have.
But
I have heard they have improved their quality quite a bit though since the early 2000s. Not nearly up to Japanese standards but then again they're a lot better drivers than their Japanese counterparts. They also tend to push the envelope in terms of gadgetry and electronic nannies, so its no surprise that the more of this junk you have in the car, the more problems you will have.
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Feb 2013 12:20 Post subject: |
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The real thing looks much better than the renders.
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deelix
PDIP Member
Posts: 32062
Location: Norway
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Feb 2013 14:22 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | | Stop making me (us) jealous. |
Indeed 
I have nothing, as transportation i'm forced to make use of the earths rotation when i'm lying on the floor!
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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Przepraszam
VIP Member
Posts: 14501
Location: Poland. New York.
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Feb 2013 14:26 Post subject: |
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When I get a real job. I will important Fiat 126p to NY. And drive it, all the time. 
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
Posts: 65085
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Tue, 19th Feb 2013 19:13 Post subject: |
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| Przepraszam wrote: | | When I get a real job. I will important Fiat 126p to NY. And drive it, all the time. |
Fiat 126 <3 
My uncle had it, epic car is epic. When you drive it, it basically feels like you're in direct contact with the ground..almost like a go-kart, only way slower xD |
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