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Macknu
Posts: 636
Location: Sweden
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 Posted: Mon, 8th Aug 2005 20:43 Post subject: |
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| Buena_Vista wrote: | | if the bombs werent dropped it would have cause many more soldiers, both american and japanese, and many more citizens, to die. |
Maybe, maybe not. Impossible to know for sure.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Mon, 8th Aug 2005 21:25 Post subject: |
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| -=Cartoon=- wrote: | huh... its got nothing to do with ""Japan did worse".
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Then why do you keep on bringing up things that have nothing to do with the subject? Why is it necessary for you to bring up what the japanese did? If not to try and make some point about "Hey! They were worse" - which is irrelevant. You do not judge 200´000 people on the actions of their countrymen.
This is a cardinal error that is repeated everywhere. (ie. against USA, Iraq, Saudi-Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, etc.)
This is however irrelevant. The point stays: Targeting civilians, no matter the "bigger issue" is always genocide and murder.
It doesn't matter how you try to get around it.
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My point was that the japanese people themselfs are calling the nuke evil etc.. yet at the same time they DENY what went on in china..
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Whether the japanese admit or deny what went on in China has nothing to do with what USA did to the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and you know it.
It wasn't the 200´000 that died that commited the deeds in China.
Those who died in all majority were innocent, and fringework guessing is just the apologists way out.
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Im just saying.. it seems unfair to pick on one country without doing it to the others  |
If I were to pick on all the nations that have commited atrocities in one thread, I'd be writing until dead days.
Fact remains, USA commited genocide, which was an immoral, and atrocious act. This is not lessened by any circumstances.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Mon, 8th Aug 2005 21:36 Post subject: |
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| killmestupid wrote: | | You entirely missed the point. |
No, I did not. Utilitarian thinking is very familiar to me. It's the way of justifying the means by the end, and it's the first rule of any apologist.
The americans did not have the right to choose death for the civilian lives of Japan. No matter that the leaders of their nation were at war. It's just that simple. You can not target innocent civilians no matter the purpose of that deed.
America wanted to avoid a costly war, and paid instead with 200´000 innocent lives.
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If they didn't drop the nuke, many more would die under the will of the Emperor. |
So it's better they die by an american nuclear bomb? Your logic is flawed.
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It wasn't some democracy there, it was a full blown empire, and [...]
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Irrelevant, and it does not make targeting innocent civilians any more justified.
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the Japanese people actually supported that.
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So you mean, these 200´000 that died really wanted to give their lives? You say they supported the decision? This is a bold claim, why? Did the americans do some poll in Hiroshima and Nagasaki before the bombs were dropped?
What did it look like: "Is it ok for you, and 199000 of your country men to die, so your government pulls out of this war?"
No one, apart from those that died, had the right to decide what would happen with their lives.
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The death toll would easily increased from 200k to the millions if the nuke hadn't been dropped. |
This is highly speculative, at best. What-if-scenarios are usually flawed, as no one can predict what happens (unless you claim to be a prophet, are you?)
| Quote: | | No one is defending it, either. Well, I'm not. I'm just saying that was the best choice there was to do at the time. Not a great choice either, but it ended the Pacific War fast enough to not get anymore soldier and civilian casualties. |
Yes, it made it so instead of americans fighting against soldiers "to make their point", americans dropped a bomb on innocent civilians.
I don't see anything good at all in that decision, just self-righteousness.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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-=Cartoon=-
VIP Member
Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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| Posted: Tue, 9th Aug 2005 05:13 Post subject: |
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remember japanese school girls and boys were being taught how to blow themselfs up... just look at how many japanese people commited suicide in some of the islands the americans captured...
i think they should have dropped one nuke....... 2 imho was way over the top..
The americans were already firebombing japan 24/7.. hundreds more people died in the firebombings than did in the nukes..
War is hell.
The british/canadians/americans were bombing civilianz in germany
The germans were bombing civilianz everywhere
The russians were bombing civilianz everywhere
The americans were bombing civilianz everywhere
The italians were bombing civilianz
Anyways.. when it comes down to it.. if i was the president i would have dropped one bomb....on a pure millitary target... waited a few weeks and seen what happened..
IMHO if the world had invaded japan.. far far far far far more civilianz would have died.....
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Tue, 9th Aug 2005 05:14 Post subject: |
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Nothing you write justifies targeting innocent civilians.
Period.
End of story.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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-=Cartoon=-
VIP Member
Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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| Posted: Tue, 9th Aug 2005 05:17 Post subject: |
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is a civillian still a civillian if they have a bomb strapped on there chest ?>
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MAD_MAX333
Moderator
Posts: 7020
Location: Toronto, Canada...eh
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| Posted: Tue, 9th Aug 2005 05:55 Post subject: |
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did those 200000 have bombs attached to them??? or were being trained??? now you might say well they could have gotten bombed later and killed americans... well with that logic, i should report you to the fbi cause you COULD go nuts and get a gun and kill 20 people in some time in the future.
with that said i think it was cowerdly of US to drop not one but TWO atomic bombs on innocent people.
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-=Cartoon=-
VIP Member
Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Tue, 9th Aug 2005 06:31 Post subject: |
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All of Japan were trained suicide-bombers.
My, I'll make sure to give that piece of information to historians for future reference.
Now it's all so clear.
Jebus! Imagine that, I've been wrong all the time.
Hell, since most fascist states do the same, let's nuke all non-democracies in the world, seeing how at least most of them probably train every citizen (and child) to become a suicide-bomber.
Who cares if there's one or two exceptions that weren't a fanatical suicide-bombers. I mean, we'll save the probable life-loss of billions, should all these crazy mindless fanatics run amok in any civilized democratic nation.
What do you mean, "How is it civilized to nuke other nations based on speculatory presumptions?" - are you some God damned pacifist?
KILL KILL KILL!
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Phluxed
VIP Member
Posts: 4911
Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue, 9th Aug 2005 07:12 Post subject: |
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Ignoring all the posts, because I don't feel like reading through your debate, I'll just give my opinion. I personally think it's about as OK as seal clubbing. You see the innocent defenseless seals, standing there, and you have to make a decision. To club them until they become a mushy pile of nothing, or to let them live and find alternatives for whatever your use for their corpse are. Dropping a nuke is similar. The government of a country KNOWS they are killing innocent people who are defenseless. They consider it and weigh their options. Often times many stupid factors will play a part in it, and cause people to be blinded to whatever they are doing. Thus the bomb is dropped, and their corpses (or lack there of) as a way to persuade the attacked country to surrender.
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-=Cartoon=-
VIP Member
Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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| Posted: Tue, 9th Aug 2005 08:03 Post subject: |
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seal clubbing is bad mkay
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue, 9th Aug 2005 22:37 Post subject: |
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| -=Cartoon=- wrote: | | seal clubbing is bad mkay |
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| Posted: Tue, 9th Aug 2005 23:00 Post subject: |
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| -=Cartoon=- wrote: | | seal clubbing is bad mkay |
Hahahahaha, they club them not to damage the furr, hahaahaha, GG.
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| Posted: Wed, 10th Aug 2005 05:08 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 16:09; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Wed, 10th Aug 2005 05:29 Post subject: |
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Good thing you people know who is innocent. You all must have ESP.
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Mutantius
VIP Member
Posts: 18594
Location: In Elektro looking for beans
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| Posted: Wed, 10th Aug 2005 11:22 Post subject: |
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| Weducks wrote: | | Good thing you people know who is innocent. You all must have ESP. |
So the Japanese Children who was turned to dust during the nuclear bombs was soldiers threatening our countries?
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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| Posted: Wed, 10th Aug 2005 11:51 Post subject: |
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so japan DIDNT kill innocent civilians. i see now
even the army of america was innocent cause they werent in a war
i agree there are other ways then a nuke (the radiation is still there) but what japan seems to be saying is that they want to make war but they dont want the consequences of that war.
there will always be civilian casualties. wont somebody please think of the children, like grownups are allowed to die
and what bothers me most is that they are spending all that money on people who are already dead instead of using it to help people who really need it and are starving
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Wed, 10th Aug 2005 12:56 Post subject: |
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| JeanPerrier wrote: | so japan DIDNT kill innocent civilians. i see now
even the army of america was innocent cause they werent in a war
i agree there are other ways then a nuke (the radiation is still there) but what japan seems to be saying is that they want to make war but they dont want the consequences of that war.
there will always be civilian casualties [...] |
Whether or not Japan did kill innocent civilians is irrelevant to the issue, an issue which you've either just ignored here, or just didn't see.
Do you, or do you not agree that targeting civilians, irregardless of the situation being that it's a war, is wrong, in all situations?
If you do think it's "OK" to specifically target innocent civilians, then for Pete's sake provide a deductive moral argument to support it (because it indeed is a moral issue).
Also, if you agree that it is agreeable to target innocent civilians, please provide me with an argument why then it's not "OK" for ie. terrorists to target innocent civilians.
In my opinion if you approve of the first, you should not complain about the latter. Or does the shoe only fit on those occasions they benefit you, or your view of the world?
And because some people need to be reminded, these are just questions, if you find them offensive, then perhaps you need to re-think your argument, or even your view of the situation.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
Last edited by fisk on Wed, 10th Aug 2005 19:32; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Wed, 10th Aug 2005 15:26 Post subject: |
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USA is the only country in the world who have droped a nuked.. And they are supose to be the "good" guys?
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Wed, 10th Aug 2005 20:25 Post subject: |
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Personally, i dont think directly attacking civilians is right, in any circumstance and in whatever type of "war". Mind u, if they armed I would, but then they'd be combatant's right? not armed civi's?
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| Posted: Wed, 10th Aug 2005 22:33 Post subject: |
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| HaschBiff wrote: | | USA is the only country in the world who have droped a nuked.. And they are supose to be the "good" guys? |
Ignorant children talking about ww2 is FREAKING FUNNY. Japs started the war, would have used the nuke if they had it, and were all willing to die for their emperor.
Easy if you are a child in Sweden to judge people that saved you from the Nazis.
also remember USA was fighting to Wars at once, neither of which they started.
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| Posted: Wed, 10th Aug 2005 22:49 Post subject: |
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| xusnac wrote: | | HaschBiff wrote: | | USA is the only country in the world who have droped a nuked.. And they are supose to be the "good" guys? |
Ignorant children talking about ww2 is FREAKING FUNNY. Japs started the war, would have used the nuke if they had it, and were all willing to die for their emperor.
Easy if you are a child in Sweden to judge people that saved you from the Nazis.
also remember USA was fighting to Wars at once, neither of which they started. |
Child? You don't know how old iam so plz stfu.
How cam you know they would have used it.
You have ABSOLUTLEY NO proof of that.
So stop dreaming.
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Macknu
Posts: 636
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed, 10th Aug 2005 23:35 Post subject: |
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| xusnac wrote: | | HaschBiff wrote: | | USA is the only country in the world who have droped a nuked.. And they are supose to be the "good" guys? |
Ignorant children talking about ww2 is FREAKING FUNNY. Japs started the war, would have used the nuke if they had it, and were all willing to die for their emperor.
Easy if you are a child in Sweden to judge people that saved you from the Nazis.
also remember USA was fighting to Wars at once, neither of which they started. |
Does it make it better to nuke innocent civilians just couse they started it?
And usa didnt save us from nazis, they just took the credit for it.
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Aug 2005 00:26 Post subject: |
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| Nailbiter wrote: | | Macknu wrote: | | And usa didnt save us from nazis, they just took the credit for it. |
haha thats just great. a classic!  |
And its COMPLETLY AND FACTUALLY TRUE - *standing clap*
EDIT: Just so its clear, im serious and not being sarcastic
Last edited by SycoShaman on Thu, 11th Aug 2005 00:28; edited 1 time in total |
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Macknu
Posts: 636
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Aug 2005 00:34 Post subject: |
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| HaschBiff wrote: | | xusnac wrote: | | HaschBiff wrote: | | USA is the only country in the world who have droped a nuked.. And they are supose to be the "good" guys? |
Ignorant children talking about ww2 is FREAKING FUNNY. Japs started the war, would have used the nuke if they had it, and were all willing to die for their emperor.
Easy if you are a child in Sweden to judge people that saved you from the Nazis.
also remember USA was fighting to Wars at once, neither of which they started. |
Child? You don't know how old iam so plz stfu.
How cam you know they would have used it.
You have ABSOLUTLEY NO proof of that.
So stop dreaming. |
How can you be so ignorant? Did you ever hear about Kamikaze? They would have used anything to win.
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Aug 2005 00:41 Post subject: |
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| Weducks wrote: |
How can you be so ignorant? Did you ever hear about Kamikaze? They would have used anything to win. |
Im not ignorant, im just open minded.
You guys are the ignorant ppl.
They used kamikaze, and? That dosen't mean they would have nuked.
Still that dosen't give you the right to nuke civilians.
Stupid f*cks.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Aug 2005 00:51 Post subject: |
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| Weducks wrote: | | they would have used anything to win. |
You mean like dropping two nuclear bombs on innocent civilians?
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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| Posted: Thu, 11th Aug 2005 00:51 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | Weducks wrote: | | they would have used anything to win. |
You mean like dropping two nuclear bombs on innocent civilians to win? |
Right on the spot man.
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