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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24763
Location: Your Mom
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 Posted: Tue, 6th Nov 2012 18:39 Post subject: Universe |
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Isn't it spectacular to think that our visible universe (which we simply call "the universe") is just a speck in a megaverse? That our ~13.7 billion year old universe may actually be MUCH older if we take the megaverse into the context? From modern research the mega-universe is formed in string/mesh like structures where our own little "universe" is just a dot in one of those strings?
That Big Bang was nothing more than a little flash in a dot in one of those fractal looking strings and this the ACTUAL megaverse (outside our view) is much much much much older. In fact, the megaverse may be one giant fractal-based collection of matter and energy (which in themselves are just aspects of dimensions).
Imagine that being a small cut (1%?) out of the megaverse. And in that picture OUR universe is just a pixel or two big.
Now, here lies the problem. We can't see further than 13.7 billion lightyears away. The universe (space itself) is expanding so fast that galaxies and stars outside that limit will move away from us faster than their photons can catch up to us. So we have to look locally and figure how the structure of space/time to see if we can figure out what MIGHT be beyond those distances. That's what the string/membrane theorists are doing, they're trying to figure out how thing work on levels below atoms, quarks, particles etc., to figure out the structure of space itself. This is complicated because they have to work with 9 dimensions even to get their math to work.
In either case, I love thinking about this. And I am very certain that our "little" visible universe is part of a megaverse that is much much much older than 13.7 billion years. Just as stars and planets are formed, as galaxies are formed, new miniverses (like ours) are formed along the perhaps-fractal-based structures of the space-time continuum by aggregating galaxies and matter from the surrounding areas.
ps. the picture I used is actually a scientific simulation of dark matter distribution in our miniverse, affecting the shaping of galaxies, clusters etc., but the principle is the same, I've seen projections of the bigger universe being distributed in similar matter albeit more thready.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
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| Posted: Tue, 6th Nov 2012 19:12 Post subject: |
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On one hand, this is fascinating. On the other, when looking at the economy of the world, the Islam of the world, the Mitt Romney of the world and can't but think how insignificant and pretentious this is. We attempt to understand something so large-scale and seemingly of no direct significance to the human race, yet we are unable to find a solution for trivial things such as religion, racism, zealotry. Multiverse, dimensions, fractals, strings, quarks. Cool story bro, considering nuclear threats and filming some retarded movie makes an entire retarded religion go apeshit crazy, when parents put acid on their daughter because she has spoken with a boy.
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| Posted: Tue, 6th Nov 2012 19:21 Post subject: |
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Ummm I think that the the fractal explanation of universe is abandoned (they thought that the galaxy clusters form fractal structures, but they don't, the universe isn't fractal because of something related to cosmology I forgot xD).
Oh, and multiverse theory is more of a philosophy imo, since you cannot test it 
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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Frant
King's Bounty
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| Posted: Tue, 6th Nov 2012 19:21 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | On one hand, this is fascinating. On the other, when looking at the economy of the world, the Islam of the world, the Mitt Romney of the world and can't but think how insignificant and pretentious this is. We attempt to understand something so large-scale and seemingly of no direct significance to the human race, yet we are unable to find a solution for trivial things such as religion, racism, zealotry. Multiverse, dimensions, fractals, strings, quarks. Cool story bro, considering nuclear threats and filming some retarded movie makes an entire retarded religion go apeshit crazy, when parents put acid on their daughter because she has spoken with a boy. |
I guess I'm an escapist. I feel I can't do much to help fix this pile of dung we've built up for millennia so I look into expanding my own mind instead, trying to get as far away from this place as possible.. in my mind. The idea (and theory, I didn't come up with this myself unfortunately  ) of our universe being as insignificant in the megaverse as our planet is in this galaxy.. It sort of diminishes the petty shit happening on this planet. We're not even a speck of dirt on a speck of dirt in the big picture. Which is somewhat soothing to me.
I mean, we are all part of the universe, hell, we ARE the universe, built by the universe by the building blocks of the universe (well, matter from old super novas) so our closes relatives are the stars we can see.. They're made of the same matter, perhaps even from the same supernova. Thoughts like that temporarily give me some relief of the Islamic world, obama/romney, religion, income, responsibilities etc... Besides, it stretches the mind a little so it becomes a little of a work out.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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Frant
King's Bounty
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| Posted: Tue, 6th Nov 2012 19:28 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | Ummm I think that the the fractal explanation of universe is abandoned (they thought that the galaxy clusters form fractal structures, but they don't, the universe isn't fractal because of something related to cosmology I forgot xD).
Oh, and multiverse theory is more of a philosophy imo, since you cannot test it |
Yes, but I'm not really talking about a multiverse (ie. several separate universes floating around/moving away from each other like billiard balls), I'm talking about a megaverse where our visible universe is just a spot, a pixel in the entire universe. I used the fractal model simply because I thought the threaded structures I've seen had some fractal look to them, but that wasn't really the point, that it was fractal. I used that simulation of dark matter distributed in our visible universe because that sort of represents (although it's too dense compared to what I saw but I couldn't find something closer) the megaverse.. Crooked strings, like messy cables, going in all kinds of directions, with billions of "miniverses" in the collection of crooked strings.
And yes, we can't look beyond the 13.7 billion year limit along our circumference, but if we can figure out the structure of the fabric of space-time continuum or go even further, we could build a plausible model of what the rest of the megaverse may look like.
Someone saying that the universe is "this big" because we can't see further than a certain amount of lightyears belongs to pre-Einstein physics.
But I guess they settled for it since it was easier to simply focus on what we CAN see, and let the theoretical physicists deal with the rest.. Which is sensible I guess.
But I like thinking big, thought experiments, all that.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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Invasor
Moderator
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| Posted: Tue, 6th Nov 2012 19:32 Post subject: |
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Multiple universes or not, we are small enough... in every possible sense.
I find it interesting to wonder what's outside the box (using the metaphor of the picture in the first post).
I got nothing to add, but I have to say this is a nice topic.
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Grale
Banned
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24763
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Tue, 6th Nov 2012 19:44 Post subject: |
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| Invasor wrote: | Multiple universes or not, we are small enough... in every possible sense.
I find it interesting to wonder what's outside the box (using the metaphor of the picture in the first post).
I got nothing to add, but I have to say this is a nice topic. |
Oh, outside the box is N% more universe where N is arbitrary. It may actually BE infinite.
And here's a question, I thought about this last night before going to sleep.
Imagine you're holding the end of a rope that is infinitely long. How is that possible? Since you're holding the end/beginning of the rope, it has an end or beginning, how can it be infinitely long? If it was truly infinitely long it would have no beginning nor end. Yet the rope stretches out infinitely from the end of the rope you're holding.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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zmed
Posts: 9234
Location: Orbanistan
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| Posted: Tue, 6th Nov 2012 19:46 Post subject: |
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Frant
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73624
Location: Israel
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| Posted: Tue, 6th Nov 2012 19:55 Post subject: |
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| zmed wrote: | Yeah...the universe...it's big...really big... 
I go the opposite way from Leo. Instead of dismissing all this splendor, when I think about the cosmos, I dismiss the petty, and utterly meaningless squabbles of Earth. It's my escapism too.
Instead of thinking how utterly insignificant I really am, I think just how utterly magnificent is the universe I live in. At that point, I couldn't care less about Romney's hocuspocus underpants. |
I do not dismiss anything, I just look at things in perspective. I guess I am much more realist than escapist. I rather we deal with more pressing things. But it's fun to read from time to time.  |
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zmed
Posts: 9234
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 02:43 Post subject: |
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The Lambda CDM model is full of inconsistencies.
The main reason why we assume the universe is accelerating its expansion has to do with observations that place a proportional relationship between redshift and distance.
The most accepted interpretation is that this redshift is caused by the light source being moving away from us, but there can be a wide array of other most elusive causes that would produce such phenomenon without the necessity for an expanding universe.
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 02:54 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | On one hand, this is fascinating. On the other, when looking at the economy of the world, the Islam of the world, the Mitt Romney of the world and can't but think how insignificant and pretentious this is. We attempt to understand something so large-scale and seemingly of no direct significance to the human race, yet we are unable to find a solution for trivial things such as religion, racism, zealotry. Multiverse, dimensions, fractals, strings, quarks. Cool story bro, considering nuclear threats and filming some retarded movie makes an entire retarded religion go apeshit crazy, when parents put acid on their daughter because she has spoken with a boy. |
Probably the best post you've ever made on this forum <3 |
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 03:03 Post subject: |
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| SpykeZ wrote: | | LeoNatan wrote: | | On one hand, this is fascinating. On the other, when looking at the economy of the world, the Islam of the world, the Mitt Romney of the world and can't but think how insignificant and pretentious this is. We attempt to understand something so large-scale and seemingly of no direct significance to the human race, yet we are unable to find a solution for trivial things such as religion, racism, zealotry. Multiverse, dimensions, fractals, strings, quarks. Cool story bro, considering nuclear threats and filming some retarded movie makes an entire retarded religion go apeshit crazy, when parents put acid on their daughter because she has spoken with a boy. |
Probably the best post you've ever made on this forum <3 |
That argument from Leo is no different from another recurring argument.
"we shouldn't go to Mars until we solve world hunger, or cure cancer, or whatever"
Why should we delay that which is merely technically challenging for that which is social absurd?
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DXWarlock
VIP Member
Posts: 11549
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 06:14 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: | | SpykeZ wrote: | | LeoNatan wrote: | | On one hand, this is fascinating. On the other, when looking at the economy of the world, the Islam of the world, the Mitt Romney of the world and can't but think how insignificant and pretentious this is. We attempt to understand something so large-scale and seemingly of no direct significance to the human race, yet we are unable to find a solution for trivial things such as religion, racism, zealotry. Multiverse, dimensions, fractals, strings, quarks. Cool story bro, considering nuclear threats and filming some retarded movie makes an entire retarded religion go apeshit crazy, when parents put acid on their daughter because she has spoken with a boy. |
Probably the best post you've ever made on this forum <3 |
That argument from Leo is no different from another recurring argument.
"we shouldn't go to Mars until we solve world hunger, or cure cancer, or whatever"
Why should we delay that which is merely technically challenging for that which is social absurd? |
Because without the social part of the equation, there will be no 'society' to undertake such challenges.
People can only goto mars and beyond, if there is people around to do it.
Are you saying it's absurd to assure that there is some of us around in the future to do the things we dare ourselves to do?
Whats the point of reaching technical goals that in the end, are nothing but landmarks on our achievements of scientific merit, if the very species that does it, is in a dismal state living because of it?
I can't quite think of a phase to make the point I'm trying to make..
what good is the celebrations of advancement in future exploration, if the creatures doing it are ignoring furthering their personal well being the process?
Its seems a greater loss to me to risk losing all that advancement, to something as trivial as forgetting about ourselves during it.
We are making these advancements like going to mars for the better of our own self, correct?
We are the only creature using this knowledge we gain doing so. So What good is to have new knowledge and achievements, if the creatures using it are in no better state because of it? To say 'we did it!"?
I can only see it as some alien race we find, that made great advancements in space travel, physics, mathematics, and universal understanding..to die off and not being around to use what they learned..that knowledge was gained in vain.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 09:25 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: | | Nhiumewyn wrote: | | SpykeZ wrote: |
Probably the best post you've ever made on this forum <3 |
That argument from Leo is no different from another recurring argument.
"we shouldn't go to Mars until we solve world hunger, or cure cancer, or whatever"
Why should we delay that which is merely technically challenging for that which is social absurd? |
Because without the social part of the equation, there will be no 'society' to undertake such challenges.
People can only goto mars and beyond, if there is people around to do it.
Are you saying it's absurd to assure that there is some of us around in the future to do the things we dare ourselves to do?
Whats the point of reaching technical goals that in the end, are nothing but landmarks on our achievements of scientific merit, if the very species that does it, is in a dismal state living because of it?
I can't quite think of a phase to make the point I'm trying to make..
what good is the celebrations of advancement in future exploration, if the creatures doing it are ignoring furthering their personal well being the process?
Its seems a greater loss to me to risk losing all that advancement, to something as trivial as forgetting about ourselves during it.
We are making these advancements like going to mars for the better of our own self, correct?
We are the only creature using this knowledge we gain doing so. So What good is to have new knowledge and achievements, if the creatures using it are in no better state because of it? To say 'we did it!"?
I can only see it as some alien race we find, that made great advancements in space travel, physics, mathematics, and universal understanding..to die off and not being around to use what they learned..that knowledge was gained in vain. |
Everything that we do is to ultimately serve our self interest as individuals, there is no society, there is no species, they are all meta projections of the self.
And no, we are not making scientific advancements for the betterment of the human race, at least that's not what drives true scientific inquiry, what drives it is curiosity and the selfish need to know, to understand and to conquer nature.
A true scientist does not want to discover the cure for cancer for the reason of helping his fellow man, but rather because he wants to challenge himself and to further his own understanding over the natural world.
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Sin317
Banned
Posts: 24321
Location: Geneva
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 09:39 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: | | DXWarlock wrote: | | Nhiumewyn wrote: |
That argument from Leo is no different from another recurring argument.
"we shouldn't go to Mars until we solve world hunger, or cure cancer, or whatever"
Why should we delay that which is merely technically challenging for that which is social absurd? |
Because without the social part of the equation, there will be no 'society' to undertake such challenges.
People can only goto mars and beyond, if there is people around to do it.
Are you saying it's absurd to assure that there is some of us around in the future to do the things we dare ourselves to do?
Whats the point of reaching technical goals that in the end, are nothing but landmarks on our achievements of scientific merit, if the very species that does it, is in a dismal state living because of it?
I can't quite think of a phase to make the point I'm trying to make..
what good is the celebrations of advancement in future exploration, if the creatures doing it are ignoring furthering their personal well being the process?
Its seems a greater loss to me to risk losing all that advancement, to something as trivial as forgetting about ourselves during it.
We are making these advancements like going to mars for the better of our own self, correct?
We are the only creature using this knowledge we gain doing so. So What good is to have new knowledge and achievements, if the creatures using it are in no better state because of it? To say 'we did it!"?
I can only see it as some alien race we find, that made great advancements in space travel, physics, mathematics, and universal understanding..to die off and not being around to use what they learned..that knowledge was gained in vain. |
Everything that we do is to ultimately serve our self interest as individuals, there is no society, there is no species, they are all meta projections of the self.
And no, we are not making scientific advancements for the betterment of the human race, at least that's not what drives true scientific inquiry, what drives it is curiosity and the selfish need to know, to understand and to conquer nature.
A true scientist does not want to discover the cure for cancer for the reason of helping his fellow man, but rather because he wants to challenge himself and to further his own understanding over the natural world. |
GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 09:40 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: |
Everything that we do is to ultimately serve our self interest as individuals, there is no society, there is no species, they are all meta projections of the self.
And no, we are not making scientific advancements for the betterment of the human race, at least that's not what drives true scientific inquiry, what drives it is curiosity and the selfish need to know, to understand and to conquer nature.
A true scientist does not want to discover the cure for cancer for the reason of helping his fellow man, but rather because he wants to challenge himself and to further his own understanding over the natural world. |
You really have gone through the looking glass, have you xD
I see nothing selfish in wanting to better oneself. Plus all true scientists are well aware of the impact their work can have on the life around them, so your statement that they are selfish and are doing that solely for their own interest is just bullshit
If you were a part of such a community (scientific) you'd see what it is to be and to work with ppl whose ideas can truly change the world.
But you are not. And you have no idea. Which is a shame. Cause you're not stupid. Just crazy. If you had a formal training, and contact with scientific community, maybe you wouldn't have this obscure view of the world around you, and you'd see how real scientists change the world...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 09:59 Post subject: |
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@leo
it's stupid to stop exploring science and turn to solve social problems on earth, social problems are on earth since beginning of man kind, you cant resolve problems of now 7 billion people on earth, and you cant control them all to be better, it's like sizif's work, it's mega stupid that religious people bellieve something that they parents or other people has tell them,. christians are atheist too, they dont believe in other gods,.. it's mega stupid that people believe in politicians that will "change the world in better world", and it's 30- 50 years almost the same, hunger in africa, war's for profits etc,. and no one cant do anything about it,. so at least thinking about end of space or universe makes me "escape" from this "everyone cares earth"
Why walk, when you can ride.
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 10:23 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | Nhiumewyn wrote: |
Everything that we do is to ultimately serve our self interest as individuals, there is no society, there is no species, they are all meta projections of the self.
And no, we are not making scientific advancements for the betterment of the human race, at least that's not what drives true scientific inquiry, what drives it is curiosity and the selfish need to know, to understand and to conquer nature.
A true scientist does not want to discover the cure for cancer for the reason of helping his fellow man, but rather because he wants to challenge himself and to further his own understanding over the natural world. |
You really have gone through the looking glass, have you xD
I see nothing selfish in wanting to better oneself. Plus all true scientists are well aware of the impact their work can have on the life around them, so your statement that they are selfish and are doing that solely for their own interest is just bullshit
If you were a part of such a community (scientific) you'd see what it is to be and to work with ppl whose ideas can truly change the world.
But you are not. And you have no idea. Which is a shame. Cause you're not stupid. Just crazy. If you had a formal training, and contact with scientific community, maybe you wouldn't have this obscure view of the world around you, and you'd see how real scientists change the world... |
I had formal training and I found it to be too focused on the social side of things.
You seem to mistake awareness of one's scientific influence with the reasons that drive scientific interest from the individual.
Do you think Newton, Einstein, Bohr or any other influential scientist was driven by the goal to change society during their major research years? They could've be aware of the implications of their work, but that wasn't what drove it.
Newton for example was known to held on to his work for years and was paranoid with secrecy.
It is true that certain scientific endeavours would not be possible without major collaboration and a dynamical community, but that wasn't the point that I tried to make, the point was with regards to the personal reasons that drive scientific inquiry.
The vast majority of people doing groundbreaking scientific work inside or outside the scientific community are driven primarily by their will to know, not from their will to change society and help others.
As a personal insight though, if I ever arrived at some scientific conclusion of the same magnitude of Einstein's general relativity or Heinsenberg's uncertainty principle, rest assure that such would die with me, for it has served its intended purpose, to enlighten me, the real reason why I pursued such research.
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 10:31 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: | | As a personal insight though, if I ever arrived at some scientific conclusion of the same magnitude of Einstein's general relativity or Heinsenberg's uncertainty principle, rest assure that such would die with me, for it has served its intended purpose, to enlighten me, the real reason why I pursued such research. |
Than you really have no idea of the meaning of the word scientist...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 10:40 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | Nhiumewyn wrote: | | As a personal insight though, if I ever arrived at some scientific conclusion of the same magnitude of Einstein's general relativity or Heinsenberg's uncertainty principle, rest assure that such would die with me, for it has served its intended purpose, to enlighten me, the real reason why I pursued such research. |
Than you really have no idea of the meaning of the word scientist... |
I have a very grounded idea of what the definition of scientist is, I believe that you have some shaded interpretation between the definition of the word scientist and the word engineer.
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 12:12 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: | | dingo_d wrote: | | Nhiumewyn wrote: | | As a personal insight though, if I ever arrived at some scientific conclusion of the same magnitude of Einstein's general relativity or Heinsenberg's uncertainty principle, rest assure that such would die with me, for it has served its intended purpose, to enlighten me, the real reason why I pursued such research. |
Than you really have no idea of the meaning of the word scientist... |
I have a very grounded idea of what the definition of scientist is, I believe that you have some shaded interpretation between the definition of the word scientist and the word engineer. |
I said meaning, not definition. Read carefully...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 12:25 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | Nhiumewyn wrote: | | dingo_d wrote: |
Than you really have no idea of the meaning of the word scientist... |
I have a very grounded idea of what the definition of scientist is, I believe that you have some shaded interpretation between the definition of the word scientist and the word engineer. |
I said meaning, not definition. Read carefully... |
All meaning is subjective.
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 12:53 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: | | dingo_d wrote: | | Nhiumewyn wrote: |
I have a very grounded idea of what the definition of scientist is, I believe that you have some shaded interpretation between the definition of the word scientist and the word engineer. |
I said meaning, not definition. Read carefully... |
All meaning is subjective. |
sigh... I don't know why I bother...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Wed, 7th Nov 2012 13:51 Post subject: |
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In times like these I just prefer to get high, masturbate and make some of explosions of my own so I can compensate for the sense of tinyhood the universe, megaverse, ultraverse makes me feel.
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