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garus
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Posts: 34200
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 Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:38 Post subject: |
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Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:51; edited 1 time in total
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spankie
VIP Member
Posts: 2958
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:39 Post subject: |
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| HostFat wrote: | | spankie wrote: | | It certainly did not come falling from the sky out of nothing. Someone designed it, someone is running the servers (distributed stil means multiple persons), someone decided to put it at 21million BTC by 2033. If someone can decide to put the maximum at 21million, someone can put it at 100million by 2013. |
Look, we can have a different opinion about economy etc.
But you still have a false information about all the Bitcoin network is working.
To change a rule on the network you will need to change all miners and all nodes.
If you change all the miners ( with magic ), nodes will not accept new blocks.
If you change all the miners ( that are normal people ), then I'll open my single miner right now and I'll mine all the next blocks 
If you change all the nodes ( with another big magic ), than you will have to change also every miners.
Changing everything with force it's like tring to close the bittorrent network.
The only way to change everything is finding an agreement with everyone that he is using the bitcoin network/system. Good luck  |
Dude, how old are you? You seem to live in a fantasy world.
I am not fighting you on the facts, i just don't see added value in the monetary system (and it is wasting economic resources).
Well, that 'magic' you call it, can happen very easily. First of all, the government can just order ISPs to block anything going through their pipes related to bitcoins. There is no reason to assume that is impossible. Second, those wallet site apparently get hacked relatively frequently. Third, a wallet site can be fishy. What guarantee do I have that a wallet site is not taking the money, putting it into its pocket and running away with it?
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:40 Post subject: |
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| HostFat wrote: |
| DXWarlock wrote: | | OR whats to stop them from just going "OK we figured out we CANT just change the way it works...so we decided to scrap it..start over go get the new files to host the nodes here..and everyone has 0 bitcoins". |
What? I'm not understanding. |
If the founders of it decided that they wanted 50 million bitcoins, what to stop them from abandoning the current project..and starting a new one? what regulations, requirements, and obligations do they have to continue working on the current one? Even if someone picks it up as a opensource project...The one with with fresh "mining bases" will lure the bigtime users from the old one over, reducing the value of the old one to close to nill.
Thats what we are getting at...there is NO regulations on what they can do down the road for it to be considered 'viable currency replacement'.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:43 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: | | DXWarlock wrote: | | OR whats to stop them from just going "OK we figured out we CANT just change the way it works...so we decided to scrap it..start over go get the new files to host the nodes here..and everyone has 0 bitcoins". |
Who stops it? There's no central control. |
But there is no central obligation to those making it to continue working on it..no obligation from its creators to even support it tommrow. No legal or financial responsibility of them even to care what happens if they go "Screw it i'm moving to a shack in the woods and making bitcoin 2.0 everyone that wants to get rich quicker..follow me" basiclly causing everyone that has bitcoins to just loose everything..or most of it.
Until its regulated by some standard enforced by laws..its 'magic fairy money'.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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spankie
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Posts: 2958
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:46 Post subject: |
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| HostFat wrote: | https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Bitcoin_mining_is_a_waste_of_energy_and_harmful_for_ecology
Economic Argument 1
Bitcoin mining is a highly competitive, dynamic, almost perfect, market. Mining rigs can be set up and dismantled almost anywhere in the world with relative ease. Thus, market forces are constantly pushing mining activity to places and times where the marginal price of electricity is low or zero. These electricity products are cheap for a reason. Often it’s because the electricity is difficult (and wasteful) to transport, difficult to store, or because there is low demand and high supply. Using electricity in this way is a lot less wasteful than simply plugging a mining rig into the mains indiscriminately.
For example, Iceland produces an excess of cheap electricity from renewable sources, but it has no way of exporting electricity because of its remote location. It is conceivable that at some point in future Bitcoin mining will only be profitable in places like Iceland, and unprofitable in places like central Europe, where electricity comes mostly from nuclear and fossil sources.
Market forces could even push mining into innovative solutions that have an effective electricity consumption of zero. Mining always produces heat equivalent to the energy consumed - for example, 1000 watts of mining equipment produces the same amount of heat as a 1000 watt heating element used in an electric space heater, hot tub, water heater, or similar appliance. Someone already in a willing position to incur the cost of electricity for its heat value alone could run mining equipment specially designed to mine bitcoins while capturing and utilizing the heat produced, without incurring any energy costs beyond what they already intended to spend on heating.
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Yeah, well that's stretching it a little bit toooo far for me. Energy does not come from nothing, even it's renewable. You could use those efforts for, I dunno, something else? What's next? Building a windmill to generate bitcoins? Or building trees, cut them down, burn them up and use the energy to run a computer to generate bitcoins which can be used to inflate the money supply?
Am I the only one who does not understand it? I've never been a fan of bitcoins, but now knowing that you have to 'mine' to sustain your level of bitcoin wealth, i am baffled, shocked, mind boggled that people are going to such an extent to increase their bitcoin wealth. Step out of it, you can earn real money, and loooaaads more of purchasing power by doing useful stuff with CPU resources...
HostFat, please explain me the use of wasting computer resources to inflate money supply. You could just have bitcoins, and inflate the supply, and stop wasting computer resources? Wouldn't that be, like I dunno, a bit more handy and efficient?
The calculating stuff is just in place to generate non-linear increases in the money supply to have disadvantages when you step in later in the process. Am I going crazy or is that difficult to see? And mining is only handy for hackers that can use 'free electricity' on their hacked rigs, ship the bitcoins back home and convert them into real USD. Is that also difficult to see?
Last edited by spankie on Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:49; edited 1 time in total
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garus
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Posts: 34200
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:47 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:51; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:48 Post subject: |
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| spankie wrote: |
Well, that 'magic' you call it, can happen very easily. First of all, the government can just order ISPs to block anything going through their pipes related to bitcoins. There is no reason to assume that is impossible |
Yes, it's possible, but every government will have to do it.
I'm still waiting that they do it for bittorrent.
( anyway, bitcoin already support proxy/tor connections ... )
| spankie wrote: | | Second, those wallet site apparently get hacked relatively frequently. Third, a wallet site can be fishy. What guarantee do I have that a wallet site is not taking the money, putting it into its pocket and running away with it? |
They have hacked exchangers with insecure hotwallet. ( hotwallet means not crypted )
Bitcoin by design doesn't need to use eWallet, it's a wallet itself.
You have a crypted wallet on you computer that has all private keys that enable you to move bitcoins.
Ewallet services can be useful sometimes if they give some good services, but you aren't forced to use.
Moreover many of these services are becoming also serverless, always connected with double-firm cryptography.
As I said you can stay out by now, because it's still a risky for some uses.
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spankie
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Posts: 2958
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:51 Post subject: |
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So basically it is useful, unless you want to buy something from a shop?
So you can have your coins on your pc, that's safe, you can earn them, that's safe, you can mine them, that's safe? But you can't exchange them on online shops...
What are they useful for? Besides evading sketchy online payment things?
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:52 Post subject: |
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Edit, and it seems I was wrong. My apologies. I could have swore I read long ago that the host nodes only contained, updated, and calculated the exchanges..to compare to a master source to stop double billing..or a version of the 'bittorrent tricker' to make it seems you have higher ratios.
Either I read it wrong, or its changed since then.
But still doesn't mean that someone couldn't make a competitor (or the founders of this one stop updating, and making a new one), giving higher yields, higher payout.
call their new coins "Uberbits" and draw all the big miners to the 'fresh feilds' making every bit of what you had going on, dead in the water..as the new one takes over..and they refuse to 'exchange' your own bitcoins to theirs.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:54 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: | | DXWarlock wrote: | | garus wrote: |
Who stops it? There's no central control. |
But there is no central obligation to those making it to continue working on it..no obligation from its creators to even support it tommrow. No legal or financial responsibility of them even to care what happens if they go "Screw it i'm moving to a shack in the woods and making bitcoin 2.0 everyone that wants to get rich quicker..follow me" basiclly causing everyone that has bitcoins to just loose everything..or most of it.
Until its regulated by some standard enforced by laws..its 'magic fairy money'. |
What can they change in bitcoin now? |
What if the decide they don't like their logic they used for calculation rate per minute, or the 21million cap, or the way the transaction fees work..and decide its easier to start over?
what guarantee to do I have, if I decide to use their money..that it wont be abandoned in a week?
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:59 Post subject: |
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| HostFat wrote: |
All these devs have probably some bitcoins, so I think that it's hard that all of them ( and future devs ) will chose to move away from the project to make a new one.
Anyway, someone is already tring
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=67.0
Anyway, even if many devs will start a new project, they will have to convince all users ( nodes/miners/customers/services ... ) that the new currency is better. |
Why wouldnt they decide to leave? sure they may have some..but hell they can just decide "start over and give ourselves the same value in the new ones"
I Think your missing the point..its not a matter of "well that would be inconvenient for them to do so" ..
its the fact that they can, and if wanting to...would..with not one single legal implication for them doing so.
If someone is asking me "exchange your legal tender, for my made up tender" they better have some legal responsibility behind having to keep their money around.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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garus
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Posts: 34200
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 19:02 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:51; edited 1 time in total
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 19:05 Post subject: |
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| HostFat wrote: | | spankie wrote: | | So basically it is useful, unless you want to buy something from a shop? |
The high risk is that if the services has to automaticaly send out bitcoins.
This is the main security problem of exchangers.
There are many solutions, the problem is that usually exchangers start like an hoppy, something fun, by people that doesn't know much about security.
Many users trust these exchangers without any evidence. ( I do NOT )
Than you see news with big titles 
If you have a shop, you have only to accept them, and not send them out automaticaly.
So you don't need an hotwallet. |
Yes this sounds so much better, simpler, and secure than the current system of "here, I take $5 out of my wallet, and give it to you for that sandwich".
This is why I was saying it wont ever get big without some major changes, and those changes are not guaranteed, or the founders legally responsible to do. No one in large masses are going to go play with fake money, by risking real money to do so hoping it gets popular enough to be legitimate replacement.
First its complicated, cumbersome, and the rube Goldberg of money exchange procedures. And second...these people have not one ramification for doing like above. since its not legal tender.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24643
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Thu, 18th Oct 2012 08:38 Post subject: |
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spankie
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Posts: 2958
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Thu, 18th Oct 2012 09:39 Post subject: |
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HostFat, you still have not answered my question. What is being calculated during the mining process? Are they solving real world problems? Or just hashing some noisy data stuff?
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spankie
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Posts: 2958
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Thu, 18th Oct 2012 13:08 Post subject: |
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Shocking!
What about the following system:
1) Solve real world problem
2) Avoid wasting computer resources...
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Bigperm
Posts: 1908
Location: Alberta,Canada
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| Posted: Thu, 18th Oct 2012 18:05 Post subject: |
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Wow. All this Bitcoin talk. LOL
Thought i was one of the only miners here. I have power included in my apartment (Going through a divorce, temp housing lol) so it a no brainier.
I have a bout 60 coins now, and started mining when they were trading for about $4.00 . Now there trading @ about $12. But this is historically how the market has fluctuated during winter and summer months.
I have had the argument about validity of the currency with my old lab partner from uni. He got me into bitcoins. Its really and endless debate.
But hell, i have 3 computers, doing nothing during the day, so they mine bitcoins. I will probably use them for server space, or play some bitcoin poker. lol Payout in Euros.
| Jenni wrote: | | I drunk. I don't fucking care! |
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24643
Location: Your Mom
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Bigperm
Posts: 1908
Location: Alberta,Canada
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| Posted: Fri, 19th Oct 2012 17:46 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | | Bigperm wrote: | Wow. All this Bitcoin talk. LOL
Thought i was one of the only miners here. I have power included in my apartment (Going through a divorce, temp housing lol) so it a no brainier.
I have a bout 60 coins now, and started mining when they were trading for about $4.00 . Now there trading @ about $12. But this is historically how the market has fluctuated during winter and summer months.
I have had the argument about validity of the currency with my old lab partner from uni. He got me into bitcoins. Its really and endless debate.
But hell, i have 3 computers, doing nothing during the day, so they mine bitcoins. I will probably use them for server space, or play some bitcoin poker. lol Payout in Euros. |
60!? Did you mine solo or with a mining group? And how much time did it take to get those 60 coins?
And power included in the rent?  |
I mine with a group. Slush pool. I just use Gui Miner, and its been working great. Im @ about 800 mhash between 3 computers. Ive been mining for about 7 months i think, maybe 9.
And yes power, AC, heat are all included in my rent.
| Jenni wrote: | | I drunk. I don't fucking care! |
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| Posted: Fri, 19th Oct 2012 17:52 Post subject: |
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I never got into the bitcoin venture, but, as a business, it seems a rather small amount, 60 bitcoins over a span of 8 months, at $12 each, would equal $720.
When making money online, spending time or resources in something that nets you under 3 figures monthly is absurd, in my opinion at least.
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| Posted: Fri, 19th Oct 2012 19:25 Post subject: |
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| Nhiumewyn wrote: | I never got into the bitcoin venture, but, as a business, it seems a rather small amount, 60 bitcoins over a span of 8 months, at $12 each, would equal $720.
When making money online, spending time or resources in something that nets you under 3 figures monthly is absurd, in my opinion at least. |
There are better way to mine, and GPUs are actually the worst. ( search about FPGA/ASIC )
If you want to do business with Bitcoin, it's better you build good services that exploit these features:
- no gov controll ( you can't avoid to ask documents from your users )
- mostly no fees ( good for micro-transactions )
- instant
- no chargeback
- pseudoanonymous
- you can also avoid any registrations sometime ...
Even if you think that this project will fail someday, other people think different.
You can have their bitcoins if you give them some good services/items (ex: http://www.bitmit.net ) , and then convert them instantly to your old common loved fiat money.
So you will avoid any possible risks.
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