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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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 Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 16:09 Post subject: |
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Yes...but the difference is that the current system, even if printed off nothing, from nothing, being 'housed' in banks of nothing..is people have the long standing illusion it is.
The trust of the current currency is already in place..it doesn't need to validate itself, people beleive in it even if there is no reason to..they already do. Bitcoin doesn't have this luxury it has to prove its BETTER than the current one in simple terms and reasons everyone can understand, if it wants to take over it.
I'm looking at it from the standpoint of, say I went to a family member to convince them to use it, I would get a response of:
"So let me understand this..you want me to use a money I never heard of, isn't backed as official currency of any nation, has no tangible items, is generated by random people on their PC, its storage is in some 'cloud based peer network'...whatever that is when you told me about it, I need software installed on my PC or mobile device to access it, and need to do math to figure out daily what its worth compared to what I already use, and what I use already is accepted everywhere already?.....tell me again why I should be using it?"
I'm not trying to belittle it, or say its a bad idea..Its great, I'm saying that the above would be close to the response of 95% of the people I showed it to to try to get them to use it.
And its not just old people..I can think of probably 10 people off the top of my head 30 or younger, that would say close to the same thing to me.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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spankie
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Posts: 2958
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 16:58 Post subject: |
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well, yeah it is total crap money.
People could argue that paper money is worthless as well, but at least i am relatively sure central banks won't start printing money like hell. So the supply is relatively stable and 'restricted'. And indeed it's worth what people want it to be worth, but that's with everything. Why is gold worth so much? Why an iPad? Why not replace gold by moon rocks? or space dust? In the end, everything is 'restricted'... Gold is not the most rare, not the most durable, not the most suited for stockpiling, not the most 'money only' metal or good, yet everybody treats it like that.
Bitcoins is run by some 'organisation' and 'anonymously' etc. Who can legally garantee me that no more than 21million bitcoins will be released? They don't have to go to voters or so, so basically they can pull of some giga scam, and just walk away. Politicians lie and pull of shit, go figure what bitcoin man can do if he smells money and has no voters to take care off...
Secondly, everybody knows that the maximum is 21million and the timeframe wherein they will become available. Hence, it's like a race to take a share of the cake, just like the goldrush by the Spanish in South-America. You don't create value with the system, you just steal from someone else. "if i don't create the coins, someone else will'. It's like fishing in the sea. People do retarded shit, the ultimate race to retardedness. They all have hyper sophisticated boats, but everybody has it, and ultimately they all fish 10 fishes and make no profit. What a waste of resources! Read a lot on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Imagine you have 10btc and there are 10million coins in circulation. You are forced to earn another 10btc to keep value in the 21million system. If you don't earn/mine them, your bitcoins will lose value. It just opens the door to fraud/scam/assymetric behaviour etc. Which is already happening at the moment.
The mining is also just a waste of economic resources. Why would you want people to push push push push on declining returns to generate money supply? Why are they letting people work to inflate the supply? Why not add 1 million a year, flatout? you have 10, well now you have 11, or something similar? Why would i need to waste my time on my crappy machine inflating my resources when i could be way more productive making bread or cars? Yet, i am forced to do so, for reasons mentioned above?
Furthermore, just look at the exchange rate BTC/USD. It goes up and down like a maniac, want to be part of that? Going from 2 to 35 back to 10. Why is that? Well, I can think of some reasons, but i don't actually know it. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. It's quite obvious there is some distortion in both supply and demand which is generating those swings.
But that's why central banks were invented. Central banks typically just 'buy some time' to allow both supply and demand reach equilibrium. Imagine someone *for some reason* wants to buy 1 million bitcoins. If he buys them in 1 block, prices will skyrocket. Would that represent fair value? Of course not, prices would skyrocket, as the buyer absorbs all readily available supply out of the market and market frictions (information lag, liquidity lags etc) prevent people from seizing the opportunity to sell in this transaction. Eventually, there are no sellers left, prices go through the roof. Then some time later, people turn on their computer and see the market price, so they go 'woop die woop' and start selling like maniacs. Either they sell assets to get BTC cash, they dig it from the earth or whatever, but it takes time and effort to get liquid BTCs. After some time, liquidity comes back, BTCs are sold like hell and eventually equilibrium will restore. Where will the equilibrium be? Probably above the equilibrium price from the past, there was a big buyer after all.
What's the role of the central bank now? Well, just - temporarily - issue BTCs to allow the big buyer to exercise it's transaction at a fair price. Then the central bank slowly buys back the excess issued BTCs from the market at market prices. If the central bank did issue the BTCs at a fair price, it can buy them back and be break-even. Net result? smooth transaction, money supply stable and everybody much happier.
As long as people rely on pure market forces to have optimal situations, well, dream on. This will never work. It's just like the US gold standards from the past. Inflation was the same or higher than today, output volatility was higher than today, FX volatility was higher than today, and there was a great depression in the 1930 and a hyperinflation in the 70 and a huge recession in the 80s.
Last edited by spankie on Wed, 17th Oct 2012 17:07; edited 1 time in total
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 17:07 Post subject: |
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| HostFat wrote: | Many people were used to say the same thing about Steam.
There are android apps come with realtime value showed directly while you are writing the bitcoins number.
I'm not saying that this will be easy and available for everyone in the next year, but everyone that will start using them will get early all the good features and possibilities that this new currency is giving 
No one is forced to use them, no one will force you ... but I "suggest" everyone to give a little look  |
Saying that many people use to say that about an optional, hobby based program to launch game software like steam., and comparing it to what most consider the most substantial, life controlling, symbol of worth in this world..is stretching it a bit.
I've been watching it for a while, and until its past the point of being like folding at home is, for making mining farms and a novelty of getting to play with some webbased toy that a couple of places accept because its "kinda fun to try"...I don't really have any interest in investing time or money into it.
Until it comes to a point where that money actually means something is recognized by people outside the bitcoin craze, and has some backing, foundation, and grounding to to make it somewhat credible as a form that cant just got 'poof' its no longer around...
To me its nothing more than say, having quirky idea of "Hey I got an idea, we make these special pink triangles of paper...anyone can join our club and can use them as money, and give a value of each based to give it a monetary value. And anyone in our club that runs a business, can accept them as money...we all know its not 'real money' so to speak, as recognized by anyone outside out loop...but we can pretend it is".
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 17:14 Post subject: |
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| spankie wrote: | | well, yeah it is total crap money. |
bad start
| spankie wrote: | | People could argue that paper money is worthless as well, but at least i am relatively sure central banks won't start printing money like hell. So the supply is relatively stable and 'restricted'. And indeed it's worth what people want it to be worth.. |
There are many that said this is the main problem in US. Fed is printing too much money out of anything.
| spankie wrote: | | Bitcoins is run by some 'organisation' and 'anonymously' etc. Who can legally garantee me that no more than 21million bitcoins will be released? They don't have to go to voters or so, so basically they can pull of some giga scam, and just walk away. |
This is false, you should go back to study.
I can't argue an opinion based on false fact 
There isn't any organisation.
| spankie wrote: | | Secondly, everybody knows that the maximum is 21million and the timeframe wherein they will become available. Hence, it's like a race to take a share of the cake, just like the goldrush by the Spanish in South-America. You don't create value with the system, you just steal from someone else. |
If you want the money from somone esle, give him services or products. It's better than stealing 
Are you stealing paper money from other people when your wallet is empty?
| spankie wrote: | | Imagine you have 10btc and there are 10million coins in circulation. You are forced to earn another 10btc to keep value in the 21million system. If you don't earn/mine them, your bitcoins will lose value. It just opens the door to fraud/scam/assymetric behaviour etc. |
Why do they lose value?
The value is mainly a result of supply and demand.
| spankie wrote: | | Furthermore, just look at the exchange rate BTC/USD. It goes up and down like a maniac, want to be part of that? Going from 2 to 35 back to 10. Why is that? Well, I can think of some reasons, but i don't actually know it. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. It's quite obvious there is some distortion in both supply and demand which is generating those swings. |
It simple. It was ( and still ) a small market.
So it was easy to maneuver but more there anything, it's easy to generate bubbles.
More heavy it will become, less bubbles it will have.
| spankie wrote: | | But that's why central banks were invented. Central banks typically just 'buy some time' to allow both supply and demand reach equilibrium. Imagine someone *for some reason* wants to buy 1 million bitcoins. If he buys them in 1 block, prices will skyrocket. Would that represent fair value? Of course not, prices would skyrocket, as the buyer absorbs all readily available supply out of the market and market frictions (information lag, liquidity lags etc) prevent people from seizing the opportunity to sell in this transaction. Eventually, there are no sellers left, prices go through the roof. Then some time later, people turn on their computer and see the market price, so they go 'woop die woop' and start selling like maniacs. Either they sell assets to get BTC cash, they dig it from the earth or whatever, but it takes time and effort to get liquid BTCs. After some time, liquidity comes back, BTCs are sold like hell and eventually equilibrium will restore. Where will the equilibrium be? Probably above the equilibrium price from the past, there was a big buyer after all. |
This is still a problem about how much big the market is.
If you think that "now" it is too risky, than stay out, and wait for a better time.
Torrentfreak team seems that have a different opinion about it.
| spankie wrote: | | It's just like the US gold standards from the past. Inflation was the same or higher than today, output volatility was higher than today, FX volatility was higher than today, and there was a great depression in the 1930 and a hyperinflation in the 70 and a huge recession in the 80s. |
US abandoned gold standard because it was impossible to finance wars
Last edited by HostFat on Wed, 17th Oct 2012 17:20; edited 1 time in total
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 17:15 Post subject: |
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| spankie wrote: |
Bitcoins is run by some 'organisation' and 'anonymously' etc. Who can legally garantee me that no more than 21million bitcoins will be released? They don't have to go to voters or so, so basically they can pull of some giga scam, and just walk away. Politicians lie and pull of shit, go figure what bitcoin man can do if he smells money and has no voters to take care off...
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This is also another problem I have with it..one of its appeals is to take the control of money out of govt hands......so we can put it in a few other guys hands that made this up?
To me, if I was one of the founders, ID be pushing like hell to...think about it, you make up some idea for new money..require no physical backing on it, pick a random number for the max amount that can be made, then wait while people 'farmville' your coins like crazy for you. Wait 10 years, and retire as the richest man in the world..as you and the founders of this organization now controls every bit of money in the world once it takes over. Even if you dont have actual control of the peer networks by its very nature...you ARE the man that founded the idea, and have say in what happens. You could decide:
"Ok now that all the 21 million are farmed...and a max value established...Im creating 3 million more, giving them to myself and the other chairmen of bitcoin.com...whos going to stop me?"
Right now with no regulation on it, no world say or care on how its created or its worth...its a bunch of people mining for monopoly money that only the others that use it consider worth anything..nothing outside that sphere has any say or impact on its value.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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spankie
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Posts: 2958
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 17:22 Post subject: |
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And by the way. Why would you even want a single currency worldwide?
Basically, you then end up in a more filosophical question, but let me try to explain it.
I think we can agree that the purpose of life is
1) to enjoy a happy life and maximize welfare personally
2) try to maximize others people welfare once my needs are completely satisfied
3) try to improve others people welfare tremendously when i need to sacrifice almost nothing.
Some clarification on point 3. Imagine you earn 1trillion a year and someone else 1 dollar a year. Would you consume your trillionth dollar or double the wealth of the poor guy? I know i would and i am not an especially caring person. What's the tipping point? me earning 100million, another guy 10, and i am giving away 1 dollar? Everybody has a tipping point somewhere. I am not going to give my 2000th euro i earn a month to someone who earns 1500 a month. My decline in 'happiness' does not compensate his increase in happiness. all right, that being said.
Now imagine we have euros, america has dollars and japan has yens. We all have floating exchange rates. We all have strong economies. Now, suddenly and completely unexpected, an earthquake hits Japan. What will happen? Japan's economy will start to suffer. Lower demand for investment money, uncertainty, people will hoard money, anywayz, the only solution is a lower interest rate. Lower interests will force people to consume, will spur investments and will push the economy to recovery. Lower interest rates mean lower demand for the currency, right? If i get 2% in USA and 1% in Japan, i will pull back my yens, convert them to USD and invest them in the USA. Net result, demand USD up, demand Yen down. USD goes up, yen goes down.
But what does that actually mean in real terms? It means that part of the misery of Japan is exported to the rest of the world. Japan can export cheaper, their economy will boom, eventually demand will restore and the currency will restore itself. It's basically a shock absorber for misery. It's not A shock absorber, it's THE shock absorber. It's like having a fire insurance. You put all the misery of a burning house (i.e your house value becoming 0) in one pool and you share the misery (i.e. you pay insurance premium). It makes you sleep well at night.
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 17:22 Post subject: |
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| HostFat wrote: | @DXWarlock
One example where it is useful to me:
I can't use my CC to buy from Steam with russian prices, it's blocked and risky.
So I buy WMR (webmoney) from exchanger with my bitcoin, than I do the usually thing with VPN.
It's really cheaper and less risky than buying WMR with CC or other things, and faster also.
This is just an example, but you "go deeper" you will probably find other interesting way to save money by using bitcoin.
Good luck |
But the time I spend working with 2 currencies, offsets what I see as a 'value' of saving money..
same reason I don't cut coupons..Sure I can save money..but having to do extra work to save 50 cents isn't worth it to me.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 17:31 Post subject: |
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Again, Im not downing it. IF it works for you or others great.
But again, until it gets past the point of "OK all of us here in the club agree this monopoly money works between us as real money" and the idea that its controlled by one central party of people that can change the rules as they please..(sure users can get upset and kick and scream they changed the rules..but they would have no legal actions to take for it...unlike world economy currencies that are interconnected)
I cant see trusting it beyond a 'gimmick of agreements between those that use it'.
Say I invested in buying $6000 of bitcoins today...and they deiced to shutdown bitcoin next week..what legal action do I have to get my $6000 back, what enforcement worldwide is in place to make them stand good on their claims of monetary value based on a universally agreed upon exchange rate between nations for it? I mean I can sue them I guess..but thats not a 'legal action' so to speak, thats a civil suit. Which means I can lose.
Much like pirateat40, ran off with TONS of bitcoins...they can do noting about it..its like running off with a WoW clans clan bank storage, it has no value as a whole in the real world, its just virtual items people agree is worth something to them...they can be mad, but he didn't steal anything 'real' as the world sees it.
A store could say that they accept "WoW gold as payment" it doesnt make it anymore of a real currency..
Someone steal all my bitcoins, I can do as much (as in nothing) as I could for some guy stealing all my gear out of the clan vault in a game.
So until the day that bitcoins have more legal standing in court disputes over them, than my full set of epic gear in an MMO..Its the same thing to me.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Wed, 17th Oct 2012 17:41; edited 2 times in total
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24643
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 17:42 Post subject: |
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I've used bitminer to mine for bitcoins with Triplemining using my O/C'd 7950, reaching 580Mhashes/s. It takes forever to get any bitcoin of worth.
Current balance:
€ 10.83
1.18271132 BTC
That took like 2 weeks. Probably spent more on electricity than the gain. It was a fun experiment but as Sabin said, it's similar to a ponzi scheme in that early adopters got flooded with bitcoins (and the value of a bitcoin was much much higher). Now bitcoins are worth very little and it takes ridiculous amount of work to get anything out of it. You can have your 7950 work 77 hours and get 0.2 bitcoins.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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garus
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Posts: 34200
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 17:52 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:51; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 17:57 Post subject: |
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https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#It.27s_a_giant_ponzi_scheme
| Quote: | In a Ponzi Scheme, the founders persuade investors that they’ll profit. Bitcoin does not make such a guarantee. There is no central entity, just individuals building an economy.
A ponzi scheme is a zero sum game. In a ponzi scheme, early adopters can only profit at the expense of late adopters, and the late adopters always lose. Bitcoin has an expected win-win outcome. Early and present adopters profit from the rise in value as Bitcoins become better understood and in turn demanded by the public at large. All adopters benefit from the usefulness of a reliable and widely-accepted decentralized peer-to-peer currency. |
( sorry for my bad english )
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:00 Post subject: |
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I'm sorry HostFat, I know you're a big fan of BitCoin - but no matter how they dress it up; it DOES seem like a Ponzi Scheme. Early adopters got to mine Bitcoins in huge amount then it got progressively harder as time went on, which means latecomers now have to work 3 to 4 times as hard to get the same results as those at the start. Those who hoarded Bitcoin from the start now profit in a big way.
Like I said; I like the idea, I dislike the implementation - 77hrs work for 0.2BC is both hilarious and sad. Frant is right; you spend SIGNIFICANTLY more on power bills than you actually earn from mining.
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:04 Post subject: |
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I think that Ponzi is the wrong word then.
By following the meaning that you are giving to the "ponzi" word, also gold is a ponzi.
It's harder and harder to find gold after the few day that someone find a vein.
More people will come to mine and it will get harder and harder ...
| Quote: | | Like I said; I like the idea, I dislike the implementation - 77hrs work for 0.2BC is both hilarious and sad. Frant is right; you spend SIGNIFICANTLY more on power bills than you actually earn from mining. |
A good miner comes with explosives ( FPGA/ASIC ) instead of simple pick ( GPU )
( sorry for my bad english )
Last edited by HostFat on Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:05; edited 1 time in total
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spankie
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Posts: 2958
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:05 Post subject: |
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| HostFat wrote: | | spankie wrote: | | well, yeah it is total crap money. |
bad start |
Maybe, dunno
| HostFat wrote: | | spankie wrote: | | People could argue that paper money is worthless as well, but at least i am relatively sure central banks won't start printing money like hell. So the supply is relatively stable and 'restricted'. And indeed it's worth what people want it to be worth.. |
There are many that said this is the main problem in US. Fed is printing too much money out of anything. |
Yeah, well, just look up velocity of money, outputgap~ inflation, M3 money supply etc. But that's a whole different story. Just to make it short, I don't think it is a huge problem at the moment as all the excess supply is not transmitting to the economy. Inflation will not accelerate before ~ 2016 or so. Even if it were to, central bank can very simply pull it back from the market. Anyway, bad place to discuss this.
| HostFat wrote: | | spankie wrote: | | Bitcoins is run by some 'organisation' and 'anonymously' etc. Who can legally garantee me that no more than 21million bitcoins will be released? They don't have to go to voters or so, so basically they can pull of some giga scam, and just walk away. |
This is false, you should go back to study.
I can't argue an opinion based on false fact
There isn't any organisation. |
It certainly did not come falling from the sky out of nothing. Someone designed it, someone is running the servers (distributed stil means multiple persons), someone decided to put it at 21million BTC by 2033. If someone can decide to put the maximum at 21million, someone can put it at 100million by 2013.
| HostFat wrote: | | spankie wrote: | | Secondly, everybody knows that the maximum is 21million and the timeframe wherein they will become available. Hence, it's like a race to take a share of the cake, just like the goldrush by the Spanish in South-America. You don't create value with the system, you just steal from someone else. |
If you want the money from somone esle, give him services or products. It's better than stealing
Are you stealing paper money from other people when your wallet is empty? |
You missed the point in this paragraph. In the real world i exchange money with someone when i buy something. In bitcoin world i can increase the total amount of money by farming. This eventually means that money supply would increase even if nobody was producing anything. Imagine a hypothetical world with no farms, no factories, nothing at all. Just some computers were running and calculating. Money supply would increase, i could still earn money but i produce nothing for society.
| HostFat wrote: | | spankie wrote: | | Imagine you have 10btc and there are 10million coins in circulation. You are forced to earn another 10btc to keep value in the 21million system. If you don't earn/mine them, your bitcoins will lose value. It just opens the door to fraud/scam/assymetric behaviour etc. |
Why do they lose value?
The value is mainly a result of supply and demand. |
If you don't see it that money loses it values when the supply doubles, there is not much to discuss. Imagine i have 5BTC and the total supply is 10BTC. Then i can buy half of the world, right? Now imagine i have no mining capacities, but do can make breads and cars. by the way I do hope you agree that mining is not really 'producing a good'. What the fuck is the world with some computers doing some random shit. By the way 2, i do hope they are calculating useful stuff and not some random mathematical problem to keep you occupied... So what happens? The miner gets money, can buy my stuff, and eventually is just siphoning my efforts away by doing nothing itself. And imagine i do not sell to miners, but total money supply does go to 20TBC, i am left with 5TBC which can only buy 1/4 of the world. Clearly my wealth in real terms has gone down.
| HostFat wrote: | | spankie wrote: | | Furthermore, just look at the exchange rate BTC/USD. It goes up and down like a maniac, want to be part of that? Going from 2 to 35 back to 10. Why is that? Well, I can think of some reasons, but i don't actually know it. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. It's quite obvious there is some distortion in both supply and demand which is generating those swings. |
It simple. It was ( and still ) a small market.
So it was easy to maneuver but more there anything, it's easy to generate bubbles.
More heavy it will become, less bubbles it will have. |
Yeah, well if you can corner a market like that, good luck. Taking away 90% of wealth in a couple of months, does not sound like a plan to get your desired broad market...
| HostFat wrote: | | spankie wrote: | | But that's why central banks were invented. Central banks typically just 'buy some time' to allow both supply and demand reach equilibrium. Imagine someone *for some reason* wants to buy 1 million bitcoins. If he buys them in 1 block, prices will skyrocket. Would that represent fair value? Of course not, prices would skyrocket, as the buyer absorbs all readily available supply out of the market and market frictions (information lag, liquidity lags etc) prevent people from seizing the opportunity to sell in this transaction. Eventually, there are no sellers left, prices go through the roof. Then some time later, people turn on their computer and see the market price, so they go 'woop die woop' and start selling like maniacs. Either they sell assets to get BTC cash, they dig it from the earth or whatever, but it takes time and effort to get liquid BTCs. After some time, liquidity comes back, BTCs are sold like hell and eventually equilibrium will restore. Where will the equilibrium be? Probably above the equilibrium price from the past, there was a big buyer after all. |
This is still a problem about how much big the market is.
If you think that "now" it is too risky, than stay out, and wait for a better time.
Torrentfreak team seems that have a different opinion about it. |
Well, i might stay out a little longer. More like longer to infinity...
| HostFat wrote: | | spankie wrote: | | It's just like the US gold standards from the past. Inflation was the same or higher than today, output volatility was higher than today, FX volatility was higher than today, and there was a great depression in the 1930 and a hyperinflation in the 70 and a huge recession in the 80s. |
US abandoned gold standard because it was impossible to finance wars |
First of all, that's not correct. I could argue with a boutade and say 'since paper money the world became a lot more peaceful'. So apparently, when gold was around, it was possible to finance wars...
You could argue that Bretton Woods was repelled because of the Vietnam war, but actually i don't buy it, it was more because of the bad design and bad policy in the USA. But the gold standard in 1930 was certainly not repelled because of the war. Buuuut, because of the depression in the 30s. Couldn't keep defending the exchange rate with real prices plummeting
What's the problem with gold? You can't tailor it to the economic situation. You need to expand and shrink your money supply to your total amount of produced goods. Why? If your economy goes up up up and your total amount of money stays the same. You can buy more with 1 coin. If your economy craters, you can buy less with that coin. It's annoying, it takes away the pricing system, it confuses people. Well, yeah, i am not going to write more about it, i could go on for hours here and i am going home now 
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:07 Post subject: |
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| HostFat wrote: | I think that Ponzi is the wrong word then.
By following the meaning that you are giving to the "ponzi" word, also gold is a ponzi.
It's harder and harder to find gold after the few day that someone find a vein.
More people will come to mine and it will get harder and harder ...
| Quote: | | Like I said; I like the idea, I dislike the implementation - 77hrs work for 0.2BC is both hilarious and sad. Frant is right; you spend SIGNIFICANTLY more on power bills than you actually earn from mining. |
A good miner comes with explosives ( FPGA/ASIC ) instead of simple pick ( GPU ) |
So spend a around 6 grand on a machine to do it (need a dedicated one 24/7 to make money worth it), so that you can get a 0 netsum gain on your investment on the machine in as little as 4 years!
So by your own definition then bitcoin will die..much like gold mining.
Mine found, many early guys get loads of gold, later people come and get less..and repeat until its not worth mining and dried up...so no return on investment..and they move on.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:09; edited 1 time in total
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spankie
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Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:08 Post subject: |
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| HostFat wrote: | I think that Ponzi is the wrong word then.
By following the meaning that you are giving to the "ponzi" word, also gold is a ponzi.
It's harder and harder to find gold after the few day that someone find a vein.
More people will come to mine and it will get harder and harder ...
| Quote: | | Like I said; I like the idea, I dislike the implementation - 77hrs work for 0.2BC is both hilarious and sad. Frant is right; you spend SIGNIFICANTLY more on power bills than you actually earn from mining. |
A good miner comes with explosives ( FPGA/ASIC ) instead of simple pick ( GPU ) |
Yeah, well that's why they consider gold a 'true money system', which i btw disagree on, as it is 'restricted' and 'limited'. There isn't really a point in fleeing to gold to 'preserve real wealth' in times of inflation if you just can pull it out of the ground everywhere... That's why they used gold as a gold standard in the beginning. It collapsed the first time btw with the gold rush in California in the 19th century, because of the excess supply all of a sudden...
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spankie
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:18 Post subject: |
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I mean its a good way. like in his example.. to exchange the real currencies of the world, for other types. but its just a medium to do so that's only enforced by the ones that use it, not an actual currency in itself.
Its like trading purple gear in wow, for gold coins using a 3rd party web site. its a 'widget' of arbitrary value that both you and the guy you are exchanging RUS coins for US coins agrees is worth "x" for both of you.
Everyone on the forums here could decide used condoms are worth $5 US dollars..I could write spankie and say "hey man, if I give you 5 used condoms..you will give me $25 US worth of euros? then he could turn around and trade those to someone else here for whatever its equal to in their real money...
but the condoms themselves, beyond the members here that agree to treat them as valuable..have no real world exchange value.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:21 Post subject: |
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https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths#Bitcoin_mining_is_a_waste_of_energy_and_harmful_for_ecology
| Quote: | No more so than the wastefulness of mining gold out of the ground, melting it down and shaping it into bars, and then putting it back underground again. Not to mention the building of big fancy buildings, the waste of energy printing and minting all the various fiat currencies, the transportation thereof in armored cars by no less than two security guards for each who could probably be doing something more productive, etc.
As far as mediums of exchange go, Bitcoin is actually quite economical of resources, compared to others.
Economic Argument 1
Bitcoin mining is a highly competitive, dynamic, almost perfect, market. Mining rigs can be set up and dismantled almost anywhere in the world with relative ease. Thus, market forces are constantly pushing mining activity to places and times where the marginal price of electricity is low or zero. These electricity products are cheap for a reason. Often it’s because the electricity is difficult (and wasteful) to transport, difficult to store, or because there is low demand and high supply. Using electricity in this way is a lot less wasteful than simply plugging a mining rig into the mains indiscriminately.
For example, Iceland produces an excess of cheap electricity from renewable sources, but it has no way of exporting electricity because of its remote location. It is conceivable that at some point in future Bitcoin mining will only be profitable in places like Iceland, and unprofitable in places like central Europe, where electricity comes mostly from nuclear and fossil sources.
Market forces could even push mining into innovative solutions that have an effective electricity consumption of zero. Mining always produces heat equivalent to the energy consumed - for example, 1000 watts of mining equipment produces the same amount of heat as a 1000 watt heating element used in an electric space heater, hot tub, water heater, or similar appliance. Someone already in a willing position to incur the cost of electricity for its heat value alone could run mining equipment specially designed to mine bitcoins while capturing and utilizing the heat produced, without incurring any energy costs beyond what they already intended to spend on heating.
Economic Argument 2
When the environmental costs of mining are considered, they need to be weighed up against the benefits. If you question Bitcoin on the grounds that it consumes electricity, then you should also ask questions like this: Will Bitcoin promote economic growth by freeing up trade? Will this speed up the rate of technological innovation? Will this lead to faster development of green technologies? Will Bitcoin enable new, border crossing smart grid technologies? …
Dismissal of Bitcoin because of its costs, while ignoring its benefits, is a dishonest argument. In fact, any environmental argument of this type is dishonest, not just pertaining to Bitcoin. Along similar lines, it could be argued that wind turbines are bad for the environment because making the steel structure consumes energy. |
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:25 Post subject: |
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| HostFat wrote: | | spankie wrote: | | It certainly did not come falling from the sky out of nothing. Someone designed it, someone is running the servers (distributed stil means multiple persons), someone decided to put it at 21million BTC by 2033. If someone can decide to put the maximum at 21million, someone can put it at 100million by 2013. |
Look, we can have a different opinion about economy etc.
But you still have a false information about all the Bitcoin network is working.
To change a rule on the network you will need to change all miners and all nodes.
If you change all the miners ( with magic ), nodes will not accept new blocks.
If you change all the miners ( that are normal people ), then I'll open my single miner right now and I'll mine all the next blocks
If you change all the nodes ( with another big magic ), than you will have to change also every miners.
Changing everything with force it's like tring to close the bittorrent network.
The only way to change everything is finding an agreement with everyone that he is using the bitcoin network/system. Good luck |
And what regulations, and world policies that are enforceable are in place to stop them...as much work as it would be...who could stop them if the decided to?
I don't think you grasp the concept of databases, and programming. Since its only 'peer based' in where the processing is being done..NOT where the data is stored. its stored in the blocks in a system that is interlinking. and can be push updated from a master node.
bittorrent works because there is no NEED for a central collection on data of what each torrent is doing...so you cant modify it as its self sustaining nodes. in bitcoin you need data verification WAY beyond simple upload/download ratio cheat detection ( and that's calculated per torrent).
Best way to put it...say bittorrent was only useful for one file..everyone was torrenting the same file since it was made. And that file has to be checked against a host file for modifications to the code...of course if the code is found to be changed on one clients, it updates against the hive file...
so here..they decide to just edit the hive master file.....and boom. everyones data is now different, as when there is differences, the master file wins and changes yours to match.
Anyway Im getting off track..we ARENT saying its hard to do to change it..we are pointing that there is NOTHING in place legally from stopping them from doing it...making every bit of real money you put into it...useless.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:32 Post subject: |
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OR whats to stop them from just going "OK we figured out we CANT just change the way it works...so we decided to scrap it..start over go get the new files to host the nodes here..and everyone has 0 bitcoins".
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:34 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't think you grasp the concept of databases, and programming. Since its only 'peer based' in where the processing is being done..NOT where the data is stored. its stored in the blocks in a system that is interlinking. and can be push updated from a master node. |
There isn't any master node.
Blocks has some rules.
This rules are "hard-coded" in the client and mining software.
They don't come from someone else.
If a miner create a new block with rules different from the hard-coded in the other miners, this block will not be accepted.
To change this you have to go in every home of every miners and ask them to shut down and install a new software.
As I said, these rules are also hard-coded in client software.
So if you force all miners to change the protocol, than you have to force all nodes LOL.
If you install the Bitcoin-Qt software ( it's the official client, but there are more and more to come ), then you are already a node.
| DXWarlock wrote: | | OR whats to stop them from just going "OK we figured out we CANT just change the way it works...so we decided to scrap it..start over go get the new files to host the nodes here..and everyone has 0 bitcoins". |
What? I'm not understanding.
( sorry for my bad english )
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Oct 2012 18:37 Post subject: |
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| HostFat wrote: | Will Bitcoin promote economic growth by freeing up trade? Will this speed up the rate of technological innovation? Will this lead to faster development of green technologies? Will Bitcoin enable new, border crossing smart grid technologies? …
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I agree sabin, its a bit sales pitch sounding, as SLIGHTLY biased in its assumptions there.
Id say, no, no, no, and no to all 4 of those.
If the current demands for these things for the other 50,000 reasons isn't enough, people farming virtual coins at home in their spare time isn't going to 'drive it faster to happen' 
Its like saying "10 million players play World of Warcraft, will that power draw increase of new PC's made to play it speed up the rate of technological innovation? Will this lead to faster development of green technologies? Will it enable new, border crossing smart grid technologies? …"
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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