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Frant
King's Bounty
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 Posted: Wed, 5th Sep 2012 23:49 Post subject: |
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That's why we don't have a direct democracy, but a representative one.
Furthermore, the title is misleading. Scientists never said anything of the sort.
Finally, let's just entertain and analyze the idea, as if it wasn't bullshit: hundreds of years ago, people were provably dumber than they are today (lower IQ, lack of schooling, etc...). And yet, democracy has flourished since those times. If people today are too dumb for democracy, and people today are on average smarter than their predecessors, then how did democracy survive until now?
Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly
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Frant
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| Posted: Wed, 5th Sep 2012 23:56 Post subject: |
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Because we haven't come up with something better. And the whole raising democracy to the skies as some kind of salvation... really... It's a tool, a way to decide what people shall rule the country. The average Joe on the street have no idea what a good or bad idea is and can only go by mega-shows with celebrities telling them what to do. Democracy in it's current form, esp. in USA, is flawed.
Did you read the article to understand why they reached that conclusion?
| Quote: | “Very smart ideas are going to be hard for people to adopt, because most people don’t have the sophistication to recognize how good an idea is,” Dunning told Life’s Little Mysteries.
What’s worse is that with incompetence comes the illusion of superiority. |
Perhaps we should reform democracy so that every registered voter is required to go a 2-4 week course before every election where the alternatives are laid out, what politics and ideologies will lead to etc.. Simply require a certain level of education about what they're voting for before being allowed to vote. And get rid of the person cult with lying politicians buying voters with rockstar tactics. Voting for a new government should never be about which candidate have the most money to run the biggest and most impressive campaign, it should be all about the ideas, the political issues and the ideology.
The US have the worst kind of campaign crap I've ever seen, and it's escalated since the 40'ies to ridiculous heights where braindead people like Bush Jr could become president because of PR campaigns.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 00:13 Post subject: |
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That has to be one of the greatest piles of shit I have ever read on a blog, I'm sorry. It's very shallow, and scientists said no such thing.
It's just another blogger trying to seem very original, very "on the edge" ... etc. Seen it before, bored of such posts.
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 00:14 Post subject: |
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| tainted4ever wrote: | | then how did democracy survive until now? |
What do you mean it's not like we have an immediately superior alternative to it. |
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 00:15 Post subject: |
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well USA isnt a democracy for starters, and you got 2 choices after that that are the biggest issues USA faces : A. gay marriage and B. 3% tax increase on the rich or not.
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 00:20 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | | Because we haven't come up with something better. And the whole raising democracy to the skies as some kind of salvation... really... It's a tool, a way to decide what people shall rule the country. The average Joe on the street have no idea what a good or bad idea is and can only go by mega-shows with celebrities telling them what to do. Democracy in it's current form, esp. in USA, is flawed. |
Bullshit. Yes, democracy is a tool, and since Roman times we know, that it's basically two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner, but to say it's worst in the USA is simply ignorance. I have followed all political campaigns of the past 8-10 years in western Europe and the USA as well, and my informed conclusion is, that it is in the US, where issues are present most in discussions about elections. I have in fact come away from the UK election, as the worst, most shallow.
It's just this reflex, like, ooh, if it's decadence, then it's USA. That's utter unfounded bullshit, and I'm sick of it already. Most things are much, much worse in the EU - starting with the bureaucracy.
| Quote: | Perhaps we should reform democracy so that every registered voter is required to go a 2-4 week course before every election where the alternatives are laid out, what politics and ideologies will lead to etc.. Simply require a certain level of education about what they're voting for before being allowed to vote. And get rid of the person cult with lying politicians buying voters with rockstar tactics. Voting for a new government should never be about which candidate have the most money to run the biggest and most impressive campaign, it should be all about the ideas, the political issues and the ideology.
The US have the worst kind of campaign crap I've ever seen, and it's escalated since the 40'ies to ridiculous heights where braindead people like Bush Jr could become president because of PR campaigns. |
Same thing I said before, and to think Bush Jr was braindead is even more of the same type of ignorance ... Made bad decisions? Yes. Horrible orator? Yes. Horrible president? On the same level as Obama (pretty bad). But braindead? Far from it.
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Frant
King's Bounty
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Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 00:30 Post subject: |
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It's my opinions, take it or leave it.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 00:38 Post subject: |
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Bush isn't braindead otherwise he wouldn't be able to talk and walk. But he is an unparallelled idiot, Obama is way better.
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zipfero
Posts: 8938
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 00:49 Post subject: |
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I agree with some of the things you're saying, but I want to take a moment and play devil's advocate. I'm not doing this to be pigheaded/difficult, I merely want to point out how complicated an issue this is 
| Quote: | | Because we haven't come up with something better. And the whole raising democracy to the skies as some kind of salvation... really... It's a tool, a way to decide what people shall rule the country. The average Joe on the street have no idea what a good or bad idea is and can only go by mega-shows with celebrities telling them what to do. Democracy in it's current form, esp. in USA, is flawed. |
I can't say much here that hasn't been said already by Winston Churchill:
| Quote: | | It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. |
http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/364.html
| Quote: | | The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter. |
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/the_best_argument_against_democracy_is_a_five/12438.html
The argument you're bringing forth is not new, and is not a new trend that is just now gaining attention. Indeed, it was much more pronounced in the past, when democracies were just emerging in the Western world. The populations of democratic countries were mostly illiterate, poor, and extremist and deeply conservative in their religious standards. Despite these constraints, democracy has thrived in Western countries. This is because democracy is much more resilient and adaptive than you give it credit for.
Furthermore, the general population of the USA today is just as dumb as it was 100 years ago. Nay, 100 years ago it was worse. Votes were bought, elections were rigged, and politicians were openly corrupt. The average American was malnourished and uneducated. The America of today is heaven in comparison, in pretty much every single way, including politics.
The reason American politics get such a bad rap today is because we live in an interconnected society. 40 years ago no one in Sweden had any idea what American elections looked like, beyond what they read in their newspapers. Today you can go to Youtube and look up the antics of Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin with a single click. In such an interconnected world, idiocy is much more easily exposed and ridiculed.
Another reason people are so actively criticizing America is the disproportionate amount of power and influence we have in the world. It's been said that the entire world should be allowed to vote in the American presidential election. People are probably grabbing at their hair as we elect the likes of Bush and proceed to invade and bomb innocent countries. With this sad state of affairs, people are much more prone to pay attention to American politics.
However, people need to realize that American politics, and politics in general, will always be this way. Slimy, scummy, misleading, and generally unpleasant. It's not that Americans (and American politics by extension) got dumb overnight. It's always been this way, it's merely just more exposed than it was in the past.
Does this make American politics flawed? Arguably yes. But what are the alternatives? A "benevolent dictatorship", ala Mengsk from Starcraft? No  American politics are this way, they always have been this way, they will always be this way, and they are not fatally flawed. Arguably, things are getting better over time (see America 100 years ago), and hopefully in another 100 years they will be better. Democracy is not a silver bullet to all the problems in the world, but it does allow for government to continuously evolve and incrementally better itself over time. That is its strength. And until we find a better system, democracy is all we have.
| Quote: | Did you read the article to understand why they reached that conclusion?
| Quote: | “Very smart ideas are going to be hard for people to adopt, because most people don’t have the sophistication to recognize how good an idea is,” Dunning told Life’s Little Mysteries.
What’s worse is that with incompetence comes the illusion of superiority. |
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I am well aware of Dunning-Kruger  Again, this is the reason we have a representative democracy. If we had a direct democracy (ala California), then it would be a catastrophe. People would be voting on decisions they have no business meddling in, from the budget to foreign policy. Government would be a schizophrenic disaster. See article for more details:
http://www.economist.com/node/18586520
Instead, people vote for the representative they think most able to represent their interests in American government. This representative (will in theory) devote himself to studying the "issues", and voting on what is best in his opinion. If the representative is not an expert in an area that he is expected to vote in, then he may retain a staff to research the issue for him, help him understand it, and guide his decision for that issue. The representative will try to present himself as better than the general population, fit to lead, and ready to defend the interests of the people who voted for him. Thus the representative will handle governing for the people, and the people will be free to lead their everyday lives knowing that competent individual is representing them in their government.
Now there are a billion holes that you could poke in my description of representative democracy. I am well aware that a lot of politicians in America are retarded. I am aware that lobbyists have an unfair amount of influence over representatives. And my answer to you is the same as it was before:
| Quote: | | Does this make American politics flawed? Arguably yes. But what are the alternatives? A "benevolent dictatorship", ala Mengsk from Starcraft? No American politics are this way, they always have been this way, they will always be this way, and they are not fatally flawed. Arguably, things are getting better over time (see America 100 years ago), and hopefully in another 100 years they will be better. Democracy is not a silver bullet to all the problems in the world, but it does allow for government to continuously evolve and incrementally better itself over time. That is its strength. And until we find a better system, democracy is all we have. |
As to the last part of your post:
| Quote: | Perhaps we should reform democracy so that every registered voter is required to go a 2-4 week course before every election where the alternatives are laid out, what politics and ideologies will lead to etc.. Simply require a certain level of education about what they're voting for before being allowed to vote. And get rid of the person cult with lying politicians buying voters with rockstar tactics. Voting for a new government should never be about which candidate have the most money to run the biggest and most impressive campaign, it should be all about the ideas, the political issues and the ideology.
The US have the worst kind of campaign crap I've ever seen, and it's escalated since the 40'ies to ridiculous heights where braindead people like Bush Jr could become president because of PR campaigns. |
Your solution might seem like a good idea on the surface, but lets pick it apart a bit:
First of all, who designs the course? Who audits people who take the course? What prevents the auditors from deliberately discriminating against minorities or people with radical notions? What prevents the course itself from discriminating against minorities or people whose views are outliers? What prevents the course from forcibly shaping people's opinions, so that they may be allowed to vote (such as instilling a notion of what ideas are "good" and what views are "bad")? Who audits the course? Who audits the auditors of the course?
| Quote: | | And get rid of the person cult with lying politicians buying voters with rockstar tactics. Voting for a new government should never be about which candidate have the most money to run the biggest and most impressive campaign, it should be all about the ideas, the political issues and the ideology. |
Iirc Kerry outspent Bush by $100M+ in 2004 and still lost the election. Money doesn't buy you votes in America, and after a certain point the effectiveness of money in a politics campaign exponentially decreases. For example, Romney could have a $2 billion ad budget, and buy up all the airtime in the battleground states, but at most he could swing opinion polls by a few percent. Most people are deep set in their opinions, and aren't going to change them over a few weeks of advertising. Another example: Romney could spend $10 billion in California and buy up all the advertising inventory in California for the next year. And still California would vote for Obama.
Yes I agree with you, the amount of money being thrown around in political campaigns in disturbing, and yes it can change the outcome of an election, but its effect is wildly exaggerated. If you're losing by 5% on the national level, all the money in the world isn't going to help you.
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 00:56 Post subject: |
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Edit. Who cares?
Last edited by tainted4ever on Thu, 6th Sep 2012 01:03; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 01:00 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 01:08 Post subject: |
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Imo they should lower the age limit on vote rights to 16 and have a "vote introduction" course in schools. Basically teaching the students why its important to vote and making them understand that it is their duty as citizens in a democratic state to make their voices heard by voting, even if it is just a abstain vote.
Also teaching them how to question if a fact/statement is true, no matter if it is your favorite party or not and how to sort information that is relevant and not relevant to you.
Think that would improve both how many people vote each election, but maybe also raise the quality of election debates.
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Frant
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 03:25 Post subject: |
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| tainted4ever wrote: | | Edit. Who cares? |
I do.
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zipfero
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Frant
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 04:01 Post subject: |
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Whatever floats your boat.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 04:38 Post subject: |
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I like, how for ONCE someone actually wrote a page and a half reply to a debate and everyone just derails it with cursing and or some stupid comment.
And they say Americans have a small IQ
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Invasor
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 06:57 Post subject: |
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I really don't see why this isn't getting a decent debate. Sure, it isn't news per se (Plato already pointed most of the flaws in democracy thousands of years ago...), but it's still interesting.
IMO it's about a couple of scientists who said the obvious: people need education to make educated choices. Dumb people make dumb choices (which would result in dumb or vile politicians)...
Maybe democracy only works on small places (like many european countries). Maybe it doesn't work at all... What if the majority, even if well educated, just want to do stupid things such as invading another country for whatever stupid reason, at the cost of many lives of it's own people?
The majority can also choose to oppress minorities, etc.
I still like to think that Plato's Kallipolis (spelling?) would be awesome...
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 12:09 Post subject: |
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How is this even close to being world news? It's a subjective piece (which I don't agree with but let's leave it at that) based on erroneous interpretation of research.
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Seron
Posts: 379
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 15:40 Post subject: |
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lol at even moooar anti usa propaganda, a bit surprising the sauce isnt RT this time around however ^^
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 20:26 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | well USA isnt a democracy for starters, and you got 2 choices after that that are the biggest issues USA faces : A. gay marriage and B. 3% tax increase on the rich or not. |
Spoken like someone looking from the outside in. Gay marraige is a "sexy" headline; it however rates demonstrably LOW on the priorities of most Americans, including progressives. In poll after poll - it is "The economy stupid. . ."
"Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend[s]
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 20:47 Post subject: |
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| Dm242 wrote: | Imo they should lower the age limit on vote rights to 16 and have a "vote introduction" course in schools. Basically teaching the students why its important to vote and making them understand that it is their duty as citizens in a democratic state to make their voices heard by voting, even if it is just a abstain vote.
Also teaching them how to question if a fact/statement is true, no matter if it is your favorite party or not and how to sort information that is relevant and not relevant to you.
Think that would improve both how many people vote each election, but maybe also raise the quality of election debates. |
They allready do this during middle-school in the US. Or at least they did in my State when I want to school. For three years nearly the entire curriculum for 'history' class is basically American history, how our political system works, etc.. Further, one is required (at least in my state we were) to pass what I thought was a fairly difficult test. If they don't they get held back a grade.
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 20:52 Post subject: |
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| SpykeZ wrote: | I like, how for ONCE someone actually wrote a page and a half reply to a debate and everyone just derails it with cursing and or some stupid comment.
And they say Americans have a small IQ |
Fairly typical on these forums these days. We used to have decent debates on here. I've noticed many people on this forum have essentially become what they 'hate' so much about America. They read various media sources and generalize it to the extreme. No different then some redneck in the states who has never never crossed the Atlantic and basing his opinion on the European population from second hand opinion.
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 22:01 Post subject: |
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| Mchart wrote: | | SpykeZ wrote: | I like, how for ONCE someone actually wrote a page and a half reply to a debate and everyone just derails it with cursing and or some stupid comment.
And they say Americans have a small IQ |
Fairly typical on these forums these days. We used to have decent debates on here. I've noticed many people on this forum have essentially become what they 'hate' so much about America. They read various media sources and generalize it to the extreme. No different then some redneck in the states who has never never crossed the Atlantic and basing his opinion on the European population from second hand opinion. |
+1
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Sep 2012 22:05 Post subject: |
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| Mchart wrote: | | SpykeZ wrote: | I like, how for ONCE someone actually wrote a page and a half reply to a debate and everyone just derails it with cursing and or some stupid comment.
And they say Americans have a small IQ |
Fairly typical on these forums these days. We used to have decent debates on here. I've noticed many people on this forum have essentially become what they 'hate' so much about America. They read various media sources and generalize it to the extreme. No different then some redneck in the states who has never never crossed the Atlantic and basing his opinion on the European population from second hand opinion. |
HA! So I'm not the only one that noticed that. Call us idiots and brainwashed by media then in turn get their facts from some dipshit British news and act the same exact way.
Double standards these days I tell ya.
Someone commits crime in the US. Stupid American IQ's. Someone does it in Europe. Oh well he had a mental disease, he was desperate. It wasn't his fault! |
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Frant
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