We had the Sex thread but it's now locked. Anyway after being told to shut up or post sources by Mister_s I feel like starting a new thread on the subject. I realise what I wrote in that thread was a big simplification but come on I am not going to write a big story here that will be ignored by many. And I don't like to be told to shut or post sources by a person who doesn't do that himself either.
But basically what I was trying to say you should look at evolution and go from there to try to explain certain (human) behaviour like adultery. The discipline that deals with this is called ethology. Edit: I should mention sociobiology as well here.
iconized wrote:
According to evolution, we guys want to spread our genes as much as possible. This is the reason behind adultery, although lotsa guys don't realise that.
Mister_s wrote:
You're talking about a primal instinct, humans have evolved to a point to where they can control such instincts. If we were still under such control, men would be raping left and right trying to produce offspring.
You're mistaken here, we were talking about adultery (voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband) not about a society that allows possession of women and rape. But interestingly enough all societies that were/are dominated by the three big monotheisms had/have systems in place to allow that.
So what do others think?
Last edited by TSR69 on Wed, 1st Aug 2012 21:37; edited 1 time in total
Adultery is complicated, but lets see do this, a simple question in an imaginary place where there are no laws etc.
Lets say you dont know anything and suddenly you interact with this female and years go by and in the end you have created "love" or a sentimental dependency or whatever you wanna call it. But you love her, love as we know it, years go by and you come across another female that you also find interesting.
You have sex with her or hang out or whatever and you just think its normal since u felt it, and your partner notices it, she feels the same as you do about each other and seeing you give more attention to the other lady or sharing your food or whatever with the other lady has made her jealous or mad, a natural reaction. She gets pissed and adultery or cheating is now hated in her world.
Either way one of them will be the most interesting or one who you give more attention or food or help, and the other one will wish for it and wont get it, hence the natural reaction of rejection or jealousy.
Whatever reason or excuse you wanna put up, shes mad.
Now lets imagine its the other way around, you dont commit adultery but ur wet female just started sharing with all the men around and you feel uneasy, in the end adultery will be rejected by both parties as you both want to have the other person for "love" or just plain personal interest.
In any case, adultery will make people mad or feel rejected or unattended on the long run, hence its "bad" it creates conflicts.
Whatever the reason is for adultery, its known to be damaging because of human nature to wanna have stuff for itself (items, people, family etc)
Why it happens i dont know,but whoever says adultery is fine in their book wont like it if the BEST chick he has met starts fucking everyone around him while he thought he had her for himself. None of that macho shit " if she does it i do it too", if the attatchment is strong (and someday ull find it, even in one of those with whom you cheated with) you will hate it if she does it.
There may be exceptions but whoever says adultery is fine, that it can be mutual, a free relationship, probably hasnt met or encountered that person who fills them up and makes them want to have only her or at least that she only has him. When that one cheats on you and tells u she wants to share with other men, or that other men are better, ill wait by and wait for you to tell me adultery is cool in ur book.
The other bunch "its a one time thing, its not serious it wont affect us" of course, it wont, if she doesnt care much or you dont, but if one of them cares for the other, in a sane way, loving and wanting to share, in the long run those "one time things" will create conflicts and the shit starts again, turn it around and find one who you do care for, she does it to you, it will affect you. Whoever says otherwise.... well, who knows, i personally doubt someone can live up with that if its someone they like or care for.
We had the Sex thread but it's now locked. Anyway after being told to shut up or post sources by Mister_s I feel like starting a new thread on the subject. I realise what I wrote in that thread was a big simplification but come on I am not going to write a big story here that will be ignored by many. And I don't like to be told to shut or post sources by a person who doesn't do that himself either.
But basically what I was trying to say you should look at evolution and go from there to try to explain certain (human) behaviour like adultery. The discipline that deals with this is called ethology. Edit: I should mention sociobiology as well here.
iconized wrote:
According to evolution, we guys want to spread our genes as much as possible. This is the reason behind adultery, although lotsa guys don't realise that.
Mister_s wrote:
You're talking about a primal instinct, humans have evolved to a point to where they can control such instincts. If we were still under such control, men would be raping left and right trying to produce offspring.
You're mistaken here, we were talking about adultery (voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband) not about a society that allows possession of women and rape. But interestingly enough all societies that were/are dominated by the three big monotheisms had/have systems in place to allow that.
So what do others think?
If you go through the symbolic act of marrying someone, you have basically promised not to cheat on your wife, ever. If you do, you're just a lying cheating husband worthy of loathing since you didn't keep the promise you solemnly swore to your wife in front of a bunch of people from both families.
But what if say the husband is unhappy because the wife has changed after marriage and child birth. All of a sudden those things she did freely and enjoyed during the early days she no longer likes to do, and even admits she never really liked it in the first place. Talking sex obviously.
Now the man confronts the woman, but nothing changes..
So the husband has a house a wife a child or more, He can't give up his family but needs are needs and his wife isn't fulfilling them, so unable and unwilling to give up everything he has built he looks else where to fulfil his needs. Adultery? Yes.
This is a situation someone I know is in, and it's goIng against everything he believes in but even masturbating did not cure the need.
I'm against cheating but sometimes I understand and don't judge people.
@Lopin18: It's an interesting theory that if there is a mutual agreement in a relationship that you can have sex with others that you haven't found a real soul mate yet. I dunno if it is true though.
I am also bit puzzled at the moment that the definition of adultery (from merriam-webster) doesn't include infidelity between homosexual partners. But adultery can be caused by being in a relationship/marriage with someone of the wrong gender (and I should even mention age here ), meaning your sexual orientation is different. Personally I see no difference between infidelity when you are married or when you both agreed on having a monogamous relationship. Hmm a sexual orientation that is biologically not reproductive is a complete different subject again.
@Frant: Isn't marriage basically a symbolic thing. if you cheated on your partner before, you will probably do after getting married. This is a moralistic approach that is not useful.
According to the bible if we look upon another woman with lust then we have already committed adultery. so we may as well sleep with whoever we want as we are all adulterers and sinners!
But what if say the husband is unhappy because the wife has changed after marriage and child birth. All of a sudden those things she did freely and enjoyed during the early days she no longer likes to do, and even admits she never really liked it in the first place. Talking sex obviously.
Now the man confronts the woman, but nothing changes..
So the husband has a house a wife a child or more, He can't give up his family but needs are needs and his wife isn't fulfilling them, so unable and unwilling to give up everything he has built he looks else where to fulfil his needs. Adultery? Yes.
This is a situation someone I know is in, and it's goIng against everything he believes in but even masturbating did not cure the need.
I'm against cheating but sometimes I understand and don't judge people.
Understandable yes, but shouldn't he get out of that marriage then? Find a new partner who doesn't mind his sexual preferences, whatever those might be?
Whatever the reason is for adultery, its known to be damaging because of human nature to wanna have stuff for itself (items, people, family etc)
That's all pretty much based on your (our) western christian morals. Some cultures share everything, or nearly everything, including sexual partners. Then there's polygamy and polyandry (rare), polyamory...
@Frant: Isn't marriage basically a symbolic thing. if you cheated on your partner before, you will probably do after getting married. This is a moralistic approach that is not useful.
The usefulness comes from how serious you are when you take those vows. If you shit on them, you're simply a piece of lying crap. Simple as that. But marriage in itself isn't the important thing here, it's the character of the partner/husband/wife. Going behind their partners backs, knowingly doing something they know will hurt their partner if they find out, and feeling guilt, then it's a character flaw.
If you go through the symbolic act of marrying someone, you have basically promised not to cheat on your wife, ever. If you do, you're just a lying cheating husband worthy of loathing since you didn't keep the promise you solemnly swore to your wife in front of a bunch of people from both families.
You also promise to stay married until death, but sometimes (maybe most of the time), shit happens.
Frant wrote:
The usefulness comes from how serious you are when you take those vows. If you shit on them, you're simply a piece of lying crap. Simple as that.
If you go through the symbolic act of marrying someone, you have basically promised not to cheat on your wife, ever. If you do, you're just a lying cheating husband worthy of loathing since you didn't keep the promise you solemnly swore to your wife in front of a bunch of people from both families.
You also promise to stay married until death, but sometimes (maybe most of the time), shit happens.
Exactly.. I don't get the whole getting married thing at all really. It's a symbolic and quite hypocritical gesture that in the end means nothing.
Still, my reasoning about taking vows and/or make promises stands.
It's certainly no honest behaviour but many do it anyway and that's what the topic subject asked. What are the reasons behind it?
I said that we should look into evolution to find answers. Then I trolled myself to bring up other sexual orientations, orientations that won't produce offspring. But since these orientations also come from evolution, those behaviours answer to the same mechanics (my thesis). Ask yourself, why do paedophiles keep making victims (until they get caught)? To quote someone, the biggest human sex organ is the brain.
So back to basics, a heterosexual couple that lives in harmony. Why would one of the partners cheat on the other?
Yeah but adultery means (by definition) you have sex voluntarily with someone other then your spouse.
The 2nd thing is hard to find figures on. I based that on statements and interviews of people in the field. Like a gynaecologist who said he found out this woman's child was not from her husband, and then he needs to try to speak to her privately. He can't inform the husband, he commits a crime if he does so. That gynaecologist was actually disgusted by it, but said it happens a lot and called a figure like 30%. So 30% of children born in wedlock are not the child of the father according to him. Will see if I can find figures...
And according to some this is much more common than some want to belief.
Mister_s wrote:
I guess I misunderstood you on the first part. I still disagree with the second part since "a gynaecologist said it" doesn't mean anything.
Have to agree on that but I heard it many times from people who have experience with that.
Edit: I am pretty sure I won't find statistics on this. No women who cheated will cooperate with a survey like this. Doesn't mean it is not there. Who wants the loving husband to know that the children, he thinks are his, aren't his own? Whether it is really 30% I dunno, I think it is a bit high. But what I said in the other thread about women thinking: "I like to be with this man, but he will not be the father of my children", seems true to me.
Whatever the reason is for adultery, its known to be damaging because of human nature to wanna have stuff for itself (items, people, family etc)
That's all pretty much based on your (our) western christian morals. Some cultures share everything, or nearly everything, including sexual partners. Then there's polygamy and polyandry (rare), polyamory...
I wonder about that. Thats why i said in an imaginary world where we dont know anythig. What would have naturally? Would we be jealous to share women or would we accept it as communal sharing. Even outside morals or what i was taught all my life, all those things that shaped me, i find it dificult to think about sharing a women i like.
In polygamy cultures do they REALLY feel good in it? Everyone on the triangle? Is it natural for humans to share sexual partners? Or are they shaped to accept it??? In my empty knowledge scenario i think selfishness about ur sexual partner would be the most natural and acceptable reaction that would give place to adultery being bad in the common knowledge. But i wonder too if even that thought is product of how deep culture can go into a person train of thought
Dont really care what other people do. But anyone who says it isnt their fault when they cheat is an ignorant moron and should get a grip on reality.
It's not really about whose fault it is. It's like a hit and run where you say it wasn't your fault 'cause you had one too many drinks. The question is more of a why, what's behind people's actions, what drives them to adultery. Where does the need to cheat comes from?
Evolution (and culture, which is part of it). It's not about justifying but explaining.
Frant wrote:
Invasor wrote:
Frant wrote:
The usefulness comes from how serious you are when you take those vows. If you shit on them, you're simply a piece of lying crap. Simple as that.
Does divorce make you a lying piece of crap too?
Why would it? If both sign the paper it's a mutual agreement. Nobody has been cheated/lied to.
If you say "I will never cheat on you and I will stay with you forever", either adultery or divorce would make you a liar. Also, not every divorce is a mutual agreement.
My point of view: people usually have interests in certain physical traits in women (personal too hehe) lets say wishes, sexual wishes, things that society, culture and other people induce into you, you end up wishing some stuff, wife doesnt have them all, you have wishes, urges to try it, people then cheat. others are bored of the same thing and find that changing and meeting different people is interesting and the sexual aspect is interesting too, so they go selfish mode and cheat. Im nowhere near being right, but thats what ive seen.
Ive even seen people cheat on their partners because they felt they were doing it too and they thought they balanced it. Oh ive seen so many different cases its hilarious. Some people even like it when they get rejected or denied and they actually try to chase and cheat with those people.
I just pity people who wanna cheat, ive always said to to every partner ive had, if i wanna cheat ill dump you, no need to be labeled a cheater or a liar, i prefer to go single and start hunting after a while.
It's not really about whose fault it is. It's like a hit and run where you say it wasn't your fault 'cause you had one too many drinks. The question is more of a why, what's behind people's actions, what drives them to adultery. Where does the need to cheat comes from?
Evolution (and culture, which is part of it). It's not about justifying but explaining.
There are probably as many subjective answers to that as there are cheaters and adulterers. Blaming it on evolution ("Ugh, me stone age, me sow my seed everywhere") isn't really an answer to that question. We aren't male lions...
Quote:
Gibbons are the nearest relatives to humans that mate for life. They form extremely strong pair bonds and exhibit low sexual dimorphism, which means that males and females of the species are of roughly equal size, a testament to the fact that both sexes are on relatively equal footing in their relationships.
Swans form monogamous pair bonds that last for many years, and in some cases these bonds can last for life. Their loyalty to their mates is so storied that the image of two swans swimming with their necks entwined in the shape of a heart has become a nearly universal symbol of love.
Good looks are not a prerequisite to a faithful relationship. In fact, black vulture society makes sure of that. They have been known to attack other vultures that have been caught philandering!
French angelfish
You're unlikely to ever find a French angelfish alone — these creatures live, travel and even hunt in pairs. The fish form monogamous bonds that often last as long as both individuals are alive. In fact, they act as a team to vigorously defend their territory against neighboring pairs.
Just a couple of examples that evolution isn't the answer here.
Trying to get an answer in a thread like this is... weird. Weird question, posed in a weird way, making me think there's something else going on. But I don't care about it so whatever to that.
Whether it's an unbalanced urge/need for sex in the relationship, a questionable character that doesn't really care about his/her partner, a result from a troubled marriage, hormones etc. the only thing we know is that one person who cheats on his/her partner is breaking against social and emotional expectations that often cause marriages to fail, cause pain, guilt and general emotional distress, perhaps for both.
Men are physically attracted to women and woman are physically attracted to men - which I'm sure is a big surprise.
Adultery is when you act on that attraction when committed to another relationship. The consequences are generally about hurt and regret. It often ends up ruining relationships - and it serves to make people less optimistic and happy in their next relationship. Because the more you experience this kind of thing, the harder it is to believe in a relationship. This goes for both parties.
So, it's often a wide range of negative consequences - though there are naturally exceptions. Sometimes, people commit adultery because they don't have the personal integrity or courage to break up with a straight face - and they'd rather put themselves in an impossible situation for the relationship. Not a pleasant act - but I suppose it's still for the better - because a bad relationship shouldn't continue.
As for it being about evolution, I don't see why that's important at all. Evolution is not our guiding light - or we'd still be killing each other off in civilised society (not that we don't do that on occasion). You see, evolution is survival of the fittest - which is something most intelligent people have figured out isn't a workable way to sustain society. It could simply never work.
So, we're FAR beyond genetic evolution today - and our brains have taken over in many ways. I consider evolution more damaging than beneficial.
This goes for adultery as well. Then again, I believe in love and strong relationships. I think people are better off trusting each other - and I believe with mutual respect and emotional security - we're in a much better position to lead productive lives.
So, if you choose adultery over that - I think you're being ignorant. Then again, some people grow up with parents who have, themselves, committed adultery or where their relationship is negative and not based on love and trust. Under such circumstances, it's hard to believe in love - and it's much easier to favor physical pleasure in the short-term.
So, I wouldn't really blame someone for following physical urges - especially not when they're really young and inexperienced. Young males, for instance, have a very strong sexual drive - and many have no idea what love means - or what it feels like to be cheated upon.
Still, I wouldn't hold back explaining to them that they're basically ruining other people by cheating on them.
For whatever reason, society is more accepting of cheating than many other things. I don't understand that - because I think hurting people to such an extent is very, very negative.
So, for my part, adultery is pretty much a universally negative thing that almost always ends up hurting all parties involved and does significant damage. It's also a very bad thing for a perpetually healthy society - because people lose trust in each other - and they become selfish to protect themselves. Many will want to lash out at the other sex (or same sex in those cases) - because it's so easy to blame the entire gender for such things.
It's a HUGE problem that's basically overlooked by most of the civilised world.
@Lopin18: It's an interesting theory that if there is a mutual agreement in a relationship that you can have sex with others that you haven't found a real soul mate yet. I dunno if it is true though.
I am also bit puzzled at the moment that the definition of adultery (from merriam-webster) doesn't include infidelity between homosexual partners. But adultery can be caused by being in a relationship/marriage with someone of the wrong gender (and I should even mention age here ), meaning your sexual orientation is different. Personally I see no difference between infidelity when you are married or when you both agreed on having a monogamous relationship. Hmm a sexual orientation that is biologically not reproductive is a complete different subject again.
@Frant: Isn't marriage basically a symbolic thing. if you cheated on your partner before, you will probably do after getting married. This is a moralistic approach that is not useful.
@Mchart: You are into necrophilia?
Adultery is one thing and infidelity, another. Adultery involves in lying (sexual intercourse), as you described before, with someone that isn't your husband / wife. So, first approach is that only married ones can commit adultery.
Infidelity may not involve sexual intercourse with someone different than your partner, but it involves a series of conducts that are unloyal or untrusty in sexual or in relational terms.
Therefore, a person can't commit adultery if he/she has a hidden homosexual relation, but he/she commit infidelity.
The prove of adultery in a trial before a judge is pretty much impossible.
The prove of infidelity is much more factible and possible.
About the prove of beeing homosexual, in modern legal systems, has nothing to do by commiting adultery or infidelity, because homosexuality is a direct cause of divorce, by itself.
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), meaning your sexual orientation is different. Personally I see no difference between infidelity when you are married or when you both agreed on having a monogamous relationship. Hmm a sexual orientation that is biologically not reproductive is a complete different subject again.
