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tonizito
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Location: Portugal, the shithole of Europe.
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 Posted: Sun, 29th Jul 2012 21:16 Post subject: |
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| tonizito wrote: | | But if it's just to switch hurrs like derp fenix for their female counterparts then I think I'll pass. |
Hmmmm I think I'll backtrack on this and change from "I'll pass" to "meh".
Unless if we start seeing some of the extreme pro-feminist trying to convince everyone that the same shitty game but now with a lead female role is better/not as worst since the the lead is no longer a testosterone filled male 
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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zipfero
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jul 2012 21:45 Post subject: |
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as i said, i d like to see a "vasquez" in games from time to time, but i d also like to see a sensitive male character from time to time (and not thousands of uber-machos). I can see how the first one is kind of unnecessary and open for debate though and it s not what people want necessarily. As i said, more variety and less stereotypes would be a start. Like in indiie-games. They seem to get that right more often than not. So not all is amiss in gaming.
What i dont get though is this tendency to speak of "[adjective] feminists". It s the same as christians talking about "[adjective] atheists". With the adjectives usually being "extremist, militant, whiney, raving" or other deragotory hyperbole.
If you look at positions of feminists, gays, atheists and minorities in general, they often get those monikers added by the privileged majorities. Why?
Also, do a web-search. No feminist is having an agenda to have all future games made into women-only games or other such nonsense (like switching macho guys into macho women roles). Those are usually strawmen or hyperbole made up by the majority so they can dismiss criticism instantly without further intellectual scrutiny.
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jul 2012 22:28 Post subject: |
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Well think about it, that female soldies require their own design and textures, so in a way it's saving space and work, not including them in games.
| Lutzifer wrote: | | and yes, mine is only average |
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Ankh
Posts: 23345
Location: Trelleborg
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jul 2012 22:30 Post subject: |
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| StrEagle wrote: | | Well think about it, that female soldies require their own design and textures, so in a way it's saving space and work, not including them in games. |
It's actually not THAT big deal. Thats just a bad excuse imo. However, I don't really think there are many girls/women out there who actually cares about this matter (apart from the feminists). I know that in fps atleast my gf don't give a fuck...
shitloads of new stuff in my pc. Cant keep track of it all.
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jul 2012 22:59 Post subject: |
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it s not only not that big a deal, it also has been addressed as an argument in the video by people from the industry saying that it isnt already.
also, in MP games of the past we used to have female characters more often in the big titles - like UT and similar - imho. As said before i dont really have hard data on that though.
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jul 2012 23:27 Post subject: |
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Why is this not in the General forum? You have put it in the useless void where pretty much anything goes, as in the content of replies, and then added rules that are not normally enforced here.
Ryzen 5 5600, ASUS ROG STRIX B550-F GAMING WIFI II, Corsair Vengeance RGB RT 32GB 3600MHz C16, MSI RTX 5070 Ti Ventus 3X OC , Corsair RMx Series RM750x. AOC AGON AG324UX - 4K 144Hz 1ms
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jul 2012 23:41 Post subject: |
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i put it here, because the other thread was started here, but yes, you re right, i ll move it.
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jul 2012 23:43 Post subject: |
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| Newty182 wrote: | | Why is this not in the General forum? You have put it in the useless void where pretty much anything goes, as in the content of replies, and then added rules that are not normally enforced here. |
also, "anything goes" is a very broad definition of what the useless void is. We often moderate there as well, because not everything goes there either. Just topic-wise you can do a lot more "nonsense". |
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TSR69
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jul 2012 23:44 Post subject: |
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One argument in the vid of the OP: "Female characters would have a smaller hitbox." Actually that would be realistic, not? If your tiny rogue character in a fantasy MMO would have the same hitbox as a giant tank, everyone would be screaming bloody murder. 
| Ankh wrote: | | StrEagle wrote: | | Well think about it, that female soldies require their own design and textures, so in a way it's saving space and work, not including them in games. |
It's actually not THAT big deal. Thats just a bad excuse imo. However, I don't really think there are many girls/women out there who actually cares about this matter (apart from the feminists). I know that in fps atleast my gf don't give a fuck... |
The same arguing as sabin did in that other thread. Your gf doesn't care, so it must be true then. I think the FPS genre is so male dominated, the few girls that play these titles probably don't care. But I would rather see some statistics about it, to see what girls really think then assuming much.
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Sun, 29th Jul 2012 23:56 Post subject: |
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actually asking the people is always a good thing. There are some studies about gaming preferences out there, but i m not sure if they include questions of avatars & gender.
also, maybe it would help to distinguish the following about all the arguments here:
- we are assessing the state of the gaming industry and trying to paint a picture of what is and what isnt (like prevalence of gender roles / stereotypes etc)
- but we are also trying to discuss how the gaming industry ought to be
so, as a caveat: we cannot be responsible for how the gaming industry is now, but we can try to make changes to it, so it becomes better in the future. Raising awareness about what we like and do not like and being vocal about it, is important imho.
Just look at some people in the industry who get it, like PAX where they ban booth babes. Or companies who do not get it, like the Asus exec who made a sexist remark concerning a booth babe and a product of theirs. People CAN make a difference and we can be better communities and shun the idiots (like xbox live chat idiots). It s your choice if you re complacent about how it is, or if you want to see change for the better. Arguing against legitimate concerns puts you in the camp of the unwilling, willfully ignorant or "offenders" though.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 00:04 Post subject: |
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Yay, gender debates. \o/
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 00:08 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | | Yay, gender debates. \o/ |
we could also just continue to measure our e-peens as we used to in the glorious past |
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 00:20 Post subject: |
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We already know, that yours is only average. 
| Lutzifer wrote: | | and yes, mine is only average |
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 00:32 Post subject: |
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| StrEagle wrote: | | We already know, that yours is only average. |
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 00:38 Post subject: |
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Women are the weaker sex, in terms of pure strength, no woman will ever match a man, even the strongest woman on the planet will be beat down by a man with only 1/4 of that strength. So why do games lack female characters, just cuz gamers cannot imagine a woman kicking ass like Max Payne, Duke Nukem, etc etc and in all honesty whether its fact or fiction, a woman is just not made for that n'or would you ever want a woman like that.
If there's a game where I can choose the gender of a character, 100% of the time I will always choose a male character, just cuz my mind thinks the female character will be weaker(in all reality its ofcourse a mere texture).
Another example, fighting games, I find this complete bullshit, a game like dead or alive, if this was in real life, even one kick in the face or a punch in the face would have a girl like that out cold, so what I am trying to say, having a female character in a game taking punches and kicks and any kind of damage adds to the unrealism in a game, now when a guy takes punches or damage and he can still walk or fight, thats more believable.
Let female characters be in a supporting role, like the prostitutes in GTA for example or strippers in virtual poker, now thats believable and I'd play that shit believing the women can do what they are doing
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Neon
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Location: Poland
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 00:44 Post subject: |
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| Lutzifer wrote: | | Extraordinary wrote: |
there are enough counterexamples in gaming so who cares.
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we had a similar argument in the other thread and it is actually quite hard to come up with games that have female main roles in it. |
No. There are more than enough female characters in videogames, and more often than not, a change of sex doesn't change ANYTHING. Only a person with mental problems could make a fuss about something as trivial as sex of a character made of pixels and polygons.
Here is actually one of the most complete lists that I ever made, female main and/or lead characters in games from the last 12 years (2000-2012):
Playable
- Mona Sax from Max Payne 2 (arguably main as mentioned in the previous thread, but she's a playable character and is crucial to the story)
- Chell from Portal 1 and 2
- Kate Walker from Syberia 1 and 2
- Victoria McPherson from Still Life 1 and 2
- Rosangella Blackwell from Blackwell Legacy and Blackwell Convergence
- Lauren Blackwell from Blackwell Unbound
- Victoria Conroy from The Watchmaker
- Cate Archer from No One Lives Forever 1 and No One Lives Forever 2
- Jade from Beyond Good and Evil
- Nicole from Broken Sword series
- Thief from Trine 1 & 2
- April Ryan from The Longest Journey and Dreamfall: The Longest Journey
- Zoë Castillo from Dreamfall: The Longest Journey
- Lara Croft from Tomb Raider series
- Faith from Mirror's Edge
- Unnamed Female from Trauma
- Ashley Simms from Twin Sector
- Violete Summer from Velvet Assassin
- Gina Timmins from Runaway series
- Sydney Bristow from Alias
- Niobe from Enter The Matrix
- Rayne from Bloodrayne 1 and Bloodrayne2
- All the Nancy Drew games AFAIK
- Regina from Dino Crysis 1 and 2
- Ailish and Buki from Sudeki
- Bayonetta from Bayonetta
- Rubi Malone from WET
- Scarlett from Venetica
- Mina from Return to Mysterious Island
- Lydia from Keepsake
- Nina Kalenkov from Secret Files: Tunguska and Secret Files 2: Puritas Cordis
- Samantha Everett from Gray Matter
- Madison Paige from Heavy Rain
- Konoko from Oni
Strong female characters
- Alyx Vance from Half-Life 2
- Megan Reed & Faridah Malik from Deus Ex: Human Revolution
- Bonnie from Red Dead Redemption
- Grimsdottir from Splinter Cell, Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow, Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, Splinter Cell: Double Agent, Splinter Cell: Conviction
- Triss Merigold from The Witcher
- Farah from Prince of Persia: Sands of Time & Two Thrones
- Diana from Hitman series
- Catalina from GTA3/SA
- Heather Morris from Silent Hill 3
- Sheva Alomar from Resident Evil 5 (playable in coop)
- Kaileena from Prince of Persia: Warrior Within and Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones
EDIT: Additional list provided by a kind soul ( <3)
These are JUST from the Final Fantasy games, mind you
- Refia: FFIII
- Sara: FFIII
- Rosa Farrell: FFIV
- Rydia: FFIV
- Porom: FFIV
- Krile Baldesion: FFV
- Lenna Tycoon : FFV
- Faris Scherwiz: FFV
- Terra Branford: FFVI
- Celes Chere: FFVI
- Relm Arrowny: FFVI
- Aerith Gainsborough: FFVII
- Tifa Lockhart: FFVII
- Yufi Kisaragi: FFVII
- Scarlet: FFVII
- Elena: FFVII
- Jessie: FFVII
- Quistis Trepe: FFVIII
- Rinoa Heartilly: FFVIII
- Selphi Tilmitt: FFVIII
- Edea Kramer: FFVIII
- Xu: FFVIII
- Dr Kadowaki: FFVIII
- Ellone: FFVIII
- Fujin: FFVIII
- Garnet Til Alexandros: FFIX
- Freya Crescent: FFIX
- Eiko Carol: FFIX
- Beatrix: FFIX
- Yuna: FFX
- Lulu: FFX
- Rikku: FFX
- Belgemine: FFX
- Dona: FFX
- Lady Yunalesca: FFX
If that's not enough for women's ego, then that's not my problem.
Also keep in mind that I didn't post RPGs that you can choose your sex in (99% of RPGs), also didn't list any strong female NPCs that appear in RPGs (like Imoen, Jaheira etc.)
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TSR69
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Neon
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TSR69
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 05:18 Post subject: |
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About Lara Croft, I don't think that franchise would have been so successful without a hot looking girl. Yes she has depth and is strong but is that her major characteristic? I don't mind though.
But my main concern was the remark: "Only a person with mental problems could make a fuss about something as trivial as sex of a character made of pixels and polygons." You avoid it. My opinion about it, it does matter. In a MMO or RPG my main char is always male. I want to be able to identify with this character. In MMOs I did have female characters as well but I saw them as female alter egos not my main character. I know there are a lot of men who rather have a female character in aforementioned genres, mainly because they rather look at a girl. And here I assume (my thesis) that a lot of gaming girls probably have a preference as well in these two genres.
| Neon wrote: |
So you think every man with a male protagonist is a misogynistic game? |
I don't really get this and I don't really think that. The remark: "Sure these bitches should stop complaining and let you have your misogynistic games.", was bullshit of course, a little stab at you. I should avoid this, it gives opportunity to derail a dispute.
| Neon wrote: | It is not important to me, but when someone proposes bullshit claims like
a) there are no good female characters in games
b) it's hard to come up with games with female protagonists
c) games are misogynistic because they have male protagonists
then I just cannot shut up, I'm sorry. |
You are misrepresenting claims/information. Yes you replied to Lutzifer who said: "we had a similar argument in the other thread and it is actually quite hard to come up with games that have female main roles in it." I have to agree here, I can come up with Lara Croft and then eh... It doesn't mean it is true though. However I will avoid that debate, I lack the knowledge. Edit: About b, I can come up with 1 game.
I will quit here because this is going to lead to another Rohnrin style of debating, waste of my time.
Edit: Read this and perhaps it will enlighten you Neon:
http://gamesareevil.com/2009/04/gender-representation-is-this-a-mans-game/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
Last edited by TSR69 on Mon, 30th Jul 2012 10:19; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 10:15 Post subject: |
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Neon has made a PHALLIC incorrect statement of epic proportions,
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 10:45 Post subject: |
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men make games men play games
women complain
or
women make games that women play (diner dash and what not) = Profit!
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Neon
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Location: Poland
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 10:46 Post subject: |
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| iconized wrote: | | About Lara Croft, I don't think that franchise would have been so successful without a hot looking girl. Yes she has depth and is strong but is that her major characteristic? I don't mind though. |
Really? Portal 1 and 2 are both AAA titles and very successful games, yet, if you don't want to, you may NEVER SEE THE PROTAGONIST. She's only visible when you place the portals correctly so you can see yourself in them. And Chell isn't particularly a looker either. Do you think that because of that Portal 1 and 2 sold worse than if they had included a chick with DD breasts?
| Quote: | | But my main concern was the remark: "Only a person with mental problems could make a fuss about something as trivial as sex of a character made of pixels and polygons." You avoid it. My opinion about it, it does matter. In a MMO or RPG my main char is always male. I want to be able to identify with this character. In MMOs I did have female characters as well but I saw them as female alter egos not my main character. I know there are a lot of men who rather have a female character in aforementioned genres, mainly because they rather look at a girl. And here I assume (my thesis) that a lot of gaming girls probably have a preference as well in these two genres. |
Fine, and in 99% MMOs and RPGs on the market you are able to choose your gender, precisely because RPGs are about creating your personal story. But then there are games based on an existing lore that wouldn't make sense with a female protagonist, like The Witcher 1 and 2, which are based on the books by a Polish author Andrzej Sapkowski. There are no female witchers. None. If they had made you choose a gender, it wouldn't make sense.
As I said, most RPGs give you a choice about your character's gender, but my question is: what would a female character change in a game like Bastion? Or Max Payne? Would it make it better? How? Remember that gender choice would not only make the development time longer, but it would also consume resources, not to mention the necessity to hire additional female voiceactors, just for the sake of choice. It doesn't make sense and it isn't worth it.
| Quote: |
| Neon wrote: | It is not important to me, but when someone proposes bullshit claims like
a) there are no good female characters in games
b) it's hard to come up with games with female protagonists
c) games are misogynistic because they have male protagonists
then I just cannot shut up, I'm sorry. |
You are misrepresenting claims/information. Yes you replied to Lutzifer who said: "we had a similar argument in the other thread and it is actually quite hard to come up with games that have female main roles in it." I have to agree here, I can come up with Lara Croft and then eh... It doesn't mean it is true though. However I will avoid that debate, I lack the knowledge. Edit: About b, I can come up with 1 game. |
iconized, I respect you, you're a quality poster, but just because you lack the knowledge (as you admitted yourself) about the games with female protagonists, doesn't mean that they're not there. Females have always been a huge part of Final Fantasy, and even in AAA dude-bro games like Gears of War, there are actually female characters that make you care about them. Is THIS not what women should pursue?
In Deus Ex: Human Revolution it is possible for your female pilot, Malik, to die during a mission, as she can sacrifice herself for you to run away. Never have I been more angry than when I tried to save her but failed. That made me feel so much more concentrated on my goal, made me say "Oh no no no, now I gotta get these guys" precisely because Malik was such a cool and strong character. When I later learned you can actually save her I was ecstatic, because I cared so much about her. Why the likes of Anita Sarkeesan can't notice that in games?
Remember how strong of an impact Aeris' death had in Final Fantasy VII?
Why the need to be badass? I certainly would find it more believable if a man was looking for/protecting his wife/daughter than the other way around.
Imagine "The Last of Us" (an upcoming PS3 game) but with the heroes switched. A daughter protecting her father. Not only it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, but it also wouldn't have impacted so many players psychologically, as the psychological impact and the emotions that surround protecting your child in a cruel, brutal world cannot be compared to anything else. I'm not sure if you have children, iconized, but I'm sure you can relate.
Last edited by Neon on Mon, 30th Jul 2012 13:52; edited 1 time in total
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TSR69
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Location: Republic of the Seven United Provinces
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 11:10 Post subject: |
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The thing is we can all agree that there are quality titles that have fun, interesting and strong female characters, that wasn't the point. There are games, and in the case of FPS games almost the whole genre, that lack them. There are games that portray females in a (very) negative way. My interpretation of Anita Sarkeesan's goals is to address that.
And we can still have quality titles in which it is only possible to play as a male character (The Witcher, PS:T) or as female (Tomb Raider).
Edit: | Quote: | | I'm not sure if you have children, iconized, but I'm sure you can relate. |
Nope, I wanted to but it requires a female I think. But seriously, I wanted to have a healthy relationship with a girl and perhaps have kids together. I am 42 now and I am single and I sincerely doubt that I could be a good father. I have made the decision that it is easier for me to stay single. But I can relate yes. I would protect the ones I love but I can't afford to love again. Losing is too painful. Lotsa lemons I guess...
Last edited by TSR69 on Mon, 30th Jul 2012 11:43; edited 2 times in total
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 11:21 Post subject: |
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If you wanna be realistic make games where female characters are physically weaker but more agile. This would benefit RPGs where you can choose gender based on the type of char, if you want to do more damage you pick a guy, if you wanna be more stealthy and acrobatic you choose a female.
All this gender debate try to instill a sense that theres absolutely no difference in men and women is bullshit, instead give me diversity and a reason for picking gender more than the different looks of a male vs female char.
Hell you can take this one step further and have some fantasy race where the females are bigger and stronger...
Dont mess with God, he can impregnate your girlfriend/wife without taking his pants off!
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 13:51 Post subject: |
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| Neon wrote: | | Lutzifer wrote: | | Extraordinary wrote: |
there are enough counterexamples in gaming so who cares.
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we had a similar argument in the other thread and it is actually quite hard to come up with games that have female main roles in it. |
No. There are more than enough female characters in videogames, and more often than not, a change of sex doesn't change ANYTHING. Only a person with mental problems could make a fuss about something as trivial as sex of a character made of pixels and polygons.
Here is actually one of the most complete lists that I ever made, female main and/or lead characters in games from the last 12 years (2000-2012):
Playable
- Mona Sax from Max Payne 2 (arguably main as mentioned in the previous thread, but she's a playable character and is crucial to the story)
- Chell from Portal 1 and 2
- Kate Walker from Syberia 1 and 2
- Victoria McPherson from Still Life 1 and 2
- Rosangella Blackwell from Blackwell Legacy and Blackwell Convergence
- Lauren Blackwell from Blackwell Unbound
- Victoria Conroy from The Watchmaker
- Cate Archer from No One Lives Forever 1 and No One Lives Forever 2
- Jade from Beyond Good and Evil
- Nicole from Broken Sword series
- Thief from Trine 1 & 2
- April Ryan from The Longest Journey and Dreamfall: The Longest Journey
- Zoë Castillo from Dreamfall: The Longest Journey
- Lara Croft from Tomb Raider series
- Faith from Mirror's Edge
- Unnamed Female from Trauma
- Ashley Simms from Twin Sector
- Violete Summer from Velvet Assassin
- Gina Timmins from Runaway series
- Sydney Bristow from Alias
- Niobe from Enter The Matrix
- Rayne from Bloodrayne 1 and Bloodrayne2
- All the Nancy Drew games AFAIK
- Regina from Dino Crysis 1 and 2
- Ailish and Buki from Sudeki
- Bayonetta from Bayonetta
- Rubi Malone from WET
- Scarlett from Venetica
- Mina from Return to Mysterious Island
- Lydia from Keepsake
- Nina Kalenkov from Secret Files: Tunguska and Secret Files 2: Puritas Cordis
- Samantha Everett from Gray Matter
- Madison Paige from Heavy Rain
- Konoko from Oni
Strong female characters
- Alyx Vance from Half-Life 2
- Megan Reed & Faridah Malik from Deus Ex: Human Revolution
- Bonnie from Red Dead Redemption
- Grimsdottir from Splinter Cell, Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow, Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, Splinter Cell: Double Agent, Splinter Cell: Conviction
- Triss Merigold from The Witcher
- Farah from Prince of Persia: Sands of Time & Two Thrones
- Diana from Hitman series
- Catalina from GTA3/SA
- Heather Morris from Silent Hill 3
- Sheva Alomar from Resident Evil 5 (playable in coop)
- Kaileena from Prince of Persia: Warrior Within and Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones
EDIT: Additional list provided by a kind soul ( <3)
These are JUST from the Final Fantasy games, mind you
- Refia: FFIII
- Sara: FFIII
- Rosa Farrell: FFIV
- Rydia: FFIV
- Porom: FFIV
- Krile Baldesion: FFV
- Lenna Tycoon : FFV
- Faris Scherwiz: FFV
- Terra Branford: FFVI
- Celes Chere: FFVI
- Relm Arrowny: FFVI
- Aerith Gainsborough: FFVII
- Tifa Lockhart: FFVII
- Yufi Kisaragi: FFVII
- Scarlet: FFVII
- Elena: FFVII
- Jessie: FFVII
- Quistis Trepe: FFVIII
- Rinoa Heartilly: FFVIII
- Selphi Tilmitt: FFVIII
- Edea Kramer: FFVIII
- Xu: FFVIII
- Dr Kadowaki: FFVIII
- Ellone: FFVIII
- Fujin: FFVIII
- Garnet Til Alexandros: FFIX
- Freya Crescent: FFIX
- Eiko Carol: FFIX
- Beatrix: FFIX
- Yuna: FFX
- Lulu: FFX
- Rikku: FFX
- Belgemine: FFX
- Dona: FFX
- Lady Yunalesca: FFX
If that's not enough for women's ego, then that's not my problem.
Also keep in mind that I didn't post RPGs that you can choose your sex in (99% of RPGs), also didn't list any strong female NPCs that appear in RPGs (like Imoen, Jaheira etc.) |
No Alexis Sinclair? D:
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Lutzifer
Modzilla
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 17:48 Post subject: |
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| Neon wrote: | | Lutzifer wrote: | | Extraordinary wrote: |
there are enough counterexamples in gaming so who cares.
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we had a similar argument in the other thread and it is actually quite hard to come up with games that have female main roles in it. |
No. There are more than enough female characters in videogames, and more often than not, a change of sex doesn't change ANYTHING. Only a person with mental problems could make a fuss about something as trivial as sex of a character made of pixels and polygons. |
I dont really want to go over the same arguments again from that other thread, BUT
- the argument was not about the amount of women, but about the way they are portrayed
- the list covers a time-span of twelve years now and it took you roughly two weeks now to make it that big
- and EVEN IF we concede that it is only about characters in games, look at http://www.vgchartz.com/ and tell me how the ratio of women in games vs. men are currently and how they are in general for the last 12 years. See a trend there?
Also, more importantly, look at the bold in your quote. Please refrain from veiled insults in your next posts. We ve had enough of those in the other thread and it was specifically asked not to be done in the first post. If you cant do that, dont post.
again, you re missing the point. It is not about the amount or number of women in games but the representation of them. Also, again, if you look at the overall ratio of women vs men in games from the past 12 years, the ratio does not look balanced.
Or in other words, if you were a racist instead of making a misogynist argument, you d point out the token black guys in those movies. If that isnt enough for "them", "fuck em."
| Neon wrote: | | Also keep in mind that I didn't post RPGs that you can choose your sex in (99% of RPGs), also didn't list any strong female NPCs that appear in RPGs (like Imoen, Jaheira etc.) |
again, yes the numbers might be on your side of your strawman argument, but the sexism is often even worse in RPGs (e.g. less body armor, more armor value) |
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Lutzifer
Modzilla
Posts: 12740
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 17:53 Post subject: |
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| Neon wrote: |
It is not important to me, but when someone proposes bullshit claims like
a) there are no good female characters in games
b) it's hard to come up with games with female protagonists
c) games are misogynistic because they have male protagonists
then I just cannot shut up, I'm sorry.
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that "bullshit" supposedly proposed by others is one strawman after another.
a) Nobody said, that there are no good female characters in games
b) That it is hard to come up with games with female characters shows a trend and is indicative of a broader problem BUT has nothing to do with the original argument which was about how women are portrayed.
c) i m not even going to deconstruct this one for you. If you re ready, you ll get there yourself |
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 20:32 Post subject: |
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The problem with many of these games is that the first quality of the women in them is their looks, they're supposed to be sexy, to draw more viewers in. I find this helps build stereotypes but what it ultimately does is degrade men. Why? Because of how game companies in their choice of a target audience narrows the preference of the young male gender down to only surface. It also creates a stereotype where women according to these producers are more or less "goods" put there for show. Sort of like jesters made to entertain, not by personality (unless brain-dead "I want sex"-dialogue is counted as personality) but by often overproportioned physicality.
Now, I have nothing against games that promote sexuality, or women in games that are "sluts who enjoy sex" for the sake of it. But when that is all they are it becomes quite troublesome. Without personality, without the same character depth as most of the male cast it becomes somewhat tired. I have nothing against it happening once or twice in awhile, because there genuinely are such women in the real world (shallow, with dreadful personalities) - but when they are the majority ... when they merely are "the love interest" or the "damsel in distress" or the "weak gender" that gets perpetuated by some kind of sense of superiority it really denigrates all mankind, and this is all done by game makers.
With that said though, I think a large portion of "feminists" overstate this issue, they tend to work on attacking things that barely are symptomatic of a larger issue. Now whether this is due to feminists in general feeling they are unable to change the more important, larger things (such as how women are thrown into the desert after they are born because "men" feel they are worth less in some countries) or whether they really only are trolls, looking to provoke people into irritation simply because they are so frustrated with their otherwise lacking capability of changing the larger scene - I do not know. With gender-specialists, self-proclaimed gender scientists and such working on such a micromanaging level, overanalyzing characters in TV-series (like that feminist that attacked Joss Whedon for being a mysogynist (LOL)) or in games. If anything what "unequality" there is in games is a symptom, not a cause. And attacking the symptom will never cure anything. Stop drinking water and you get a headache, but no pill in the world will stop you from needing to take care of the CAUSE of said headache.
The cause of course is fare more complicated, as it deals with structures that are produced and reproduced through written culture, religion, politics, and through governing people. Reality is that the majority of those who write history, dictate and control religion, and run offices in politics are men. Which in and of itself is not a problem, the problem is the structures that influences these men in power to furthermore, like the Cosa Nostra, the mob ensure their own to remain in power. There's a kind of stagnance in the hierarchies where certain thoughts (such as creativity, emotions, art, expression, etc.) are assigned lesser values - not necessarily because they are associated with gender, but because they have been assigned a certain value. The fact that many of these things also have been associated (through effective "marketing" if you will) with women is a way to reinforce these structures. But in essence it is NOT about women or men, it is about the created illusion of "weak" versus "strong", an emotional individual (whether it is a man or woman) is through this normativity cast as weaker than an individual that lacks emotion.
This is the real problem here, men and women is the dichotomy that, like any polarized conflict never will be solved (be it white versus black, Israel versus Palestine, or rich versus poor) - the reason why is because this is all a facade. This is the simple thing that simpleminded people focus on when it really is about more complex issues, structures and norms that are genderless, colorless, and without religion. A whole world is fighting over things that follows the basic principles of Newtonian physics, where the Foucaultian powerstruggle is neverending. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Two-sided, Four-sided, etc. conflicts never have resolutions. Wars are never won, there is only a change in the power struggle. The only way to solve it is to stop looking at the symptoms and start taking care of the causes.
In the case of "gender discussion" it is all an illusion. The issue really is about values and choices and the freedom of choosing them, and the respect or lack thereof assigned with such choices. If you are emotional, if you are a creative person who enjoys freedom, pleasure and creativity - those values are low in proportion to someone who chooses to be less emotional, more controlled, who argues logically and draws conclusions based on facts and rationality. The Weberian "iron cage" if you will.
Only by working on these values will there be any equality, not between genders but between values, personal freedom and choices. While people still talk about "gender equality", "racism", "terrorism", and all sorts of generalized nonsense, the same illusions will be perpetuated, reproduced, recreated and exist for another millennia.
Pick your battles wisely my friends, is "women in games" really the issue here? Personally, I have my opinions on the topic (as I said in the introduction of this post) - but I think the real problem lies elsewhere.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Neon
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Location: Poland
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| Posted: Mon, 30th Jul 2012 23:41 Post subject: |
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@Lutzifer, I love how you skipped my entire conversation with iconized where I presented my points, but whatever
| Lutzifer wrote: |
I dont really want to go over the same arguments again from that other thread, BUT
- the argument was not about the amount of women, but about the way they are portrayed |
Fine, want me to add a role of each lady in the gameplay and their basic background? Sure.
Playable
- Mona Sax from Max Payne 2 - a very strong, independent woman who avenges her sister's death by becoming a mercenary and an assassin for hire
- Chell from Portal 1 and 2- a daughter of at least one scientist, who presented extremely high intelligence with her school projects
- Kate Walker from Syberia 1 and 2- a very successful lawyer that ultimately decides to trust her curiosity and travels with an eccentric inventor to investigate Mammoths in Syberia
- Victoria McPherson from Still Life 1 and 2- a very successful FBI agent who closed many murder cases, during the game she overcomes her extreme fear of flames while chasing a serial killer
- Rosangella Blackwell from Blackwell Legacy and Blackwell Convergence- a young freelance writer living a solitary life in New York City that can talk with the dead, and ultimately solves a case of 3 suicides
- Lauren Blackwell from Blackwell Unbound- the aunt of Rosa, who also has psychic abilities, and also solves a murder case
- Victoria Conroy from The Watchmaker- a very successful lawyer that ultimately saves the entire world from a catastrophe
- Cate Archer from No One Lives Forever 1 and No One Lives Forever 2- an international spy, the best of her kind, highly trained in martial arts and in weapons
- Jade from Beyond Good and Evil- a young woman who runs an orphanage and additionally is a photographer,a skilled martial artist, she infiltrates the government and learns about human trafficking, saves an entire populace and becomes a hero
- Nicole from Broken Sword series- a French freelance journalist, tries to discover who is responsible for the murder of the old man, Plantard, and while doing so, ends up unraveling a conspiracy relating to the Knights Templar
- Thief from Trine 1 & 2- an exceptional thief, keeps things close to her chest, and does not invite anyone to ask her any questions. She has never revealed secrets to anybody.
- April Ryan from The Longest Journey and Dreamfall: The Longest Journey- She is a painter and artist in the world of Stark, had an adoptive father that abused her, soon she discovers she can move between dimensions and saves ultimately saves both worlds
- Zoë Castillo from Dreamfall: The Longest Journey- an university drop-out that finds herself in the middle of something shady, she also has the ability to move between dimensions
- Lara Croft from Tomb Raider series- I don't think I need to explain anything there
- Faith from Mirror's Edge- an extremely skilled acrobat, cares about and loves her sister, she's working as a courier that delivers anti-Orwellian government.
- Unnamed Female from Trauma- a female that suffered severe physiological trauma, and has been languishing in several dreamscapes while unconscious and hospitalized
- Ashley Simms from Twin Sector- nothing really is known about her, because she's trapped in a facility, but you as the player soon find out that she is smart and acrobatic
- Violete Summer from Velvet Assassin- based on a real person, she's a spy that worked during WWII, again, extremely high skilled
- Sydney Bristow from Alias- strong both physically and emotionally. She deals with some significant trauma over the years: the death of her fiancé, the death of her best friend, the realization that her mother was a former KGB spy, the estrangement of many of her friends and the constant activity and changes that she must endure from being a spy on a regular basis. Sydney is highly skilled in Krav Maga and is a polyglot, speaking English, Russian, German, Greek, Dutch, French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Norwegian, Swedish, Romanian, Hungarian, Hebrew, Uzbek, Arabic, Persian, Urdu, Indonesian, Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean, Hindi, Vietnamese, Polish, Serbian, Czech, Ukrainian, and Bulgarian.
- Niobe from Enter The Matrix- a captain of a ship, extremely skilled in melee combat and martial arts, a rationalist with a strong sense of what is reasonable
- Rayne from Bloodrayne 1 and Bloodrayne2- a dhampir looking for her father, sexy(but not oversexualized!) and deadly
- All the Nancy Drew games AFAIK
- Regina from Dino Crysis 1 and 2- a specialist in Undercover Ops, Infiltration, Espionage and Extermination. She was recognized for her heroic successful rescue of a certain character, which earned her a job in the government.
- Ailish and Buki from Sudeki- Alish is a princess gifted with magical abilities, though she was led to live a sheltered life after her father's death that left her yearning for more, to go out and venture into the world
- Bayonetta from Bayonetta-a coquettish and mysterious Umbra Witch who possesses remarkable talent for the bullet arts. She is hounded endlessly by hosts of angels along the way.
- Rubi Malone from WET- She is a reckless mercenary and bounty hunter.
- Scarlett from Venetica- Scarlett is born of a necromancer and must use her powers to save humanity. Scarlett is the unknowing "daughter of Death".
- Mina from Return to Mysterious Island- a strong young woman alone on a round-the-world sailing expedition.
- Lydia from Keepsake- Lydia has a strong sense of purpose and character. She has worked for everything she has, and she bears an ingrained moral compass that will never let her forget her friends or a good deed done on her behalf.
- Nina Kalenkov from Secret Files: Tunguska and Secret Files 2: Puritas Cordis- a Russian girl living in Berlin, whose role is to uncover the mystery behind the disappearance of her father, who was involved in a secret scientific project concerning the Tunguska region in Siberia.
- Samantha Everett from Gray Matter- a student and a part-time magician, she soon becomes an assistant of a neurobiologist. She tackles questions concerning the nature of reality and the power of the human mind in constructing the world we take for granted.
- Madison Paige from Heavy Rain- a young journalist living alone in the city. Suffering from crippling insomnia and nightmares, she often finds herself checking into local motels for the night--the only place she can relax.
- Konoko from Oni- a government, and later a rogue agent, extremely skilled martial artist.
| Quote: |
- the list covers a time-span of twelve years now and it took you roughly two weeks now to make it that big |
Huh? It took me roughly 20 minutes, mainly because I don't remember which games had female protagonists- because, believe it or not, I don't care. And no one should.
| Quote: | | - and EVEN IF we concede that it is only about characters in games, look at http://www.vgchartz.com/ and tell me how the ratio of women in games vs. men are currently and how they are in general for the last 12 years. See a trend there? |
Not really. If anything, there are more female main characters now than before.
| Lutzifer wrote: |
| Neon wrote: | | Also keep in mind that I didn't post RPGs that you can choose your sex in (99% of RPGs), also didn't list any strong female NPCs that appear in RPGs (like Imoen, Jaheira etc.) |
again, yes the numbers might be on your side of your strawman argument, but the sexism is often even worse in RPGs (e.g. less body armor, more armor value) |
Not the case in the old school RPGs, only in Japanese MMOs. Even Mass Effect has a full-body suit.
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