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 Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:31 Post subject: |
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As several here are talking about a law: This is a judgment, not a law. The EU does not work like the anglo-american common law system where judges make law in addition to parliaments. If the EU comission/parliament does not agree with the court's ruling, they can change the law and make the member states implement it.
Last edited by OLime on Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:32; edited 1 time in total
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chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:31 Post subject: |
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well in a perfect world, OLime, im sure we could all use the honour system.
but then the real world happened :/
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:32 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | @OLime
but how do you enforce that? I think that's what chiv means. It sounds iffy, like those ROM site disclosures "You must delete this after 24 hours" - it takes too much on faith. In the real world, when you sell something you hand it over. You hand it to the buyer, they hand you money. With this DD stuff the onus would be the vendor, ie such as iTunes or Steam, to physically remove the copy and transfer it to whoever. |
Have you ever sold a DVD, CD, retail game, book? Nobody can control you not to make a copy for yourself before you sel it, right?
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Shinin
Posts: 1104
Location: The Netherlands
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chiv
Posts: 27530
Location: Behind You...
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:34 Post subject: |
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essentially the courts have decided that digital and physical products should share the same rights when it comes to license holders and selling.
realistically, the two are entirely different, and should be treated as such.
giving people rights to sell digital products, just opens up shit to a world of hurt... both for sellers and copyright owners
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:42 Post subject: |
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That's actually a good point, I hadn't thought of that angle ... the regulations stipulate that it's illegal to prevent people from selling second-hand digital goods, but that's not to say that it's illegal to stop you from selling whole vendor accounts. There's bound to be a loophole somewhere, so perhaps you're right about #2; by having these items bound to an account, perhaps that circumvents the sale of individual items? *shrug*
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:46 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | | sausje wrote: | | What could be the case is that the EU rejects the usage of steam/origin and other shit in the EU untill they change their policy. |
.. this, sadly. Massive multi-billion dollar companies like Valve and EA aren't going to bend over and let the EU dictate how they run their business, |
micro$oft is way bigger and they bend over, they stripped ie/mp from their windows, and payed something like 2 bilions fees until now.
do you think valve and ea or whatever company will just raise the finger ? no chance in hell.
they will bend over for anything that ue wants them to bend over for.
unless they are waaaaaay more stupid vs micro$oft.
Last edited by frogster on Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:51; edited 1 time in total
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 16:48 Post subject: |
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Worst case scenario: Valve/EA stops with usage of Steam/Origin in EU countries and we have to pirate more.
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 17:07 Post subject: |
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I haven't bothered to read the whole judgment, so i might be wrong. But where does the court says that this applies to games?
I read this judgment applies to computer programs with on line support/updates, client-server software etc.
Let's say you buy a company who uses such software, you should be able to use their contract with the software manufacture even if you have to download a digital copy instead or installing from a DVD. You bought the contract from the former company, so you should be able to download the client software and a the court states that a TOS can't forbid this.
However this the judgment never states that this applies to games, where you just play them for entertainment and you don't buy a client-onlinesoftware solution. Maybe you can compare a MMO but not regular singleplayer games imho.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 17:42 Post subject: I have left. |
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 17:57 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | | That's actually a good point, I hadn't thought of that angle ... the regulations stipulate that it's illegal to prevent people from selling second-hand digital goods, but that's not to say that it's illegal to stop you from selling whole vendor accounts. There's bound to be a loophole somewhere, so perhaps you're right about #2; by having these items bound to an account, perhaps that circumvents the sale of individual items? *shrug* |
I think Steam may be almost there with this. It's already against the Steam ToS to sell or let other people use your Steam account. And it could be argued that games are bound through Steam to an email address.
Just random thoughts though.
Pixieking
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tonizito
VIP Member
Posts: 51436
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 18:01 Post subject: |
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@pixieking
Aye, pretty much all the major digital distribution platforms are account-tied, stuff such as Origin, Steam, iTunes, GreenManGaming, etc. No matter what happens.. it's going to be interesting seeing the fallout from this, if indeed anything happens at all.
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VonMisk
Posts: 9472
Location: Hatredland
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 18:15 Post subject: |
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I see the solution for this like that: Steam, Origin etc. changes their distribution policy and allow reselling of owned programs but they take 20% cut from the deal as an intermediary.
sar·casm | \ ˈsär-ˌka-zəm \
1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2a: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual
b: the use or language of sarcasm
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 18:22 Post subject: |
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| VonMisk wrote: | | I see the solution for this like that: Steam, Origin etc. changes their distribution policy and allow reselling of owned programs but they take 20% cut from the deal as an intermediary. |
You're thinking along the lines of Diablo 3's real money auction house. But on what basis would they try to get their share? The court ruled that after the initial sale the rights of the rightholder are exhausted.
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 18:30 Post subject: |
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Well, let's say you have a game on Steam. You put it up for sale (the price being set by Steam and/or the publisher). Someone buys the game, and Steam and the publisher take a percentage cut, as the transaction is processed. That's exactly the same as Ebay, and I don't see any reason why it should be different through Steam. Steam and the publisher aren't acting as copyright holders, but as middlemen, facilitating a transaction.
Pixieking
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 18:32 Post subject: |
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| OLime wrote: | | VonMisk wrote: | | I see the solution for this like that: Steam, Origin etc. changes their distribution policy and allow reselling of owned programs but they take 20% cut from the deal as an intermediary. |
You're thinking along the lines of Diablo 3's real money auction house. But on what basis would they try to get their share? The court ruled that after the initial sale the rights of the rightholder are exhausted. |
Like banks do. Fee for the service.
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VonMisk
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 18:39 Post subject: |
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| Pixieking wrote: | | Well, let's say you have a game on Steam. You put it up for sale (the price being set by Steam and/or the publisher). Someone buys the game, and Steam and the publisher take a percentage cut, as the transaction is processed. That's exactly the same as Ebay, and I don't see any reason why it should be different through Steam. Steam and the publisher aren't acting as copyright holders, but as middlemen, facilitating a transaction. |
This ruling says you can sell to whoever you like, meaning you shouldn't have to be forced to sell in some kind of Steam environment. An administration charge would make sense, but over charging for admin costs could lead them into some trouble, at least here in the UK where banks did the same thing.
Ryzen 5 5600, ASUS ROG STRIX B550-F GAMING WIFI II, Corsair Vengeance RGB RT 32GB 3600MHz C16, MSI RTX 5070 Ti Ventus 3X OC , Corsair RMx Series RM750x. AOC AGON AG324UX - 4K 144Hz 1ms
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 18:43 Post subject: |
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Yeah, there'd have to be some competition. Except for games which are Steamworks, maybe? It could be argued that Steamworks games have to be sold within a Steam environment to prevent piracy and circumvention of the Steam DRM. Not a very realistic argument, but one that could be aargued in a court, perhaps.
But, yeah, there'd definitely have to be a limit on the admin costs that could be taken. A percentage probably makes most sense, rather than a flat-fee.
Pixieking
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73240
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 18:48 Post subject: |
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| Interinactive wrote: | | sabin1981 wrote: | | Another on my ignore list. Keep it up, the more spiteful and insulting losers on my list, the most pleasant and enjoyable my browsing experience becomes ^_^ |
Jesus H Christ, I hope I'm on this list... 
It's pretty poor form to also call people eLawyers while acting like one yourself. Why is it so bad that people discuss this and how they perceive things?
Rage at NFOHump
Rage at PS3 Scene
Rage on articles you post here in comments sections
Rage on Twitter
Stomp off in a huff on each of them. I think it's time to take a look at the common denominator in all of these scenarios. It's singular. |
Eventually he'll be staring at an empty wall that never disagrees with him, never has any opinions on subjects, never "troll" him by having a conflicting opinion, etc. What more could you want? |
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 18:56 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | What more could you want? |
No more Leo!  
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 18:59 Post subject: |
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73240
Location: Ramat HaSharon, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 19:00 Post subject: |
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| sausje wrote: | | LeoNatan wrote: | | What more could you want? |
No more Leo! |
That's what you said last night.  |
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sausje
Banned
Posts: 17716
Location: Limboland, Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 19:03 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | | sausje wrote: | | LeoNatan wrote: | | What more could you want? |
No more Leo! |
That's what you said last night. |
Can't, ixi visited me 
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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| Posted: Tue, 3rd Jul 2012 19:04 Post subject: |
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The more I think about it the more I am convinced that this ruling doesn't change anything for Steam et al. except for one minor detail. The German supreme court ruled some time ago that binding software (in that case HL2) to an account is not against property law, even if it technically makes reselling impossible.
With that and the new EU court ruling in mind, the only outcome for games might be that Steam et al. will have to state in the future that by buying over their services it is not possible to resell the game, just like today on retail boxes you see the warning that a GfWL/Steam/wahtever account and an internet connection are needed.
The fallout of the ruling will take place where there is no account binding yet. Maybe for the next Windows version you need to have a Microsoft account.
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