| Page 33 of 35 |
|
|
 Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 16:34 Post subject: |
|
 |
| pillermann wrote: | | VonMisk wrote: |
Show me an AAA title with more complex puzzles? |
Who's talking about AAA titles? I'm talking about a subgenre of crawlers that died long before marketing guys invented that term. Chaos Strikes Back and Black Crypt both had much more complex level design and trickier puzzles.
| Casus wrote: | | The genre was never focused on elaborate puzzles |
On the contrary. This subgenre was all about the puzzles. Take them away and you're left with a very barebone RPG with terrible combat. |
No, they didn't have harder puzzles or more complex level design. If you played them 10 years ago, they might have seemed harder or more complex simply because by now you've become a more experienced/smarter gamer.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 16:41 Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | On the contrary. This subgenre was all about the puzzles. Take them away and you're left with a very barebone RPG with terrible combat. |
Sorry, you're totally wrong. Games like Captive and Xenomorph didn't have any puzzles at all. Most of them just had a few (like Stonekeep). Dungeon Master was perhaps the one with the most puzzles of the lot.
At the time, the games were primarily about immersion - based on Dungeon Master being pretty much the first real-time RPG with a first person perspective. The combat was great because of this immersive nature, not because of RPG complexity. Maybe you're too young to remember how amazing it was to play Dungeon Master and EotB when they first came out. It was like stepping into another reality - and you didn't bitch about the simple gameplay mechanics - because you were too busy picking up your jaw after seeing the monsters attack you in real time with stereo sound. It was a dream come true for people into immersion.
Beyond that, most of the games had story and exploration as primary elements. Games like Eye of the Beholder 2 and Lands of Lore had a LOT more story - and they represent the later evolution of the genre.
Most of them DID have puzzles, however, but they were fewer in number and they weren't just one brainteaser after the other. The best puzzles are integrated into the game world and they make sense given what's going on.
Black Crypt is the best example of the perfect puzzle design. It felt like there was a purpose beyond just being a rat in a maze.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 16:45 Post subject: |
|
|
| Casus wrote: | | Quote: | | On the contrary. This subgenre was all about the puzzles. Take them away and you're left with a very barebone RPG with terrible combat. |
Sorry, you're totally wrong. Games like Captive and Xenomorph didn't have any puzzles at all. Most of them just had a few (like Stonekeep). Dungeon Master was perhaps the one with the most puzzles of the lot.
At the time, the games were primarily about immersion - based on Dungeon Master being pretty much the first real-time RPG with a first person perspective. The combat was great because of this immersive nature, not because of RPG complexity. Maybe you're too young to remember how amazing it was to play Dungeon Master and EotB when they first came out. It was like stepping into another reality - and you didn't bitch about the simple gameplay mechanics - because you were too busy picking up your jaw after seeing the monsters attack you in real time with stereo sound. It was a dream come true for people into immersion.
Beyond that, most of the games had story and exploration as primary elements. Games like Eye of the Beholder 2 and Lands of Lore had a LOT more story - and they represent the later evolution of the genre.
Most of them DID have puzzles, however, but they were fewer in number and they weren't just one brainteaser after the other. The best puzzles are integrated into the game world and they make sense given what's going on.
Black Crypt is the best example of the perfect puzzle design. It felt like there was a purpose beyond just being a rat in a maze. |
Which game would you suggest?
I don't like complex puzzles, like good balanced combat without kiting, GOOD graphics (major plus).
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 16:47 Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Which game would you suggest?
I don't like complex puzzles, like good balanced combat without kiting, GOOD graphics (major plus). |
I don't think you can entirely avoid kiting - and the genre has been dead for ages, so you're going to have to live with ancient graphics.
I would recommend Stonekeep, Lands of Lore, Anvil of Dawn and Black Crypt. All games are great examples of what the genre used to be.
Black Crypt is my personal favorite - but it's not available on PC. So you'd have to get your hands on an emulator (WinUAE) and download the game somewhere. It DOES have some tricky puzzles, but not a lot - and they make a lot of sense given the context of what's going on in the game.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 16:51 Post subject: |
|
|
What about Waxworks? That might quench your thirst for riddles, doesn't it?
And talking about dungeon crawlers with a story and Stonekeep: It's a shame GOG doesn't include the prequel novel with the game.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 17:00 Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for the suggestions.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 17:10 Post subject: |
|
|
| Tydirium wrote: | How do you open the doors to the "challenge for fighters" in Level 6 ??? I found and opened the way to the stairs leading down but the door stays locked. there is no switch or keyhole.
thx  |
 Spoiler: |
You need the Sword of Nex equipped
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 17:18 Post subject: |
|
|
| Prandur wrote: |
No, they didn't have harder puzzles or more complex level design. If you played them 10 years ago, they might have seemed harder or more complex simply because by now you've become a more experienced/smarter gamer. |
They do. I actually fired up BC after finishing LoG to confirm. Of course if you're experienced with these games you'll have an easier time than someone who's playing for the first time, but that doesn't change the fact that LoG has comparatively linear levels and a very limited selection of puzzle elements.
| Casus wrote: |
Black Crypt is the best example of the perfect puzzle design. It felt like there was a purpose beyond just being a rat in a maze. |
I agree with the first sentence - this is my go-to example of a perfect, puzzle-focused crawler. But what purpose was there to BC other than solving puzzles, progressing deeper in the dungeon, and killing the foozle?
This particular flavor of crawler depends heavily on the quality of its puzzles and the level design, because it has nothing else. No dialogue/npcs, no overland exploration with towns or vendors, no complex character building - nothing but the maze. As does Grimrock for that matter.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 17:24 Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I agree with the first sentence - this is my go-to example of a perfect, puzzle-focused crawler. But what purpose was there to BC other than solving puzzles, progressing deeper in the dungeon, and killing the foozle? |
I just made that plain. At the time of release, the games were about immersion first and foremost.
I used to greatly immerse myself - and I really liked the combat. Also, I think exploration is a huge part of the game - as you were trying to find secrets, and you never knew what the next level would hold. Developing your characters and finding new loot was also a big part of the fun.
Puzzles were part of most of these games, sure, but they didn't dominate the gameplay like they do in LoG.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 17:50 Post subject: |
|
|
Dungeon Master seems to get most the credit for starting this genre, I just wanted to put a good word in for Dungeons of Daggorath which preceded Dungeon Master by 5 years. It was also First person with real time combat. Daggorath also had a heart rate meter, if you were attacked too many times in too short of a period you would faint and potentially die. I don't remember any puzzles though except in order to unlock the power of a magic item you would have to figure out an activation word based on it's name.
Any one else with fond memories of this one? or was I the only one stuck with a TRS-80 Color Computer.
[quote="Casus"] | Quote: |
At the time, the games were primarily about immersion - based on Dungeon Master being pretty much the first real-time RPG with a first person perspective. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 18:07 Post subject: |
|
|
| Casus wrote: |
At the time of release, the games were about immersion first and foremost. |
Games were about gameplay. To me at least.
When BC came out in '92 I don't think anyone was wowed anymore by a grid-based RT crawler as it was with DM (fluid 3D movement was the new big thing then) so the game had to stand on its own merits, and that was, again, its level and puzzle design.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 18:09 Post subject: |
|
|
| pillermann wrote: | | Casus wrote: |
At the time of release, the games were about immersion first and foremost. |
Games were about gameplay. To me at least.
When BC came out in '92 I don't think anyone was wowed anymore by a grid-based RT crawler as it was with DM (fluid 3D movement was the new big thing then) so the game had to stand on its own merits, and that was, again, its level and puzzle design. |
Games are about a lot of things, and puzzles aren't the only kind of gameplay available.
I didn't say Black Crypt "wowed" anyone - but it was certainly very immersive.
If you think it was exclusively about puzzles, then that's fine with me. I certainly don't agree, but who cares.
It's not exactly worth bickering about.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 18:11 Post subject: |
|
|
Most likely not. The argument's going in circles anyway.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VonMisk
Posts: 9467
Location: Hatredland
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 18:50 Post subject: |
|
|
I want to add to my earlier comment that what I meant was that for me LoG is something that I haven't find in most of the new games. I also don't think that it is causal in any way because casual for me mean "clairvoyance" spell or some kind of assassin, detective vision with every important thing lightning up like christmas tree.
LoG doesn't have that and bless it for it. The puzzles easy or not depending on ones wits are there and they are not served on a platter like in other games that are compared to it.
The second thing that amuse me is all the fuzz about how big success it is and all the discussion about sales and prices. Yeah, they are selling great but no one except the devs know the exact number. But I can bet they are not even close to Bulletstorm (which according to publisher was a big flop), genre irrevelant.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WaldoJ
VIP Member
Posts: 32678
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 18:54 Post subject: |
|
|
| VonMisk wrote: | I want to add to my earlier comment that what I meant was that for me LoG is something that I haven't find in most of the new games. I also don't think that is causal in any way because casual for me mean "clairvoyance" spell or somekind of assassin, detective vision with every important thing lightning up like christmas tree.
LoG doen't have that and bless it for it. The puzzles easy or not depending on ones wits are there and they are not served on a platter like in other games that are compared to it.
The second thing that amuse me is all the fuzz about how big success it is and all the discussion about sales and prices. Yeah, they are selling great but no one except the devs know the exact number. But I can bet they are not even close to Bulletstorm (which according to publisher was a big flop), genre irrevelant. |
bulletstorm sold for 59.99
so if a game selling for 14.99 sells 4 copies, that's one copy of bulletstorm. so if bullet storm sold 1 million. log would need to sell 4.5 million to be more successful than bullerstorm. if it cost 30 million to make bullet storm and it cost 1 million to make legend of grimrock... and it sold 4.5 million copies whereas bulletstorm sold 2... log would be more finacially successful.
Srsly? compare mw3 to bulletstorm. compare the void to log. genre irrelevant.  srsly?
puzzles in log are amazing  love the shadow puzzle i was like... DAMN!! that's so cool.
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VonMisk
Posts: 9467
Location: Hatredland
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 19:07 Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 19:11 Post subject: |
|
|
The whole point is that they don't have to sell as many as a AAA title, so they can make a niche product.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VonMisk
Posts: 9467
Location: Hatredland
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 19:21 Post subject: |
|
|
I think you meant they can make a niche product and still get a solid amount of $$$?
sar·casm | \ ˈsär-ˌka-zəm \
1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2a: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual
b: the use or language of sarcasm
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 19:32 Post subject: |
|
|
It works both ways. They don't have to cover dev costs as high as Dragon Age 2, for example, so they can make a niche product. Making a niche product doesn't have to cost a lot, and as long as it's good, it'll sell and make a decent amount of money.
| VonMisk wrote: |
But I wouldn't bet that LoG is sold on the same level as AAA games. If it was than ok we can compare those parts of game's market. |
What constitutes a AAA game? By industry standards, a AAA game usually means a high-profile, probably established IP product, with a massive budget. A quick Google estimates Dragon Age 2's budget at $25 million - Low end of AAA, I think. But does that mean that DA2 is better than LoG? DA2 is a AAA game, right? This is what the thread I was talking about got into - that a AAA budget doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of the game, but that the final retail price certainly does imply a certain quality. You pay £35, you expect a better game than if you paid £15, right? That's not how the industry works, though. AAA games are priced higher due to costs, even if the game is worse than something cheaper.
Pixieking
----------
ASUS P8P67 Evo - Intel i7 3770k - 2X4GB GSkill RipJaws X DDR3 1600 - HIS 7950 IceQ - Creative XtremeMusic Soundcard - NZXT Phantom 530 - Thermaltake Toughpower XT 675 - Win7 x64
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 19:33 Post subject: |
|
|
Level 3 - I just spent an hour reloading after every spider and running back to regeneration stones after every spider when it suddenly dawned on me that the difficulty of this game is utterly fucking spasticated. My fighters are getting obliterated in 4 hits coupled with poison.
Potentially a good game but I've got better things to do than save after every fucking step. And to think they want a tenner for it, mugs.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JBeckman
VIP Member
Posts: 34974
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 19:36 Post subject: |
|
|
There's a hidden item around that level with a nice poison resist if I remember correctly, of course that only really helps one character.
(Mage with some spell abilities in earth might be able to cast a shield for it too.)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 19:37 Post subject: |
|
|
Are you just standing there mashing your attack buttons? You're supposed to maneuver. The game's combat is balanced around that.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 19:37 Post subject: |
|
|
I did, but the chance to get poisoned is way too high, not enough nettles.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 19:39 Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah, you do have to be really quick to avoid being poisoned. Best way to do it is lure them one by one to a large room, and just constantly move around them - hit once, move, hit once, move.
Pixieking
----------
ASUS P8P67 Evo - Intel i7 3770k - 2X4GB GSkill RipJaws X DDR3 1600 - HIS 7950 IceQ - Creative XtremeMusic Soundcard - NZXT Phantom 530 - Thermaltake Toughpower XT 675 - Win7 x64
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 19:42 Post subject: |
|
|
Bleurgh, to be honest dancing with spiders and one slip up means death is not fun for me.
I'll file this under "could have been good but massive fail".
Deleted.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VonMisk
Posts: 9467
Location: Hatredland
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 19:47 Post subject: |
|
|
Wuss ;P
sar·casm | \ ˈsär-ˌka-zəm \
1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2a: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual
b: the use or language of sarcasm
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 17th Apr 2012 19:48 Post subject: |
|
|
Poison won't kill you. You can just sleep until it wears off.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Page 33 of 35 |
All times are GMT + 1 Hour |
