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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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 Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 11:43 Post subject: |
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I still hate Blizzard as well. I still think SC2 is an overrated piece of crap in the sense that it's not refreshing in any way and it's an incomplete game. Something which a lot of other games would get slaughtered for, but not SC2.
I still don't think WC3 was anywhere near as fun as WC1 and 2 were (which also shows in the fact that SC1 always remained more popular than WC3 by a huge margin).
I still dislike what they did to WoW, which started off great and deserved its position as most popular MMO.
At the same time I do like D3. A lot. And unlike some I don't think D2 was perfect; in fact, it was extremely flawed. That didn't stop me from playing it at least once a year for a decade since its release however. As a min-maxer, there are only 1 or maybe 2 builds per class (and per "goal", PvE/PvP) in D2; the only way you can make anything else work is when you play coop - and THAT is what kept it alive for me. Some of the builds I had would never have worked in solo play because I'd rely on having something my friends would give me with their buffs (my critcrazy lifestealing frenzy barb says hi).
In D3 I already see a lot more combinations that'll work than exist in D2.
Last edited by Werelds on Wed, 28th Mar 2012 11:44; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 11:43 Post subject: |
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| Pl@tinum wrote: | | Immunity wrote: | | Casus wrote: |
I would have strongly preferred some way to create an identity - whether through a skill-tree or some kind of talent point system. I don't like that all Monks will be identical except for the gear they wear. That will lessen identity - and that's something I care deeply about, even in an action RPG. |
This aspect alone is going to shorten the game's longevity and re playability immensely in my opinion - which is the strongest thing D2 had going for it. |
That never happens. There's always a cookie-cutter build that people will copy from a website or else you end up with a broken char like so many in D2 and you have to start over. Honestly i prefer a system where you can fix your mistakes for a price like Diablo 3 is going for, where you can choose your skillpoints using gems and items through drops and recipes. Of course those will cost enough to balance your choices. |
I don't think that's what's going to happen, unfortunately.
The thing is that the "strategic" aspect is lost when you can just test everything immediately. There's really no need to plan carefully and invest in your character.
The time it takes to switch skills is minimal - and this means you'll exhaust possibilities very quickly. It's true that it's MUCH MUCH more flexible - but it also means MUCH less time spent on planning and testing.
For people who hate to plan and test - that's naturally great, but even for them - it will end up meaning less time spent on each individual class. It's almost inevitable.
D2 had replayability because it took a long time to replay - and I get that some people hated that. Personally, I loved the investment and I considered the actual "replay" a means to an end. It wasn't so much the actual hacking and slashing that I loved - but my character developing and coming into his own.
D3 might have much less "grinding" - and that's a positive - but I don't see it lasting as long, and I don't see it having any strategy to speak of.
It should also be noted that I enjoy the first 2-3 months of any game more than the rest of its lifetime. That's because I love to try and come up with unique stuff that isn't posted on a million websites - and I like to avoid reading about "perfect builds" - because I prefer to experiment on my own.
Even in WoW - there are debates ongoing today about the perfect PvP build - and I guarentee that no such build exists.
In PvE - it's possible to calculate the optimal damage output - but even that will change depending on the specific PvE scenario. A 5-man group is very different from a 20-man raid - because of the nature of the encounters.
It has become a modern "myth" that there's a "cookie-cutter" build that everyone will copy AND be the best.
Oh, sure, there WILL be several cookie cutter builds - but whether they're truly the best is another matter entirely. Of course, you need intricate knowledge of mechanics to establish this - and 99% of all gamers don't have that knowledege - even after years of playing a game. It's about personal investment and time spent. Understanding mechanics in games like Diablo 2 and WoW takes a LOT more effort than most people are willing to put forth.
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 11:49 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | I still hate Blizzard as well. I still think SC2 is an overrated piece of crap in the sense that it's not refreshing in any way and it's an incomplete game. Something which a lot of other games would get slaughtered for, but not SC2.
I still don't think WC3 was anywhere near as fun as WC1 and 2 were (which also shows in the fact that SC1 always remained more popular than WC3 by a huge margin).
I still dislike what they did to WoW, which started off great and deserved its position as most popular MMO. |
I think SC2 was more of the same, but I can't deny it was an excellently crafted product. It had a very long campaign - and if that constitutes as "incomplete" - then I have to say that's a semantic injustice. Ok, so the story isn't complete - but you still get a lot of value for your money - and they could have continued the story in expansions like they did with the old SC. I don't see the big deal.
In any case, hating Blizzard is ridiculous - but I'll leave that to people who think it's a worthwhile emotion to carry around for strangers.
| Quote: | At the same time I do like D3. A lot. And unlike some I don't think D2 was perfect; in fact, it was extremely flawed. That didn't stop me from playing it at least once a year for a decade since its release however. As a min-maxer, there are only 1 or maybe 2 builds per class (and per "goal", PvE/PvP) in D2; the only way you can make anything else work is when you play coop - and THAT is what kept it alive for me. Some of the builds I had would never have worked in solo play because I'd rely on having something my friends would give me with their buffs (my critcrazy lifestealing frenzy barb says hi).
In D3 I already see a lot more combinations that'll work than exist in D2. |
I don't think anyone here thinks D2 was perfect - and I certainly don't.
It does, however, have more than 1-2 builds pr. class - but I'd agree that there were too few viable ones. I'd say 3-4 viable builds pr. class - with some variation within them.
But D2 wasn't perfect - that's for sure. It did, however, have a way to create an identity for yourself that D3 doesn't seem to have - and that's what I'm talking about specifically.
The "skill-tree" wasn't handled well - but that doesn't mean it can't be.
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 12:01 Post subject: |
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Honestly, Diablo III isn't that WOW (no relation with the WOW game ). It's made so that stupid people can play it too and this means the destruction of games. When the beta firt hit I was in the F&F, so I've played Diablo III since the first day. Back then, before they delayed the launch, the game was awesome. They delayed it to add "great many features" and they almost destroyed it. They left out scroll of companion, scroll of town and two features that I personally liked ( the nephalem cube and the cauldron of jordan ). I was anxious for the full release, but now I'm meh.
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 12:06 Post subject: |
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Wait... so removing two items from D3, which were in D3 and D3 only and had absolutely no basis in anything made for D1 or D2, means the game is now for stupid people? In both D games, you had to return to town to conduct business. You now have to do the same thing in D3.
There are plenty of faults with D3, but putting it down because you can't sell/dismantle items when in the middle of a dungeon or wasteland? Well that is just silly.
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 12:10 Post subject: |
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In my opinion yes. I mentioned these things because all the rest were already mentioned. Too easy, too etc. etc. etc. That's why I said it's meant for stupid people TOO, not only for them and not because those two-three features. I'll be playing Diablo, don't get me wrong, but the wow factor is kinda gone for me.
EDIT: And you still can do those things while in a dungeon by using the town portal. But it's a waste of time to have to always go back to town for that. And to collect all the gold that's dropped from enemies. These are a waste of time. They should've keeped the Scroll of Companion at least.
Last edited by masca90020 on Wed, 28th Mar 2012 12:15; edited 2 times in total
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 12:13 Post subject: |
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I guess once you've used those features from the start, only to have them ripped from your hands later in the beta, kinda leaves a sour taste as well :\
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 12:17 Post subject: |
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| Casus wrote: | | I think SC2 was more of the same, but I can't deny it was an excellently crafted product. It had a very long campaign - and if that constitutes as "incomplete" - then I have to say that's a semantic injustice. Ok, so the story isn't complete - but you still get a lot of value for your money - and they could have continued the story in expansions like they did with the old SC. I don't see the big deal. |
Wait, WHAT? SC2 has a *long* campaign? Since when? It is shorter than each of SC1's campaigns and obviously, there only is that one campaign. The MP is fine, but that's not for me (I'm not into MP RTS, never have been and never will be). The SP is far from what it should have been.
That said, even the MP did not get all the attention it needed. It still suffers from horrible imbalances and a ton of pretty much useless (and thus unused) units. Just like its predecessor. Sure, there are new units and some old ones are gone - but the actual balance between what's useful/effective and what isn't hasn't changed. So what *exactly* does it improve? The graphics (which is a souped up WC3 engine)? No, while SC2 is a fine MP game as it is, just like its predecessor, it is NOT an improvement. It's like you said, more of the same. It's not what I call a proper sequel (WC2 added a ton of new units and as much as I dislike WC3 for not being as much fun as WC2, it was a proper sequel).
| Quote: | | In any case, hating Blizzard is ridiculous - but I'll leave that to people who think it's a worthwhile emotion to carry around for strangers. |
Hating is too strong a strong word perhaps, maybe I should've said "dislike their methods". Fact is that with SC2 they went for the money. With WoW, they went for the money. So far, with D3, a lot more effort is showing than was put into SC2.
| Quote: | | It does, however, have more than 1-2 builds pr. class - but I'd agree that there were too few viable ones. I'd say 3-4 viable builds pr. class - with some variation within them. |
Really? Barbarian has concentrate, frenzy or whirlwind, with frenzy being a pure PvE build and the other two are highly situational and requiring slight alterations for PvE and PvP. Like I said, each class has 1 or 2 PvE builds and 1 or 2 PvP builds - often with one build semi-working for both goals.
A skill tree like in D2 or WoW will very rarely work - you are ALWAYS going to end up with half a tree being unused because there are other and better skills to take. I've not seen a single game where every single skill in a skill tree was useful.
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 12:20 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | | I guess once you've used those features from the start, only to have them ripped from your hands later in the beta, kinda leaves a sour taste as well :\ |
Exactly this was my feeling when these features were gone. But let's hope the story will be awesome and the RMAH will not take away our pleasure to play ( I mean farmers and people that will buy their items while we're all struggling to find/craft ours).
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 12:31 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | | Wait, WHAT? SC2 has a *long* campaign? Since when? It is shorter than each of SC1's campaigns and obviously, there only is that one campaign. The MP is fine, but that's not for me (I'm not into MP RTS, never have been and never will be). The SP is far from what it should have been. |
What? The SP campaign is 20-30 hours long. Each SC campaign was around 10 hours - as I recall.
So, that's bullshit.
| Quote: | | That said, even the MP did not get all the attention it needed. It still suffers from horrible imbalances and a ton of pretty much useless (and thus unused) units. Just like its predecessor. Sure, there are new units and some old ones are gone - but the actual balance between what's useful/effective and what isn't hasn't changed. So what *exactly* does it improve? The graphics (which is a souped up WC3 engine)? No, while SC2 is a fine MP game as it is, just like its predecessor, it is NOT an improvement. It's like you said, more of the same. It's not what I call a proper sequel (WC2 added a ton of new units and as much as I dislike WC3 for not being as much fun as WC2, it was a proper sequel). |
You're welcome to your opinion, of course. I think you're exaggerating to a ridiculous degree - but whatever.
I played SC MP very much, but SC2 - as I said - was too much of the same. I do have some friends who love it to death - and are still playing very often.
I guess they must have overlooked how horrible it is, according to you.
| Quote: | | Hating is too strong a strong word perhaps, maybe I should've said "dislike their methods". Fact is that with SC2 they went for the money. With WoW, they went for the money. So far, with D3, a lot more effort is showing than was put into SC2. |
I'd say there's a pretty gigantic difference between disliking methods and hating someone - yeah 
As for going for the money, I'd say that's true of most AAA developers. I don't really care about that.
I care about the product they're selling, and I think WoW is still the best themepark MMO after 7 years - which is actually kinda scary.
Is it perfect? Oh god no, and it's dead to me. But I did spend a lot of time playing it - and it's still extremely competent. It's too casual for me, but I can't deny the quality of the product.
SC2? Again, a high quality product that's not targeting me.
D3? Looks like a fantastic game that IS targeting me.
Are they going to generate millions of dollars? Definitely. I'll be playing D3 for quite a while - and if 200+ hours isn't worth 45 Euros (local retailer) - then I don't know what is.
If I dislike anything, it's human nature combined with capitalism - but that's universal and I wouldn't single out Bliz just because they're so successful.
| Quote: | | Really? Barbarian has concentrate, frenzy or whirlwind, with frenzy being a pure PvE build and the other two are highly situational and requiring slight alterations for PvE and PvP. Like I said, each class has 1 or 2 PvE builds and 1 or 2 PvP builds - often with one build semi-working for both goals. |
I'm not going to argue the finer points, because it's obvious we think the same thing. It didn't have enough variety - and it should have had a better balance between skills. We can agree on that.
It's also the first Action RPG using a skill-tree and it came out 12 years ago. It remains the best Action RPG in existence to this day. But perfect? No.
| Quote: | | A skill tree like in D2 or WoW will very rarely work - you are ALWAYS going to end up with half a tree being unused because there are other and better skills to take. I've not seen a single game where every single skill in a skill tree was useful. |
The implementation doesn't have to be perfect to work. It's very true that D2 had serious issues - but I personally think WoW's talent tree was very good. Lots of situational and "meh" talents - and they've tried to improve upon it.
But it didn't stop me from coming up with dozens of builds that I had a TON of fun dreaming up - and I've been very successful at both PvE and PvP.
But perfect? No.
No system is ever perfect once it reaches a certain level of complexity. But that doesn't mean the answer is to dump the system altogether.
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 12:58 Post subject: |
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You're both misreading me entirely. I'm not saying SC2 MP is bad. I'm saying it's barely an improvement over the original, nor is it very different. That's fine, since the original was the most popular RTS (and quite possibly MP game) of all time.
What's not fine is that the game took 7 years to develop and has little to show for it. The SP campaign sure as hell did not take me 20 hours, nowhere close to that. More along the lines of 12-14 hours, if that. 10 hours for one of the SC1 campaigns sounds about right, except that it had 3 of them - all more challenging as well I might add, because despite not being an RTS player I breezed through SC2 without a single problem. The story in SC1 is also more interesting in my opinion. So where exactly did those 7 years go?
If I look at Diablo 3 in comparison, the story (and its telling) so far seem to be better than before. Length-wise we don't know yet obviously, but judging by the beta and how small a part of Act 1 that must be, we'll be looking at a similar length I'm guessing.
I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter because SC2 and WC3 were so disappointing to me (for different reasons). Or maybe it's because they fucked WoW up so badly, which I did enjoy immensely at first. I personally just think that the big difference is that with D3 they don't need to go down the "EVERYBODY IS CASUAL" route like with WoW since they know there's a huge following that's watching their every move. Same goes for SC2, they knew their focus had to be MP and making sure all SC MP players would enjoy that - as a result the SP is just easy and boring though. In that sense D3 development is similar to SC2, with the big difference being that this time around there are big changes (and for the most part, highly positive) for all audiences, rather than just part of them.
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 13:05 Post subject: |
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Is there a way to find out if a particular battle.net account is in use? Because im sharing one with two other people, and dont want to throw them off their game when i log in.
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Sin317
Banned
Posts: 24322
Location: Geneva
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 13:06 Post subject: |
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you cant login if its already logged in, simple ^^
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 13:08 Post subject: |
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| Sin317 wrote: | | you cant login if its already logged in, simple ^^ |
I can, but the other gets thrown out of his game.
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Nui
VIP Member
Posts: 5720
Location: in a place with fluffy towels
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 13:36 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 13:39 Post subject: |
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I'm not sure myself, though various online tips/etc from wikis and cheat sites claim that anything over "players 1" increases loot quality.
http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Players_x
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Nui
VIP Member
Posts: 5720
Location: in a place with fluffy towels
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 14:05 Post subject: |
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Players X does however affect all clickable items (i.e. logs, chests, urns etc.) immediately. In theory one could clear the whole area on p1, then set the player settings to 8 for maximised drops (i.e. minimised NoDrop) and pop all chests, urns etc. only then. This is in no way illegal, but considered cheesy by most players in the SPF. Ususall this (ab)use of the Players X command is prohibited in SPF tournaments.
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From the same link. Then, of course, there are the countless cheats/tips sites that all say the same; the players x command increases the difficulty of enemies due to the simulation of multiplayer players.. and that tougher enemies have better loot.
But, like I said, I don't know for certain other than what these sites claim.
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Nui
VIP Member
Posts: 5720
Location: in a place with fluffy towels
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 14:40 Post subject: |
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I guess that all makes sense, thanks for the clarification! As I said, I really didn't know one way or another, I was simply going by what other sites say.
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 18:56 Post subject: |
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Blizzard games never blow people away, that's not what they are famous for. Their games are just balanced and detailed to death. Zoom in when playing SC2 and see all the tiny detail. That's why Blizzard games have drawn my attention atleast. I can't name a single Blizzard game that was best in its genre, but I also can name very few games which equal the detail in a Blizzard game. Even WoW has a lot of detail for an MMO. That's why after all these years people still can't let it go for a modern MMO.
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locke89
Posts: 2812
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 19:06 Post subject: |
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To be honest, you'll never stop it. You can attempt to limit the damage, but as any online game has proven; hacks/bots/etc will always be a problem -- even more so now with an RMAH.
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locke89
Posts: 2812
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 19:11 Post subject: |
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Yea, I'll realize that there will be bots, question is how widespread this isue gonna be. Blizzard simply can't drop a ball on this one.
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locke89
Posts: 2812
Location: Poland
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 19:19 Post subject: |
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I'm not sure it would really be that benefical to them - would people actually buy those items? And don't forget the HUGE shitstorm that imho will hit the net if the botting becomes a real, widespread issue. Not sure Blizz/Activision would want that much of PR shit to deal with.
Anyway, it'll definetely be interesting to watch how this issue will develop after the release.
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 19:22 Post subject: |
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Botting is a real, widespread, issue right now. This very second. In every MMO currently online. I think you're underestimating the extent :\
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garus
VIP Member
Posts: 34200
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 19:27 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:23; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Wed, 28th Mar 2012 19:30 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 15:42; edited 1 time in total
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