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 Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 10:06 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by beyond1 on Tue, 26th Aug 2025 06:14; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 11:03 Post subject: |
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he said non linear rpg.. witcher 2 is as linear as it gets, and thats its biggest flaw
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 12:27 Post subject: |
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P----S----O====O----O----X
That's Witcher2.
I friggin love the game but that doesn't make me blind for the obvious. Smikis is right (never thought I'd say this... but the truth is the truth), Witcher 2 is very much linear. But so was it's predecessor. Anyways, it doesn't change anything. Both are great games.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 12:34 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 12:37 Post subject: |
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Since when is linearity a flaw?
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 13:08 Post subject: |
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Depends on how you define linearity. Chapter one ending can make you do completely different things depending on your choices. Then, you get a completely different chapter two, and also - different tasks for chapter 3, depending on your choices in the second one (and during chapter three). So yes, it's linear in the sense that it's a story driven game that basicly forces you to go from point A to point B, but as far as story-based games go, it's the least linear of them all - point A from one playthrough can be something completely different from point A in the second one. But of course, you'll still be forced to B, if you wanna progress.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 13:10 Post subject: |
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When you're speaking of linearity all of you think just of how the world in the game is built. In that respect, yes, it is linear, but overall it's really not linear compared to most other similar games. The developers said before they released the game that they want to make a nonlinear story and that's what they did.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 13:25 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Tue, 5th Oct 2021 04:28; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 13:42 Post subject: |
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Some of the best games in history are linear. Free-roam is completely overrated imo. Give me a linear world with some diverging paths and tell a proper story.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 15:20 Post subject: |
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Too many people here only think that free roaming equals non-linearity.
W2 has no "free-roaming", but point 1 does not always lead to point 2, for it to be strictly linear.
This was also true was Alpha Protocol, another game where non-linearity doesn't equal free-roaming.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 15:20 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | | Some of the best games in history are linear. Free-roam is completely overrated imo. Give me a linear world with some diverging paths and tell a proper story. |
I'm agree. If the game is good it doesn't matter if it's linear or not.
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vurt
Posts: 13843
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 16:50 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | | Since when is linearity a flaw? |
Always. But it depends on how someone defines "linear", all games are linear to an extent. Linearity in games (no freedom where to go / explore) is like not using sound for a movie, yes it works, but it's absolutely not optimal for the medium. The strength of the game medium is that you can do stuff with games that books or movies can't, thus they should explore those options to the fullest, imo.
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Dunge
Posts: 1201
Location: Québec
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 16:54 Post subject: |
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To have an awesome story a game HAVE to be linear, otherwise it just comes out with tons of unrelated mini quests or hacks in the story to bypass important things. I can't find one non-linear game that had a good single player campaign.
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vurt
Posts: 13843
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 16:58 Post subject: |
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| Dunge wrote: | | To have an awesome story a game HAVE to be linear, otherwise it just comes out with tons of unrelated mini quests or hacks in the story to bypass important things. I can't find one non-linear game that had a good single player campaign. |
Betrayal at Krondor comes to mind. Linear main story, but all areas are open and freely explorable from the start. Or Ultima 5, 6, 7... Don't make the mistake to believe that because modern games can't get it right it means that it's impossible.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 17:30 Post subject: |
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A self-created story has one major flaw though - it's usually devoid of any turns and surprises, which basicly makes it weak and generic - just a list of unrelated events. Also, watching a movie or reading a book is in no way the same as playing a good, story-driven game. It just isn't. The change in perspective and immersion changes everything about how you percieve the story, creating an experience unique to this medium and no other - just as sandbox games do, in their own way.
Personally I like both linear and sandbox games. Each has its own merits, if done right.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 18:05 Post subject: |
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its not only story thats linear, its equipment , lvling up, skills
all of those are linear, you can do all side quests and get maybe half lvl at best, i personally feel like i got maybe 20-30% for level from all of side quests in act 1, then you finish story quest and you suddenly gain 1-2 lvls , it just felt predetermined when i should levelup
gear is same, enter town find merchant, he have gear for act, new act, new merchant new gear, there was nothing different
still hoping to finish game one day, but its one of those very good but oh so bland in my eyes, i still consider witcher 1 having best story in gaming, yet this one didnt drawn me in at all
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 18:17 Post subject: |
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Woah, I had no idea they were making the Enhanced Edition. Man that's awesome, so many new content, characters, locations, longer chapter 3, more cutscenes all for free, that's just amazing. I still need to finish W2 with Iorveth's path, the first time I went with that other guy.
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Roach_666
Posts: 1299
Location: Hell in its Alpha Build
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 18:50 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | | Since when is linearity a flaw? |
Linear games with emergent gameplay are fine. But if there's no emergent gameplay then by definition of linearity - the game has no replay value!
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garus
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 18:57 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:20; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 19:04 Post subject: |
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Interesting. I've yet to play the game fully. Hopefully the sex is made optional like it was in TW1 and there is an option to censor the language. This really put me off and I stopped playing because of its in your face nature and TW1 was better in that aspect (optional sex and less cussing in comparison to TW2).
1 and 2 are still amazing.
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Roach_666
Posts: 1299
Location: Hell in its Alpha Build
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 19:17 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: | | How do you measure replay value? I played multiple absolutely linear games (not even RPGs) more than once. Most often Max Payne 1/2. Is there anything emergent there? No. It's just fun, every time. |
I did the same with Max Payne 1 & 2. Now let's a have a closer look shall we.
Max Payne primarily has bullet time and shoot dodge as gameplay feature. That is, you can dodge bullets by running around in whatever path you wish is necessary in bullet time, for how much time you wish; you can also shoot dodge left, right, front, back, top-right diagonal, top-left diagonal, bottom-right diagonal, bottom-left diagonal. You may or may not choose to do these in corridors or wide open areas.
Also, while being in the above mentioned modes you can choose to use whatever weapons you wish and fire whatever amount of bullets you feel like.
You also can play the entire game without enabling bullet time or executing shoot dodge at all and instead choosing to barrel roll and firing from being behind cover (EDIT: strafing left and right, i.e.).
All these possibilities are not scripted.
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vurt
Posts: 13843
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 21:23 Post subject: |
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| Aquma wrote: | A self-created story has one major flaw though - it's usually devoid of any turns and surprises, which basicly makes it weak and generic - just a list of unrelated events.
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No, it would be related to what the player has decided to do. How "generic" it all is will depend on the player's creativity and imagination, something that is naturally linked to "game" and "play", that's what those terms really stands for.
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Also, watching a movie or reading a book is in no way the same as playing a good, story-driven game. |
That's what i'm saying. A book is obviously the better medium for telling a deep story with complex characters. Games just can't compare.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 22:26 Post subject: |
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No matter what the player decides to do, he'll never be surprised by the world. That's what I'm getting at. You really can't surprise yourself... and simple scripts and AI definitely won't do it for you. No matter how creative and imaginative you are, unless you've got a splitted personality, the story will always be predictible to you, because you're the only changing factor. Sure, it might be suprising to an outside person, but why would that matter to the player? On the other hand, things are different when there's a good script present - there are some events set to pass, that may, or may not, surprise you.
And you mistake my words. What I meant is: books are neither better nor worse, they are just different, completely incomparable. While a book usually has a much more complicated story, it can't really take you inside the world like a game is able to. It's just not possible, because of how the medium works. Games are by definition more immersive, they not only make use of more senses, but also require you to actively take part in what's happening and allow you to affect the outcome.
So, TL;DR version: story-driven games can't be compared to books. Even if both things revolve around the story, the experiences of reading and playing are completely different.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 23:19 Post subject: |
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Witcher 2 linear? Whoa! It's the second* most non-linear story driven RPG since... long time ago!
* first prize still goes to Alpha Protocol
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prudislav
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Location: The land of beer and porn
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Feb 2012 23:30 Post subject: |
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| Lukxxx wrote: | Witcher 2 linear? Whoa! It's the second* most non-linear story driven RPG since... long time ago!
* first prize still goes to Alpha Protocol |
+1
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vurt
Posts: 13843
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun, 26th Feb 2012 04:53 Post subject: |
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| Aquma wrote: | No matter what the player decides to do, he'll never be surprised by the world. That's what I'm getting at. You really can't surprise yourself... and simple scripts and AI definitely won't do it for you.
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Open-world games should surprise and engage the player with the game world design, if it can't manage to do that it's just not a good game. Obviously a game can't be 100% non-linear, there's no such thing until we have an AI that is so good that it can come up with interesting quests on its own. But we'll have to wait a few hundred years for that i'm afraid.
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And you mistake my words. What I meant is: books are neither better nor worse, they are just different, completely incomparable. While a book usually has a much more complicated story, it can't really take you inside the world like a game is able to. |
Ofcourse books can take you inside the world, that's what they're all about. A book can't compare to a open-world game which is fairly nonlinear, those two experiences will be too different, and that's what i like.. But it can be compared to a linear movie, or a game which is also trying to tell a linear story and where story and characters are the main attraction.
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Doesn't make TW2 a bad game because of it, but the fact still remains.
if i want a linear story i read a book and get a 100% better experience than from playing a Bioware (for example) game which can't match the story of a good book.
