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-=Cartoon=-
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Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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 Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 01:34 Post subject: Can one of you Euros.. plz explain to me whats going on... |
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
Posts: 65093
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 01:43 Post subject: |
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I honestly think that  
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 02:00 Post subject: |
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I think that people in greece and many other european countries have a really bad mentality. They keep making stupid decisions and are not willing to sacrifice for a better tomorrow. People have become too cozy and lazy.
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RSI name: ctulu
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Przepraszam
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Posts: 14508
Location: Poland. New York.
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 02:06 Post subject: |
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| kazemaky wrote: | | I think that people in greece and many other european countries have a really bad mentality. They keep making stupid decisions and are not willing to sacrifice for a better tomorrow. People have become too cozy and lazy. |
I think you just described 99% of the population and/or all of the politicians |
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zipfero
Posts: 8938
Location: White Shaft
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 02:13 Post subject: |
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Greece are fucked up. They had an unsustainable economy and now they wont pay the price. I honestly think that Germany is closing in on letting them default if they decide to let the cutbacks go to a public vote and it gets a no. If that happens, euro is fucked and next step is the EU is fucked. Not heartbroken by it to be honest, that place is a cesspool(EU). Germany wants to keep it running but they are losing a lot of traction in their own country at the moment.
8 out of 10 dentists prefer zipfero to competing brands(fraich3 and Mutantius)!
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 08:23 Post subject: |
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There is a saying here: To owe like Greece.
And that saying is from before first world war iirc.
Basically Greeks aren't good with money, they live out of their limits, and now all the shitty decisions they made in the past, is coming to bite their ass.
But because they are monetary bound to the rest of EU, if one of the members of the EU falls, the rest of the EU goes down. Kinda like domino.
Yeah, that's a good analogy.
Basically, you have major financial instabilities through the EU (Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal), and now they are actually considering letting us in (Croatia), and our economy... wait what economy?!
As I see it, the EU won't be here that long...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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-=Cartoon=-
VIP Member
Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 09:32 Post subject: |
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So.. Germany is the euro economic powerhouse ????
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 09:34 Post subject: |
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Greece is sort of Goldman-Sachs back in the days.
The problem loaning and spending so much that you lose all your possibilities to get back on the horse.
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 09:41 Post subject: |
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| -=Cartoon=- wrote: | | So.. Germany is the euro economic powerhouse ???? |
germany is what keeps the continent alive. 
is what keeps this dead horse called the euro..alive!
compared to the German people..we are all lazy fucks.
>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ♪ Viva La Vida ♪ <<<<<< <<<<< <<<<<< <<< |
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 10:03 Post subject: |
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In this one area in Greece, 13000 pools exist, 7 were reported to the gov and taxed.. in Italy, 9 out of 1000 millionaires declared income last year..
If everyone cheats on taxes, you dun' get it.
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 10:26 Post subject: |
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I think non-euros have difficulty understanding the inner European power layout.
The EU started out as a union between France/Germany/Netherlands/Lux about natural resources on the borders and how to exploit them, this later lead to a economic freezone.
Europe can be split in paying members, neutral members and receiving members.
Germany, The Netherlands, Scandanavia and such are paying members, they pay considerably much more per capita than any other members.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036097.stm#start
If you press per population you can see the problem here, as you can see some countries dont really contribute compared to what they receive, something this graph doesnt show is forced economic investment funded by the EU. Every area that is low in development receives financing from the EU. When Poland joined we had to change the system or else our payments to agricultral support would be doubled. The problem here is that too many countries that werent ready for the EU and are simply breaking the union now have become part of it. The EU has also lacked enforcement of its rules, for example France has been inflating the Euro for years with its deficit policies.
Interestingly enough the countries that pay most per capita are also the ones that always follow the rules.
In short:
We need a new union that only allows members with a clean trackrecord and a stable economy, a union that also supports some cultural similarity instead of what is happening now.
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-=Cartoon=-
VIP Member
Posts: 8823
Location: South Pacific Ocean
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 11:05 Post subject: |
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So what is the actual point of the EU now ?
If Germany is paying so much money.. why would they want it ?
Also, why aint the german public getting majorly fucked off .. (or are they) ?
And judging by those graphics.. greece look like leechers ...
Last edited by -=Cartoon=- on Sun, 6th Nov 2011 11:12; edited 1 time in total
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garus
VIP Member
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 11:11 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:37; edited 1 time in total
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Mantis2K9
Posts: 676
Location: London,England
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 11:17 Post subject: |
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The problem for Europe is we allowed people into the EU who are incapable of putting into Europe, for instance Eastern European countries who have very little economy to bring to the table. Instead of an elitism attitude which would have made Europe small but strong, we have a Europe with some powerfull ( was countries ) and other countries that just take, the mentality is strength in numbers.
Countries like Greece and Italiy fiddled their books to meet the criterias of getting into the Euro, and the time has now come that the more economically richer countries cannot afford to sustain their growth when they arent the one paying for it, and then they wont give it back.
The situation in Europe is how Ford and GM was back in the early 2000's they bought up a load of smaller car makers, ones that were going no where, as people stopped buying so many of their cars and their markets got squeezed it became apparent that infact those little companies they bought hoping to turn around and make a profit from, were the very companies dragging them down to finnancial death.
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 11:34 Post subject: |
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| -=Cartoon=- wrote: | So what is the actual point of the EU now ?
If Germany is paying so much money.. why would they want it ?
Also, why aint the german public getting majorly fucked off .. (or are they) ?
And judging by those graphics.. greece look like leechers ... |
If big countries quit the EU and dropped euro too, that would most likely lead to another economic crisis. Most EU countries are so depending on each other that there's no easy way to calm this storm.
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Sin317
Banned
Posts: 24322
Location: Geneva
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Sin317
Banned
Posts: 24322
Location: Geneva
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 12:17 Post subject: |
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the US total debt is over 50 trillion (short)
or :
50'000'000'000'000 (actually 54'000'000'000'000 , but who is counting lol ^^)
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 12:22 Post subject: |
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| Sin317 wrote: | the US total debt is over 50 trillion (short)
or :
50'000'000'000'000 (actually 54'000'000'000'000 , but who is counting lol ^^)
http://www.usdebtclock.org/ |
That's if you count unfunded medicare and medicaid costs over the next 75 years. And in truth in that case it's much higher (~60 trillion iirc). Point being it's an unrealistic assumption because everyone here (USA) knows those 60 trillion will never materialize. The legislation will be changed, and the estimates will change.
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 12:36 Post subject: |
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| -=Cartoon=- wrote: | | So what is the actual point of the EU now ? |
Money aside, trading within the EU has massive benefits. A lot of taxes you don't have to pay (I'm talking B2B). For transport companies, there's a lot less paperwork required thanks to the relatively open borders. For me with my small business, it means I don't have to fuck around with different VAT arrangements, because there is no VAT for B2B within the EU (Germany does 19/5/0 for example, UK does 20/5/0, we do 19/6/0). Stuff like that.
Problem is just that the Euro now is used by too many weak countries. Even though it still is a strong currency, had it only been the "top" EU nations it would've been twice as strong. Personally, I'm quite fond of the Euro, not for what it has done to prices (because compared to 11 years ago, prices are literally doubled on everything) but for not having to fuck around with foreign currencies. I'm really fucking glad I don't have to exchange for Francs or Marks anymore; I live so close to the Belgian and German borders that now I actually do bother driving into those countries for some things. If I still had to exchange for their currencies, I wouldn't. That's also the big drawback to my trips to the UK, I have this crappy money lying around which I can't use until I go back; exchanging it back to Euros is pointless, as I'll lose money on that and I know I'll be back in the UK soon enough.
P.S. Pounds 'n pennies suck 
5p < 20p < 10p in terms of coin size, where's the logic in that? Let alone 1p and 2p, the former of which is almost identical to the 20p coin and the latter is bigger than all of them 
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TSR69
Banned
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 12:46 Post subject: |
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You mean like how 12 inches make a foot, 3 feet make a yard and 1760 yards make a mile? Completely logical
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zipfero
Posts: 8938
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Sin317
Banned
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 13:17 Post subject: |
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| zipfero wrote: | Werelds ever heard of a visa card? Problem solved 
The benefit of not having to change currency is also how they sold the Euro in every country to get it rolling. Economically it hasnt been a very good thing for anyone.
Also if you want you can pay in euros pretty much everywhere that doesnt have it as a currency anyway(UK, DK, Hungary etc etc)..you of course get royally fucked in the arse by doing so usually ^^ |
I hate creditcards; being billed after the deed sucks, not to mention that they're just insecure. Why the fuck would I want one when my debit card should just work? Nowadays my bank card works fine in most of Belgium, Germany and in fact most of Europe including Greece/Italy. Still some backward countries where it only half works (like the UK who have the "Maestro" logo everywhere but don't actually implement it) and 7-8 years ago the international banking systems didn't work at all, so even in Belgium and Germany my debit card would only semi work (i.e. I could use it at banks, but not in stores).
And yeah, that is exactly why I don't pay with Euros when I'm in the UK. Walk into a clothing store, see a shirt at 15 pounds; then you'll notice the Euro price at 24. Even at the current rate (which is relatively high compared to the last 4 years) 15 GBP should be about 17.45 EUR or so.
Edit: Just for the record, I do have a corporate credit card now, because there are still some things I have to pay online which don't accept anything else.
Last edited by Werelds on Sun, 6th Nov 2011 13:24; edited 1 time in total
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Sin317
Banned
Posts: 24322
Location: Geneva
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 13:21 Post subject: |
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i have a Mastercard, but i have to charge it first (sending funds from my bank account to the CC company) and i can only use whatever funds are on it.
That way i can buy/pay online instantly, but am never in debt. Perfect.
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 13:39 Post subject: |
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Basically, there are currently two major economical problems right now in the EU. First is a general bank crisis, which is very short is due to banks not having enough cash, thus they can't give worthwhile loans to startups and micro/small enterprises, in turn these companies can't hire, and that's the reason of high unemployment as well as stagnating economies. As much as you hate bankers, and we have reason for that (*cough* bonuses *cough*), fact is, it's hard without them, and they are in shit since late 2007/2008.
Then, there's the weak countries, like Greece, where corruption is a national sport, and for the past like 20 years all governments may they be left or right have lied about their books (some mathematicians from a respected US university proved this - CBA to find the article now though), and whilst they went bottom up they STILL constantly increased the salaries of the public sector - and the public sector is huge in Greece. Then when trouble was clear, they STILL refused to cut salaries significantly, and are now wondering, why EU countries have had god damne enough.
The dollar, which's role is completely unique in the world, being the major reserve currency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency) means that no matter what crisis there is, no matter the downgrade of the US economy, the currency and the US is still somewhat secure and for investment. The EU is LOADS fucking more fragile, and investors are basically FUCKING SCARED to invest in the region, this is why even the historically very strong economy of Germany is heading towards partial stagnation.
Also, the US has public debt towards china, but this doesn't mean the US is China's bitch ... in fact, from all important perspectives, it's the other way around. China's major export partner is the US, and since wages are going up in China, during the next 10-15 years you will notice major IT companies moving out of the region, and then China will be a bit fucked. They need the US more than the US needs China - that's why China will never stop loaning to the US.
EU debt is more "spread out"
Of course, this was a very trivial response by me, as the complexities of this problem are far, far beyond my level of understanding, I think to get a proper response you'd have to ask a math genius or something.
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 14:50 Post subject: |
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| Sin317 wrote: | i think a lot of you dont really "get" how the monetary system works lol.
PS : the US has more debt than the whole of Europe, guessing here but pretty sure lol.
PSS : a monetary crysis is always artificial. Inflate market with money and then suddenly cut supplies force debts back = big crysis, lots of people losing everything.
Anyone thinking that stuff "just happens naturally" surely has to be very naiv |
... That's stinking of conspiracy theories to me, sorry to say.
The market is very hard to model, very hard to predict fully, and the reasons for late 2007 credit crunch, that initiated it was only somewhat predictable, and even then only by the insiders, as pointed out by Goldman Sachs.
GS who were the ones to realize, that mortage related securities (which they held very many of), which were classified as lowly volatile at the time, were in fact riskier, especially since common practice in the industry was packaging and trading said securities for high fees without protecting themselves against the positions they were buying.
So they loaded off these toxic assets, thus protecting themselves (dooming those they sold to), but by protecting themselves they caused somewhat of a positive feedback loop, which caused the housing bubble to burst even harder - for everyone else.
Fact is, even the genuises at GS realized this whole deal almost at the last second - due to some great analytics no doubt - but it only further proves, that the types of conspiracies you talk about are nearly impossible to orchestrate with so many players, and so many interests. Basically the only ones to come out on top of the credit crunch (from the big guys) were GS, and they're considered assholes now. The rest would have died, had they not been bailed, and trust me, this served nobody's purposes.
The fact, that executives payed themselves bonuses from the bailout, that is despicable, and their place is in jail, but this was not a pre-planned attack.
So to answer to your thesis - I think I have the better arguments here -
Anyone thinking that stuff is "just orchestrated and artificial" surely has to be very naive . Recessions and bubble-bursts, as far as mathematicians are concerned, are natural parts of the free-market economy - and there is ample literature on this.
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 15:40 Post subject: |
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8585593/Greece-loses-15bn-a-year-to-tax-evasion.html
| Quote: | Greece loses €15bn a year to tax evasion
Greek taxmen are under pressure to make a bigger contribution to easing the country's financial pain by collecting more money. The government is providing encouragement by cutting their numbers, salaries and closing 130 tax offices.
Tax evasion is a way of life in an economy riddled with abuses, discrimination and corruption but changing habits and culture represents one of the biggest headaches for a beleaguered government trying to climb a financial Olympus in flip-flops.
Reducing the estimated €15bn (£13.2bn) that slips through the tax collection net each year is one of the conditions tied to a bail-out.
There have been some imaginative attempts to widen the collection pool. Helicopters have been hovering over plush suburbs in northern Athens in the search for swimming pools in the homes of professional people who claim they are living on only €35,000-€43,000 a year.
Thousands have been identified but tax records show only 300 have been declared. The swimming pool fraternity are also responding by using nets to cover the pools to avoid detection.
Cash provides a convenient escape route for lawyers, accountants and builders. The government has published the names of almost 70 doctors it says have cheated the taxman and some surgeons are said to be earning €900,000 a year and not declaring tax.
“Only the stupid pay tax,” one eye surgeon told a Greek state radio.
Three months ago the country’s top tax official was fired after failing to boost tax income, up from €50bn to only €52.5bn over the last two years. There was another €40bn of outstanding tax payments awaiting collection.
Collectors complain that the taxpayers they chase have pay only about 20pc of what they owe and then disappear
Economists estimate that 2m private sector workers are carrying the brunt of the tax load while a million public sector employees and 1.3m self-employed escape almost financially unscathed.
The government is hoping that the rationalisation of tax offices and the belated introduction of a centralised database will help speed the collections. |
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spankie
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Posts: 2958
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sun, 6th Nov 2011 16:23 Post subject: |
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Everybody wants to get rid of greece, but we cant.
Getting rid of greece would mean a de facto bankruptcy of the euro. Italian, Spain, Belgian, ... spreads would go through the rough. If greece separates, they have to do a devaluation, to become competitive, but their debt is foreign and in euros, so they are more broke than before.
The solution ? make eurobonds, take financial control of greece and act like 1 instead of separate entities. Whether germany or france like it, they voted for greece inclusion, so they should deal with it.
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