oh boy will you all be surprised when you die.. I will laugh my ass off in heaven with all my hot female angles.
if you guyz are right then nobody is laughing I guess thats the fun part. if I was wrong then I will at least never know it. but I am sure that I am right. God bless you gonna watch Burn Notice now
Last edited by highstuff on Sun, 10th Jul 2011 01:34; edited 2 times in total
Consciousness and thought and all the things that make us wonderful are things that we cannot explain, things that we cannot understand. Heaven and hell are the byproducts of man. Man, religious or not, when dead, will experience whatever they want to experience. We, as it stands now, do not know exactly what happens when we die. Bodies rot. But the things that make us who we are, may not.
Religion is useless. Faith is useless. But, as useless as those things are, they help millions of people get through the tough times. People who hate on those who believe in a higher power are the people who do not deserve life. Mankind is wonderful. Why hate on people different than you? It doesn't make them any less than you or anyone else. Thinking that you are better than them makes you a horrible human being.
A good atheists is one who respects religion and respects mankind and mans choice to believe in a god(s), a good faith bound person, is a person who respects other people regardless of their belief. I know serious christians who study philosophy and theology. They may not agree with it 100%, but they respect it and do not protest against it.
If you want to win an argument with anyone whether they be religious, agnostic or atheist... the best thing to do is to walk away. Atheists are as deluded as religious people. I'm not trying to offend anyone. But forcing your beliefs onto others is a horrible thing. We have the ability to chose what to believe. And saying that religious people are dipshits and assholes and retards and derps... well the exact same things can be said about those atheists who throw eggs at people in church.
Your life is your own to live.
You should never, ever, try to change the lives of others.
Some people will try. (from all three)
Some people (who do not have anything) will follow them.
But in the end when we die. We die.
Love life or hate life.
But don't hate the people.
We are just few.
Whether there is a god.
Let those discussions stay with the people who want to believe.
Religion is as important as is atheism. Choice is what defines us.
Who knows if we keep bashing religion and finally end up killing it, then maybe in 200 years we'll all be apple users
Consciousness and thought and all the things that make us wonderful are things that we cannot explain, things that we cannot understand.
yes, we can, and we do. At least neuroscience has come a long way in that area. We may not be able to experience another man's subjective conscious perspective, but understanding the underlying mechanisms and principles of how it all comes together and works is a constant field of research and a lot of knowledge has been amassed.
WaldoJ wrote:
Heaven and hell are the byproducts of man. Man, religious or not, when dead, will experience whatever they want to experience. We, as it stands now, do not know exactly what happens when we die. Bodies rot. But the things that make us who we are, may not.
No, you re wrong there. We ARE our brains. When we die, our brains die and we as a subjective entity die. Anything beyond that is wishful thinking. You may want to believe that some form of energy or of your former self will survive, but nothing so far indicates any of that.
WaldoJ wrote:
Religion is useless. Faith is useless. But, as useless as those things are, they help millions of people get through the tough times.
i have encountered many religious people by denomination and self-professed belief, but i have yet to see one, that was not doubtful and helpless in times of trauma. It may be a poetic thought that helps sooth your mind for a bit, but i have yet to see somebody with such a strong conviction in his faith that actually helped them. Your mileage may vary though, but so far - from my personal experience - i find this common argument to be problematic as faith does not be the big helper in need that it is made out to be.
WaldoJ wrote:
People who hate on those who believe in a higher power are the people who do not deserve life.
wow, that is a fucked up statement to make. Fucked up beyond belief actually. o.O
WaldoJ wrote:
Mankind is wonderful. Why hate on people different than you? It doesn't make them any less than you or anyone else. Thinking that you are better than them makes you a horrible human being.
True, hate is a destructive feeling and i would rather see less hate and more love in the world, but going back to the initial sentence, wishing people death for it? Kinda makes you more of an asshole than the haters o.O
WaldoJ wrote:
A good atheists is one who respects religion and respects mankind and mans choice to believe in a god(s), a good faith bound person, is a person who respects other people regardless of their belief.
respect needs to be earned and a lot of religions have done nothing to deserve a shred of respect for their misdeads on this planet. Some may even deserve hate for crimes against humanity. Why do you think you are in a position to define what a good atheist should do (or a good christian should be) and why do you think respect should be given?
yes, freedom of religion (or even better freedom from religion) is a fine concept, but respect? What for? For being unreasonably dogmatic and sometimes even immoral?
WaldoJ wrote:
I know serious christians who study philosophy and theology. They may not agree with it 100%, but they respect it and do not protest against it.
i dont get this one. Appeal to authority (as in logical fallacy)?
WaldoJ wrote:
If you want to win an argument with anyone whether they be religious, agnostic or atheist... the best thing to do is to walk away. Atheists are as deluded as religious people.
you did this before in a thread about religion. You equal religious and non-religious to give them the same attributes or rather to discredit them both in an attempt to make atheist look deluded, when the deluded ones are only the religious because only they suffer from an illusionary misjudgement of reality (atheists may as well from time to time, but not on the same scale and predictability).
WaldoJ wrote:
I'm not trying to offend anyone.
well, you already did with the horrible statement above about people deserving death.
WaldoJ wrote:
But forcing your beliefs onto others is a horrible thing. We have the ability to chose what to believe. And saying that religious people are dipshits and assholes and retards and derps... well the exact same things can be said about those atheists who throw eggs at people in church.
this is the typical tactic of christians to sell themselves of as the oppressed, when usually they are the ones that try to instill dogmatism on the planet. Atheists usually do not go from door to door and annoy people to give others a religious talking to. And comparing a small amount of vandalism with a worldwide network of religous indoctrination that the churches run is somewhat out of proportion as well. Oh these damn militant atheists, arguing logically, damn them all to hell
WaldoJ wrote:
Your life is your own to live.
You should never, ever, try to change the lives of others.
why not? I think inspiriing people to do good things and / or teaching people how to become better as a person, giving them the skills to make the world a better place for everybody is something we all should aspire to.
WaldoJ wrote:
Some people will try. (from all three)
Some people (who do not have anything) will follow them.
But in the end when we die. We die.
Love life or hate life.
But don't hate the people.
We are just few.
/agreed
WaldoJ wrote:
Whether there is a god.
Let those discussions stay with the people who want to believe.
Religion is as important as is atheism. Choice is what defines us.
how do you judge importance?
from my perspective religion has done more harm on the planet than good. And the good things would most likely have happened without religion as well, because we - as humans - are born to be social animals and most of us are good without gods or religion.
yes, CHOICE is good, which is why i think that religion should only be taught to adults who actually have the ability to make an informed choice when they are ready to give consent to being overwhelmed with dogma.
[quote="WaldoJ"]Who knows if we keep bashing religion and finally end up killing it, then maybe in 200 years we'll all be apple users [/quote]
as an ex nintendiot, i d rather be in the church of iwata
Well as I said in the other thread.
I see atheists and religious people equally.
There are bads and goods.
I consider those who want to change my opinion of life as bads.
I consider those who don't judge me based on what i believe as goods.
Imaginary character or not, we shouldn't judge people. And we do and we hate them and resent them and insult them because it's lol when they say god will strike you down!
Heck christian/catholic girls are great in bed. Why must we hate them?
As for people who do not deserve life. Yes it's harsh but it's not against those who do not believe in god. It's against everyone who feels they're more important than everyone else. I used the example of god as there are more of us here than the believers
And brain... sush We're almost there when it comes to understanding us. But now we're not. So shhhhh for now. In 5 years it's going to be awesome. I just hope my religious girlfriend isn't going to do something crazy.
As for importance. People are people. Some atheists are happy atheists. Some religious people are happy religious people. What religion has done to the world isn't important. What is important is what it does to individual people (just like atheism). Some get faith (if they're religious). Some get angry. Some get happy. Some get sad. Etc. Etc. Etc. We can't hate them because of what they believe. If it makes them want to be a better person, then it's cool in my book. Unless you want to sodomize your children. Then you rot in jail with a pickaxe in up your nose!
And respect. I respect anyone and everyone unless they want to force me to their beliefs.
People nowadays dislike people. Trust and respect is weak. It sucks. I miss the times when we all would look at one another and regardless of height would nod to say hello.
Ps. I just hate people who hate other people because they're not like them.
Be yourself. Live your own life.
Hating someone who is religious, atheist, or agnostic is almost as bad as hating someone who drinks, smokes or is a homosexual.
Pps. I agree completely with religion being taught only to adults.
But not adults in AA meetings or any anonymous meetings.
Or any mental institutions or anywhere where it's easier to brainwash people.
Quote:
why not? I think inspiriing people to do good things and / or teaching people how to become better as a person, giving them the skills to make the world a better place for everybody is something we all should aspire to.
There's a difference between Charles Manson and a fantastic literary teacher who opens you up to great books and shows you how fantastic mankind really is. I was talking about charlie. Almost all of my urgh examples are based on evil.
I should be more clearer next (but walls of text suck!!!!). Im building ikea stuff and quitting smoking and it's hot and humid.
Ppps. You can never be an ex-nintendiot!!!! You're either N or you're out! And once your N, you never get out!
Well as I said in the other thread.
I see atheists and religious people equally.
There are bads and goods.
I consider those who want to change my opinion of life as bads.
I consider those who don't judge me based on what i believe as goods.
Imaginary character or not, we shouldn't judge people. And we do and we hate them and resent them and insult them because it's lol when they say god will strike you down!
Heck christian/catholic girls are great in bed. Why must we hate them?
i completely agree. I think people should be judged on their merits / deeds / character and not by religious affiliation. Hell, a good friend of mine is a jehova's witness and i would never think any less of him for believing what he believes. I have nearly never experienced hate either. It only restricts the self and burdens it with anger and frustration. Especially since hate usually does not seem justified rationally either.
i guess my point of contention with you on the topic is, that you sometimes seem to attribute flaws on atheists that they do not readily share with christians. Like being delusional in the above sentence of yours. Other than that, i agree.
WaldoJ wrote:
As for people who do not deserve life. Yes it's harsh but it's not against those who do not believe in god. It's against everyone who feels they're more important than everyone else. I used the example of god as there are more of us here than the believers
ok, i get your point better now, but still disagree. As a humanist and because i m actually quite in awe of life as an emergent feature of our universe, i wouldnt want to see anybody harmed for any reason. Wishing people death or actually killing them for transgressions only lessens the importance that life should carry above all else in society. Violence only breeds violence and dissent.
WaldoJ wrote:
And brain... sush We're almost there when it comes to understanding us. But now we're not. So shhhhh for now. In 5 years it's going to be awesome. I just hope my religious girlfriend isn't going to do something crazy.
as long as Skynet does not kill us all first!
WaldoJ wrote:
As for importance. People are people. Some atheists are happy atheists. Some religious people are happy religious people. What religion has done to the world isn't important. What is important is what it does to individual people (just like atheism). Some get faith (if they're religious). Some get angry. Some get happy. Some get sad. Etc. Etc. Etc. We can't hate them because of what they believe. If it makes them want to be a better person, then it's cool in my book. Unless you want to sodomize your children. Then you rot in jail with a pickaxe in up your nose!
i ll go with a quote here:
"good people do good things and bad people do bad things. But it takes religion to make good people to do bad things."
yes, i m opposed to religion on various grounds, but the main one is, that - through its lies and deception - it creates a breeding ground for dissent, hate and violence, where empathy and love should for your fellow human beings should be.
WaldoJ wrote:
And respect. I respect anyone and everyone unless they want to force me to their beliefs.
People nowadays dislike people. Trust and respect is weak. It sucks. I miss the times when we all would look at one another and regardless of height would nod to say hello.
as i said, i think respect - and also trust - needs to be earned. And i think that religion has done a great deal of harm towards society by sowing dissent and distrust. Religion is only ever good for a community when all believe in it. If not, the non-believers will be cast out, mobbed or even killed. If religious groups would show some more love and compassion for their fellow men and women who do not share their believes it would be much easier to extend that respect back towards them, but i fail to see it happening any time soon.
WaldoJ wrote:
Ps. I just hate people who hate other people because they're not like them.
Be yourself. Live your own life.
i do not hate them, i dislike them and get on with my life (trying not to have people like that in my life, or minimize contact to only professionally needed interactions)
WaldoJ wrote:
Hating someone who is religious, atheist, or agnostic is almost as bad as hating someone who drinks, smokes or is a homosexual.
yes!
WaldoJ wrote:
Pps. I agree completely with religion being taught only to adults.
But not adults in AA meetings or any anonymous meetings.
Or any mental institutions or anywhere where it's easier to brainwash people.
Quote:
why not? I think inspiriing people to do good things and / or teaching people how to become better as a person, giving them the skills to make the world a better place for everybody is something we all should aspire to.
There's a difference between Charles Manson and a fantastic literary teacher who opens you up to great books and shows you how fantastic mankind really is. I was talking about charlie. Almost all of my urgh examples are based on evil.
I should be more clearer next (but walls of text suck!!!!). Im building ikea stuff and quitting smoking and it's hot and humid.
Ppps. You can never be an ex-nintendiot!!!! You're either N or you're out! And once your N, you never get out!
Atheism = lack of faith in a god. Nothing else, no dogmas, no doctrines, no common values under an umbrella. It doesn't include anything else. Most atheists don't give a shit about religion one way or the other.
Anti-religion = aggressive stance towards religion and religious people. Separate from atheism. This is where Richard Dawkins etc. are and to some extent myself (I don't hate religious people but I really feel strongly against the abrahamic religious systems for many different reasons).
The only difference between an atheist and a christian is that the christian has faith in god, the atheist does not.
Btw, I interpreted your comment as putting atheism on the same level, opposite religion, which is of course wrong.
It's funny and it's poignant. And he basically improvised the entire speech. He sure was a smart guy.
Another very good part:
Quote:
I want to pick up on a few other things that came around today. I was fascinated by Larry (again), talking about tautology, because there's an argument that I remember being stumped by once, to which I couldn't come up with a reply, because I was so puzzled by the challenge and couldn't quite figure it out. A guy said to me, 'yes, but the whole theory of evolution is based on a tautology: that which survives, survives'
This is tautological, therefore it doesn't mean anything. I thought about that for a while and it finally occurred to me that a tautology is something that if it means nothing, not only that no information has gone into it but that no consequence has come out of it. So, we may have accidentally stumbled upon the ultimate answer; it's the only thing, the only force, arguably the most powerful of which we are aware, which requires no other input, no other support from any other place, is self evident, hence tautological, but nevertheless astonishingly powerful in its effects.
It's hard to find anything that corresponds to that and I therefore put it at the beginning of one of my books. I reduced it to what I thought were the bare essentials, which are very similar to the ones you came up with earlier, which were “anything that happens happens, anything that in happening causes something else to happen causes something else to happen and anything that in happening causes itself to happen again, happens again”.
In fact you don't even need the second two because they flow from the first one, which is self-evident and there's nothing else you need to say; everything else flows from that. So, I think we have in our grasp here a fundamental, ultimate truth, against which there is no gain-saying. It was spotted by the guy who said this is a tautology. Yes, it is, but it's a unique tautology in that it requires no information to go in but an infinite amount of information comes out of it. So I think that it is arguably therefore the prime cause of everything in the Universe. Big claim, but I feel I'm talking to a sympathetic audience.
Some funny shit:
Quote:
The other thing that comes out of that vision of the Universe is that it turns out to be composed almost entirely and rather worryingly, of nothing. Wherever you look there is nothing, with occasional tiny, tiny little specks of rock or light. But nevertheless, by watching the way these tiny little specks behave in the vast nothingness, we begin to divine certain principles, certain laws, like gravity and so forth. So that was, if you like, the macroscopic view of the universe, which came from the first age of sand.
The next age of sand is the microscopic one. We put glass lenses into microscopes and started to look down at the microscopic view of the Universe. Then we began to understand that when we get down to the sub-atomic level, the solid world we live in also consists, again rather worryingly, of almost nothing and that wherever we do find something it turns out not to be actually something, but only the probability that there may be something there.
Hmm respect does mean some inherited appraise. In regard to religion I have none. On the other hand I don't think that atheists need to revert to unnecessary personal offending of religious people.
Reminds me of those two episodes of South Park with Richard Dawkins. Here it is was the other way around. A well respected scientist was made fun of in a humiliating way. I might have said on this forum before: "No one has the right to be not offended". But there are limits. If you make fun of someone at least use the ideas of this person to mock him/her. But South Park was never known for good artwork or good voice acting and there is nothing intellectual about it.
Something else from freedom of religion we came to the freedom to be not religious. And now we arrived here I rather see religion gone but hmm freedom of religion. Like so many liberal ideas this one is flawed.
Hmm respect does mean some inherited appraise. In regard to religion I have none. On the other hand I don't think that atheists need to revert to unnecessary personal offending of religious people.
Reminds me of those two episodes of South Park with Richard Dawkins. Here it is was the other way around. A well respected scientist was made fun of in a humiliating way. I might have said on this forum before: "No one has the right to be not offended". But there are limits. If you make fun of someone at least use the ideas of this person to mock him/her. But South Park was never known for good artwork or good voice acting and there is nothing intellectual about it.
Something else from freedom of religion we came to the freedom to be not religious. And now we arrived here I rather see religion gone but hmm freedom of religion. Like so many liberal ideas this one is flawed.
Richard Dawkins criticizes religion just like any other idea. Yet it's only religion that promotes ridiculously defensive behavior from believers and non-believers alike due to some indoctrinated "respect" for religion and faith.
Douglas Adams wrote:
In the case of an idea, if we think 'Here is an idea that is protected by holiness or sanctity', what does it mean? Why should it be that it's perfectly legitimate to support the Labour party or the Conservative party, Republicans or Democrats, this model of economics versus that, Macintosh instead of Windows, but to have an opinion about how the Universe began, about who created the Universe, no, that's holy?
What does that mean?
Why do we ring-fence that for any other reason other than that we've just got used to doing so? There's no other reason at all, it's just one of those things that crept into being and once that loop gets going it's very, very powerful. So, we are used to not challenging religious ideas but it's very interesting how much of a furore Richard creates when he does it! Everybody gets absolutely frantic about it because you're not allowed to say these things. Yet when you look at it rationally there is no reason why those ideas shouldn't be as open to debate as any other, except that we have agreed somehow between us that they shouldn't be.
So, you discussed how our universe started to exsist.
What I find even more interesting is, how will its existance end. And what comes "after" (I guess there`s no after if there is no time )
Those WBs are great - If you wouldn`t know better, you could think it`s one huge troll organisation.
yeah, but you got a pretty good idea, why you better not "discuss" this topic with religious nuts - and if you decide to do nevertheless, this topic delivers some decent arguments.
Last edited by AwE on Sat, 16th Jul 2011 14:41; edited 1 time in total
yeah, but you got a pretty good idea, why you better not "discuss" this topic with religous nuts - and if decide to do nevertheless, this topic delivers some decent arguments.
Signature/Avatar nuking: none (can be changed in your profile)
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but I am sure that I am right. 
God bless you 
We're almost there when it comes to understanding us. But now we're not. So shhhhh for now. In 5 years it's going to be awesome. I just hope my religious girlfriend isn't going to do something crazy.
