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 Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 13:27 Post subject: Transphobia or scientific objectivism? |
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Science over feefees, I agree. But what about mentally ill people demanding to be considered a different sex than they were born? Suddenly inclusivity is the ultimate virtue? Or biological males wrecking females in spots?
Let's be consistent!
Anyway, those quotes from the law don't say anything close to the headlines. Fake news?
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couleur
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 14:20 Post subject: |
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What do you care what sex people consider themselves to be and what does it have to do with topic? Do they hurt your feefees?
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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Frant
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 14:30 Post subject: |
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They scare him like the little closet troll he is. Fear makes you hate things and VGA is one fearful individual.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73194
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 14:35 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | | They scare him like the little retard he is. |
fxd |
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 14:39 Post subject: |
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What about ? And what about ?
I doubt biology students are allowed to distort scientific evidence according to their sexual orientation, are they ?
Which headlines are you talking about ? The Reddit thread/local news title is correct.
The bill states that any sort of religious belief content in an academic work won't favour nor penalize the student.
R5 5600X - 3070FE - 16GB DDR4 3600 - Asus B550 TUF Gaming Plus - BeQuiet Straight Power 11 750W - Pure Base 500DX
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 15:04 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | | They scare him like the little closet troll he is. Fear makes you hate things and VGA is one fearful individual. |
'
I'd say you're just like him though, just with the opposite opinion. People are blind like that these days, with their "true" righteous opinions and all.
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Frant
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Posts: 24603
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 15:21 Post subject: |
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| Stormwolf wrote: | | Frant wrote: | | They scare him like the little closet troll he is. Fear makes you hate things and VGA is one fearful individual. |
'
I'd say you're just like him though, just with the opposite opinion. People are blind like that these days, with their "true" righteous opinions and all. |
And what is my "opposite opinion"? Do you have any proof to substantiate your claim or are you just pulling the polarized black/white card out of your ass?
In case you didn't understand that last sentence I'll make it easy for you: your rhetorical device consist of the fact that I disagree with VGA and call him on it and you drew the conclusion that I must be the exact opposite. That's a very very narrow view you have there.
And what is it that I fear and thus hate?
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 15:51 Post subject: |
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| VGAdeadcafe wrote: | | couleur wrote: | | What do you care what sex people consider themselves to be and what does it have to do with topic? Do they hurt your feefees? |
Are these your arguments?
"What do YOU care about X?"
"u mad? hurt your feefees?"
"little retard"
"Closet troll is scared!!"
Just goes to show how much the ... progressive-minded are losing the culture war. |
couleur asked you about the equivalence you're drawing between people which have gender disphoria (aka "mentally ill" people... ) and the subject at hand, which is a legitimate question you've yet to answer. You well knew you were drawing a mediocre comparison when you brought this up with little reason other than trying to trigger people. Otherwise, substantiate your claim and don't whine about it.
Seeing you complain about obvious jabs and "u mad fefes" is the pot calling the kettle black, you can't go around joking and using memes left and right and be surprised when it comes back to bite you in the ass, and expect people to be sympathetic all the while. Which I still manage to be as I have this impression that you're somewhat honest most of the time.
Of course, you're not the only one doing this and some users on the other side of the argument can do it as well. Difference is you do it near constantly.
Not that I personally approve of easy insults on either side of the argument, but it comes as no surprise that the "progressive-minded" forum users are no longer willing to actually hold a debate, they've learned better a long while ago.
You can well hold sensible opinions, we just have to make you spill them out throughout the course of dozens of back and forth answers, which gets increasingly tiresome.
Do you believe the idea of "culture wars" to be central to American politics ?
Last edited by TheZor on Sat, 16th Nov 2019 16:09; edited 2 times in total
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couleur
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 23:15 Post subject: |
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It is a metaphorical war, a clash of ideas, it is called the "culture war", I didn't come up with it, don't pretend you are an alien.
The comparison I made has to do with objective, scientific truth. Religious views and dogmas have no place in "science" (for example school assignments). But why don't the same people (or progressive outlets) that pretend to be outraged about this ... act on the same basis when it comes to other issues. They will insist that there aren't two genders, that people, even minors, should "change" their genders and people that don't accept it (or deadname them) should be prosecuted by the law. Also, the army should not consider this a mental illness and should accept these people and cater to their medical needs and procedures. Also, businesses should not be able to fire such people or avoid employing them. And of course they should bake their damn cake. And they should be able to use whichever bathroom they want. And be able to compete against females.
Everything I mentioned has occured and is an issue of discussion, lawmaking etc. Where is the realist/scientific approach in such issues?
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 23:33 Post subject: |
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You also want to somehow shove immigrants and pinpoint specifically Muslim beliefs as clashing with science in this discussion so you can kill 3 birds with one stone?
I think what they are trying to say is they are discussing how it is objectively dangerous territory as as a whole as it relates to the topic. You are discussing specific things you dislike and already have a large bone to pick with, and using how it relates to the topic as justification to pick it here.
I mean you did take it from: Ohio is having conflict with religious beliefs in school
To you going: Companies can fire trans people if they want and they need to learn to fucking bake a damn cake themselves!
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 23:40 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: | | You also want to somehow shove immigrants and pinpoint specifically Muslim beliefs as clashing with science in this discussion so you can kill 3 birds with one stone? |
Where did I do that?! Are you putting words in my mouth for the millionth time? I stand by my previous post, don't divert from that. I talked about trans and gender issues because it is a prime example where scientific objectivity could be applied.
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 23:41 Post subject: |
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| VGAdeadcafe wrote: |
Where did I do that?! |
....In almost every topic you can?
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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couleur
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Nov 2019 23:55 Post subject: |
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I am not in this war of yours, my existence is not threatened, so I am not in a war. My existence is not threatened by any of these political developments you are talking about. Also nature isn‘t a robot factory. The rest is a complex mash up on hormones, biology, evolution, culture, society and politics. I don't support specifically catering for everyones snowflake needs because people have to learn to live and overcome adversity by themselves as it forms character. But that doesn‘t mean I think people that born in a slightly different biological or psychological configuration don‘t exist or that they should suffer by not (biologically or psychologically) fitting in a definition set by a specific societal context.
Your idea of „objective truths“ is a little naive.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 00:13 Post subject: |
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Stop acting like I am a crazy person who talks about some war ... it is just a phrase
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_war
And people can have any legal sexual preference they want, as long as they don't deny reality, for example being a male or a female. Because that brings about the issues I mentioned earlier. And gender dysphoria is a mental disorder, not something stunning and brave that should be encouraged. And hormone therapy to kids should be illegal.
That's my idea of scientific objectivism.
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couleur
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 00:29 Post subject: |
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Again, I don‘t care about this war of yours, I don‘t think it exists. People who do have an interest in creating divisions.
Also, the reality of male and female is alot more complex than you think. I agree that hormone therapy to kids is highly problematic and should be illegal. I know its an emotional case brought up by conservatives to make a point but its the other way around. And since you mention it. Looking deeper here should unveil the complexity of sex and gender. You would probably learn something.
„scientific objectivism“? At least look that up. Its not a simple claim to make.
edit: Now I see it: „My idea of scientific objectivism.“ Nice oxymoron.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 00:46 Post subject: |
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DXWarlock
VIP Member
Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 01:01 Post subject: |
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And one topic, and you are WAY off of it.
IF you want to discuss the merits of gender disassociation start a new topic.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Sun, 17th Nov 2019 01:02; edited 1 time in total
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couleur
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Posts: 14262
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 01:02 Post subject: |
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I see. We‘re on „that“ level of scientific objectivism.
And I agree with DX. We‘re off topic. Lets open another one and call it the Blue Oyster bar.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 09:59 Post subject: |
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| VGAdeadcafe wrote: | It is a metaphorical war, a clash of ideas, it is called the "culture war", I didn't come up with it, don't pretend you are an alien.
The comparison I made has to do with objective, scientific truth. Religious views and dogmas have no place in "science" (for example school assignments). But why don't the same people (or progressive outlets) that pretend to be outraged about this ... act on the same basis when it comes to other issues. They will insist that there aren't two genders, that people, even minors, should "change" their genders and people that don't accept it (or deadname them) should be prosecuted by the law. Also, the army should not consider this a mental illness and should accept these people and cater to their medical needs and procedures. Also, businesses should not be able to fire such people or avoid employing them. And of course they should bake their damn cake. And they should be able to use whichever bathroom they want. And be able to compete against females.
Everything I mentioned has occured and is an issue of discussion, lawmaking etc. Where is the realist/scientific approach in such issues? |
There is a variety of opinions about these matters, even amongst the "same people/progressive outlets", and it was well exemplified every time we talked about these matters in these forums. For instance, I saw a lot of caution towards any sort of medical sex change treatment for children (basically hostility against it) - and if you bothered reading more into it, you could see that no medical treatment would actually done to a minor, only the liberty to dress up like he wanted was actually at hand.
But sure, the world resolves around the most extreme/biased outlets/twitter accounts on all sides of the spectrum, and we, forum users, should be held responsible for any of their exaggerations. We don't even post these articles/tweets/forum posts since we don't give a fuck about them, yet we have to defend them because we are on the "same side", somehow. And gosh, am I glad I don't follow this kind of bullshit, even for shits and giggles.. what an absolute waste of time !
But when you post the same kind of content for your side of things yourself, we can't hold you responsible for posting them or their content - "it's not my words dude !" "don't put us all in the same basket !". 
Don't forget pretty much all of us are from Europe, not the US, we don't care all that much about a society that isn't ours - one could easily believe you're from the US considering how deeply invested you are in every one of its political/sociological issue.
Ain't no social media addict, no sir !
---
What's your take on homosexuality VGA ? Is it a physical, a mental disorder ? If it's not either, what is it ?
I'm not saying you're homophobic, let's just be "scientifically objective" since that's your idea of things.
By the way, nice thread derailing dude, you ain't no troll, that's for sure !  Still waiting on that "fake news" claim explanation from you !
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JackQ
Non-expret in Derps lagunge
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 10:47 Post subject: |
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nice conjunction.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 11:21 Post subject: |
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13508
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 11:21 Post subject: |
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couleur
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 12:08 Post subject: |
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@Yondaime I think the issue with trans people in sports is only a hook. Of course there need to be more defined rules when it comes to competition in sports otherwise its meaningless. But the underlying issue is a different one.
It has to do with how we treat people who for hereditary biological or psychological reasons cannot simply conform to the classical concepts of gender. The issue in sports shows how between our traditional concepts and reality there are some issues.
Because gender is not a simple concept.
Sex is defined by the reproductive organs. And obviously evolution has brought forth two sexes that need to have sexual intercourse in order to reproduce. In an "ideal" (relating to the simple idea of what a sex is) reality, every human beeing has exactly one of two set of sexual organs in conjunction with its "proper" hormonal balance. But nature is anything but ideal, so there are variations (for many different reasons) and sometimes these variations are so strong that people feel different than what they physically look. It has alot to do with genetics and hormones which govern how a human develops and feels. I know this is a difficult science, and a very young one. And I have only a limited view on it.
So of course, we define two distinct sexes. Ideally. And the very large majority of people conform to this.
Now there is also gender. And simply saying: There are two genders doesnt mean shit. So that is a whole different story. There is no positive scientific truth to be found in a concept that results from tradition and is subject to cultural influences. In history of mankind and throughout different societies on this planet, the roles, functions and definitions or paradigms of gender differ greatly.
Now of course we also need a set of rules which are the same for everyone so we can function as a society. But since we live in an open society, every minortiy of people has the right to voice their position. Traditionally (in western society) people who did not conform to the normative concepts of men and women of their time, simply shut up and became priests or nuns ( jk ) or celibataries or whatever. Nowadays its a little different. For one, we know alot more about biology and sexualty than we did in the last centuries so our definitions adapted and secondly we had a wave of deconstructivism in the 20th century. Remember when in the 70ies women were not allowed to have a bank account without the consent of their men? But men could. Because our concept of what a woman is, changed. Our concepts of gender change constantly. And even more nowadays, when huge advances in biology and neurology challenge traditional views.
It may seem like a copernican revolution to some people who are not used to think about concepts in such a way.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 12:37 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 15:31; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 15:41 Post subject: |
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People have lost their goddamned minds
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73194
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Nov 2019 19:34 Post subject: |
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| couleur wrote: | @Yondaime I think the issue with trans people in sports is only a hook. Of course there need to be more defined rules when it comes to competition in sports otherwise its meaningless. But the underlying issue is a different one.
It has to do with how we treat people who for hereditary biological or psychological reasons cannot simply conform to the classical concepts of gender. The issue in sports shows how between our traditional concepts and reality there are some issues.
Because gender is not a simple concept.
Sex is defined by the reproductive organs. And obviously evolution has brought forth two sexes that need to have sexual intercourse in order to reproduce. In an "ideal" (relating to the simple idea of what a sex is) reality, every human beeing has exactly one of two set of sexual organs in conjunction with its "proper" hormonal balance. But nature is anything but ideal, so there are variations (for many different reasons) and sometimes these variations are so strong that people feel different than what they physically look. It has alot to do with genetics and hormones which govern how a human develops and feels. I know this is a difficult science, and a very young one. And I have only a limited view on it.
So of course, we define two distinct sexes. Ideally. And the very large majority of people conform to this.
Now there is also gender. And simply saying: There are two genders doesnt mean shit. So that is a whole different story. There is no positive scientific truth to be found in a concept that results from tradition and is subject to cultural influences. In history of mankind and throughout different societies on this planet, the roles, functions and definitions or paradigms of gender differ greatly.
Now of course we also need a set of rules which are the same for everyone so we can function as a society. But since we live in an open society, every minortiy of people has the right to voice their position. Traditionally (in western society) people who did not conform to the normative concepts of men and women of their time, simply shut up and became priests or nuns ( jk ) or celibataries or whatever. Nowadays its a little different. For one, we know alot more about biology and sexualty than we did in the last centuries so our definitions adapted and secondly we had a wave of deconstructivism in the 20th century. Remember when in the 70ies women were not allowed to have a bank account without the consent of their men? But men could. Because our concept of what a woman is, changed. Our concepts of gender change constantly. And even more nowadays, when huge advances in biology and neurology challenge traditional views.
It may seem like a copernican revolution to some people who are not used to think about concepts in such a way. |
My problem with the "transphobia" nomenclature is—or any "*phobia" really—is that it is a cheap way to shut a scientific and fact-based discussion for political activism and convenience.
Gender is a psychological construct with inputs from culture, environment, psyche and hormone production in the brain and glands. In that sense, I don't have a problem with different "gender" constructs, just like I don't have a problem with people's names, or people changing their names.
Where the problem starts is with the recent rise of insane political activism, from outside and inside of academia, turning biology into a "controversial" issue. My previous two sentences are considered in a growing number of circles as insensitive, hate speech, phobia, etc. To pander to these insane activists, politics and social norms all over the world are bending logic. Did you know, if you say "Bruce Jenner" on twitter, there is more chance than not that you will be banned? If I change my name, why isn't it the case too? Did you know that saying "there are two sexes" is controversial in a growing number of circles?
Since "fuck politically correct", let's define what normal is, in the sense of biology. In order for the vast majority of mammals to mate, including humans, you need a male and a female specimens. This is how we have evolved. The vast majority of mammals are born either male or female, and the vast majority of those look to mate with the opposite sex. With this in mind, anything not conforming this system is "anormal". But even having a conversation about this is considered taboo. Why? If we acknowledge some "anormity", does this mean we should kill gays or discriminate against? Of course not. Being born deaf or blind is also "anormal", but there is a lot less taboo in stating this. Likewise, we shouldn't murder or discriminate against these people either, as much as possible. But if we continue with the blind analogy, imaging that the same kind of rhetoric and activism was applied toward the hearing members of the public. Imagine being accused as "blindphobic" because you are sending an SMS or reading a book. Imagine requiring that all libraries and book shops, no matter how large and small, have equal amount of braille books or audiobook cassettes, so as to not "discriminate" against the blind. Or being accused of being "ableist" for smiling to your coworker, because the blind cannot see it. These sound absurd, yet we find ourselves in similar absurdities when sex and gender is concerned.
Regarding gender, the lines are even more blurred. "Gender" is something unique to humans psyche, whereas other animals' "genders" are strictly sex-based. There are some hormonal-induced sexual dimorphisms in animals, but those are strictly biology-related. And even in those cases, only the male/female characteristics are sometimes not as pronounced (e.g. a fame bird is colorful, whereas "normally", the male birds of that species are the colorful ones). But there is no occurrence in nature where male specimen acts as a female. Under very rare cases, hermaphroditism exists, but, too, is considered rare and "anormal". (BTW "hermaphroditism" to describe the same conditions with humans is now too considered offensive. )
What is bothering me the most is that people have become so weal culturally and psychologically. If they are called the wrong pronoun or required to go their biological sex' bathrooms, it might bring about a depression which leads to suicide. This makes no sense to me. We are a society that is so devoid of real issues that our psyche is turning into mush. These issues are so insignificant, and instead of trying to culturally educate people to not pay attention to them, we are pushing a generation that is tying their entire identity into those issues. It boggles my mind. |
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