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Frant
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 Posted: Sun, 10th Oct 2010 01:48 Post subject: Re: New AMD GPU naming scheme confusing |
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| Frant wrote: | | Not sure if it will be a paper-launch since nVidia made sure to overbook silicon slices @ TSMC making sure AMD suffers a shortage. |
Is that even legal? I would have thought there was some kind of legal precedent in place to prevent this kind of thing happening... else either camp could just pull this trick whenever they want and artificially cripple the stock of their rival.
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tonizito
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Oct 2010 01:54 Post subject: |
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Maybe those rumors mentioning a postpone of the 6xxx series launch for a few weeks are true then.
If so, lame move by nV. 
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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Frant
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Werelds
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| Posted: Sun, 10th Oct 2010 10:38 Post subject: |
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AMD haven't had a strict naming scheme. Evergreen was different from RV770, that was in turn from RV670, and so on. Neither have NVIDIA with Fermi though; there was no GTX 270 or 265 and the 260 wasn't a major redesign over its predecessor like the 460 is either. And obviously from the GF9 to GT200 was a big change as well 
AMD are naming them according to relative performance to the previous generation rather than performance within the series.
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Frant
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Frant
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Oct 2010 08:14 Post subject: |
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Leaked benchmarks of 6850 & 6870 (from china of course):
6850 performs like a 5830
6870 performs like a 5850
These are test cards though so final number of SPU's and frequencies are still not known. Personally I'm more interested in the 69-series, the new performance level. However, pricing will be interesting as well as the changes in the tessellation unit.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Oct 2010 08:59 Post subject: Re: New AMD GPU naming scheme confusing |
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| Frant wrote: | | Not sure if it will be a paper-launch since nVidia made sure to overbook silicon slices @ TSMC making sure AMD suffers a shortage. |
Do you have any sources for this?
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Werelds
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Frant
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Oct 2010 14:07 Post subject: Re: New AMD GPU naming scheme confusing |
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| FastMemFirst wrote: | | Frant wrote: | | Not sure if it will be a paper-launch since nVidia made sure to overbook silicon slices @ TSMC making sure AMD suffers a shortage. |
Do you have any sources for this? |
At the time of the post I had, now I can't find it.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Sat, 16th Oct 2010 21:50 Post subject: |
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Frant
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Oct 2010 08:18 Post subject: Re: New AMD GPU naming scheme confusing |
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| FastMemFirst wrote: | | Frant wrote: | | FastMemFirst wrote: |
Do you have any sources for this? |
At the time of the post I had, now I can't find it. |
all right, maybe you flushed it down meanwhile  |
Only down your throat.
http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/07/29/nvidias-mistakes-catch-bottom-line/
| Quote: | If you look at inventory, that obsolete product pile starts to show up in painful ways. At the end of Q1, ATI was selling everything they could make, only shortages of wafer starts by TSMC capped sales. If ATI could have gotten more wafers, they would have sold more cards. Nvidia on the other hand had inventory build up.
Nvidia blamed this on packaging times and related issues, but a quick check shows that the value inventory spike is likely more than the value of the entire run of parts that spike was blamed on. Curious. Given the vagaries of the Nvidia Q1 conference call where that blame was laid, it is unlikely that there will ever be clarity on this point.
A much more likely explanation is that the obsolete products mentioned above, all but the top two products from Nvidia at the end of Q1, simply stopped selling. To fix this lack of sales, Nvidia looks to have tried the same trick that failed so miserably the last time they faced such a problem, stuff the channel with lower-end G200 parts. |
(yes, from SemiAccurate, but I'm still looking for the original article)
I don't see what the issue is though, it's a strategic decision to overbook wafers to get an upper hand on your competition. nV has lost tons of market share (AMD had 51% last tally) and have to do anything they can to not lose more.
Random post:
| Quote: |
1. AMD has very good yields but not enough wafers. There's absolutely nothing they could do about the situation after they've made the deal. But given TSMC's 40nm problems, AMD could've been a little bit more skeptical, and they should've been. Am I not right? I'm not talking about overbook or something. But a little headroom wouldn't hurt much especially when all the odds are against TSMC's ambitious plan, right?
2. nVIDIA has secured much much more wafers, perhaps more than they needed and couldn't put them to good use -- that's another story. But they could still re-tape GF100 to make the yield better, couldn't they?
So, my take is AMD has supply problems while nVIDIA is the one with production problems. |
And a final quote showing that nV booked more wafers than they could use:
| Quote: | | To make matters worse, sources in both Santa Clara and the far east tell SemiAccurate that Nvidia is canceling wafer starts on 40nm. ATI can't get enough, the industry is on massive allocation, and Nvidia is giving up some of those precious wafer starts. Ironically, these excess wafers will probably go to ATI, a company who's products do not seem to be affected by those darn prevailing economic conditions or RAM fluctuations. Imagine that! |
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
Last edited by Frant on Sun, 17th Oct 2010 08:37; edited 1 time in total
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Frant
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Oct 2010 08:18 Post subject: |
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After weeks of speculations and false rumors we at NordicHardware have managed to dig up the most important details on AMD's new graphics card series, Radeon HD 6800. Targeting the mid-range segment AMD will launch Radeon HD 6850 and HD 6870 on October 18th.
Back in August we could confirm that AMD would stir things up by naming the mid-range series Radeon HD 6800. The GPU "Barts" is the successor to Juniper GPU of the Radeon HD 5700 series, but it is being moved up a notch. The list of specifications that was leaked at several sites last week said that Barts would launch as Radeon HD 6700, which made us wonder about the authenticity of the document. We have had it confirmed that our previous information on Barts and Radeon HD 6800 were correct, which we can now back up with detailed specifications and launch dates.
AMD Radeon HD 6850 (Barts Pro) and HD 6870 (Barts XT) will launch on October 18th (19th in some countries, if nothing gets changed in the last minute) and the new Northern Islands architecture is tuned and optimized for better performance per watt. We should not expect any revolutionary improvements over current models, but more on that soon.
Barts will bring at most 960 stream processors, which should be proof enough that this is a mid-range circuit, and not to play with the big boys. Little brother Radeon HD 6850 will settle for 800 stream processors and lower clock frequency, but AMD has also revised the texture units and efficiency of the stream processors, which makes the numbers a bit misleading when compared directly to previous generations.
Radeon HD 6870 will, according to reliable sources, perform better than today's Radeon HD 5850. Not to bad for a card that is intended to replace Radeon HD 5770, but at the same time makes the naming scheme a bit confusing.
Little brother Radeon HD 6850 will in turn be a bit slower than Radeon HD 5830, but consume a lot less power. This isn't all bad, but it will be confusing for buyers as the new mid-range model should outperform the lower ranked cards of the previous generation.
As we mentioned above, AMD has focused on performance/per watt with the new architecture. With the same 40nm technology it has refurnished and tweaked the Evergreen architecture and managed to find a lot of extra performance. The power consumption of Radeon HD 6850 will be well below 150 watt, around 120 watt according to our sources. While Radeon HD 6870 will be sucking well above 150 watt, which puts it on par with Radeon HD 5850, a card it should outperform with margin to spare.
The biggest reason AMD starts off the new family with Barts is the market focus. Radeon HD 6850 and HD 6870 has been trained to hunt down and kill NVIDIA GeForce GTX 460, the graphics card NVIDIA is building its volume sales upon. AMD has no strong competitor for GTX 460 today, but it hopes to change this with the Radeon HD 6800 series.
GeForce GTX 460 is also the reason for the confusing naming scheme. The GeForce GTX 400 series was built upon NVIDIA's GF100 GPU, but when NVIDIA launched GTX 460 with the stripped down GF104 GPU and still put it part of the GTX 400 series AMD saw no other solution but to follow and move up its mid-range cards in the hierarchy. On a positive note the coming Caymen series, to replace Radeon HD 5800 in the performance segment, will also move up the ladder to avoid any confusion within the own ranks.
AMD Radeon HD 6870 will according to sources to NordicHardware be a pure reference product that will be sold ready-to-ship from AMD to partners. In other words, packaging and stickers on the reference cooler will be the only difference at launch.
AMD Radeon HD 6850 on the other hand will be available in tailored suits from the major partners, which will hopefully result in some unorthodox solutions and cool third-party designs.
We don't have any concrete pricing to offer just yet, but considering AMD is countering GeForce GTX 460 they should appear in the $150-250 segment.
http://www.nordichardware.com/news/71-graphics/41251-amd-radeon-hd-6870-and-6850-launches-on-october-18th.html
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Oct 2010 11:41 Post subject: |
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$250 for a card that is only marginally better than the 5850 strikes me as a tad on the expensive side (especially here in Norway where it will end up as the equivalent in NOK; 2600 or so) But let's just wait and see what the benchmarks bring. If anything, this should force the prices of the GTX460 and 5850 down even further ^_^
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Oct 2010 12:02 Post subject: |
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We can't keep pushing for new DX revisions, the industry is barely adopting PREVIOUS ones. DX10 games are coming further now, but the newest DX11 tech is still very much unsupported for the vast majority of titles. I blame the consoles and/or lazy developers, since neither PS3 or 360 support even DX10 tech - most devs are just too lazy to code DX10 paths for the PC variant of the games.
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tonizito
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Oct 2010 12:12 Post subject: |
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Some technical stuff about the 68XX series:
http://www.pcper.com/comments.php?nid=9351
Just a little longer for the NDA is lifted and then we'll know more.
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Oct 2010 13:07 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | | $250 for a card that is only marginally better than the 5850 strikes me as a tad on the expensive side |
| Mortibus wrote: | so u pay more for less just coz it's using less wattage? pretty sure whoever able to afford this stuff able to pay his electrical bill 
if it was refresh of gtx 480/470 etc i would understand, but amd boards already run cool enough |
Don't forget that this is the _weakest_ of them all. If they really were able to squeeze the performance of a fictional card between the 5850 and 5870 into a package that's a third smaller than these cards, then that means Cayman should easily be 50% faster than Cypress, not to mention what Antilles is gonna do.
I expect Barts Pro to be a direct competitor to the GTX 460 1GB, with a price to match. I don't think NVIDIA has much margin left on the 460, so they can't drop them that much anymore. Barts XT can then nicely fill the gap above that, what the GTX 465 or 470 SHOULD have been.
But who knows, maybe all these expected MSRP's are completely wrong and AMD will be able to drop lower, like they did with Evergreen. I wouldn't hold my breath though, because AMD damn well knows the shops will capitalise on it if the cards are good, and they've simply got a pretty dominant position right now. Evergreen did well enough for the shops to sell way above the MSRP, the same could happen now.
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Oct 2010 16:09 Post subject: |
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| me7 wrote: |
Where I live, a Radeon 5870 costs 300-320€ at the moment. If ATI releases a 6870 that performs almost the same at 250€ while producing less heat and therefore less fan noise that's a pretty good deal IMO.
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Actually, the 6870 *isn't* the successor to the 5870, which is what the confusion is about. The 68xx are actually successors of the 57xx series, just with more power. The 6850 takes over the 5830 and the 6870 is equivalent of the 5850.
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tonizito
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Oct 2010 16:30 Post subject: |
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The 58XX prices will also fall down with the release of the 68XX series and even more when the 69XX series are out of the door. Still, I'll probably be fine with my 4890 for another year or so.
Besides I'm completely broke right now and with the shitstorm that's about to begin here I won't be spending money in hardware and games anytime soon (sorry FO: NV  ).
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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| Posted: Sun, 17th Oct 2010 19:05 Post subject: |
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According to this benchmark, the 6870 is comparable to the 5870 in DX9 and somewhere between the 5850 and 5870 in DX10.
But since the benchmark is not "official" it could turn out that the real 6870 performs slower, more like a 5850. We'll have to wait and see.
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Werelds
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