Except that Bioshock completely lacked RPG elements. If Bioshock was an RPG then for instance that Wolverine game from Raven was also RPG. It was like SS in terms of gameplay dynamics, storytelling etc, but no inv, no stats, just some lame upgrades.
I wasn't hoping for a System Shock clone per se, but definitely a new IP. Bioshock was ruined IMO with that piece of shit sequel but still they played it safe and went for IP milking.
When a new IP from Irrational/looking Glass/Ken Levine is released, it's remembered. This is just another cocksucking mothefucking sequel. Die.
Except that Bioshock completely lacked RPG elements. If Bioshock was an RPG then for instance that Wolverine game from Raven was also RPG. It was like SS in terms of gameplay dynamics, storytelling etc, but no inv, no stats, just some lame upgrades.
I wasn't hoping for a System Shock clone per se, but definitely a new IP. Bioshock was ruined IMO with that piece of shit sequel but still they played it safe and went for IP milking.
When a new IP from Irrational/looking Glass/Ken Levine is released, it's remembered. This is just another cocksucking mothefucking sequel. Die.
Calm down please But yes, the Bioshock games were watered down on the RPG compared to SS, I think we can thank Gaming being mainstream these days, and the last game I played that felt a bit like the good old advanced RPG's was Dragon Age, other than that I can't really think of something like that since Fallout 3 and Oblivion were simply to easy and "Streamlined" (thank among other things, level scaling).
PS. Imho, the often used "We have streamlined a franchise to make a better game" should actually read like "We have Mainstreamed all future games to make better profits" Sad gaming world we live in today.
Bioshock 2 sucked, but it wasn't made by Irrational. This one seems more promising (ignoring the rampant cynicism among the hump-grunts)
Here's a little more info from Ken Levine himself about the thoughts behind Bioshock: Infinite:
Quote:
Keeping secrets is hard.
The last three years for me have been dominated by a single question: “What are you guys doing there?”
Some of you were pretty certain it was an X-COM game, which I can now safely say it is not. It is also not part of the Freedom Force, SWAT, X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter, Kingdom Hearts or Yar’s Revenge franchises. The time for discussing what Irrational Games is NOT doing is over.
Today we announce BioShock Infinite.
That’s right, this is a BioShock game.
It’s a sequel.
But it’s also not a sequel.
Let me explain.
At Irrational Games, we believe that in order to fulfill expectations, you have to defy expectations.
When we completed the original BioShock, we felt we had said all we wanted to say with Rapture, but we weren’t done with the idea that is BioShock. BioShock is so much more than a story of a single place or a single time. We had so much more we wanted to say.
There are two core principles for us that define a BioShock game. First, it has to be set in a world that is both fantastical and yet also grounded in the human experience. Second, it has to provide gamers with a large set of tools, and then set them loose in an environment that empowers them to solve problems in their own way.
It would have been easier for us to go back to the well. We could have taken the easy route. We could have simply done more of the same, but we would not have been true to ourselves as game developers. Making the original BioShock was hard. We challenged ourselves every step of the way, and we tossed aside many elements and ideas simply because they weren’t good enough.
So when we started the sequel, we said to ourselves: “We want to expand on those core principles, but beyond that, there are no sacred cows. Everything else that people know or think they know about BioShock is open for negotiation.”
You will find yourself in a completely new world. Columbia is not an unknown secret city at the bottom of the sea. It’s a creation of an America transforming from a regional agrarian collection of states into a world power with global reach.
You now play an actual character, and not a cypher who is unaware of his own identity. You are Booker Dewitt, a particular character with an established history, with a voice you will hear as he talks to himself and others in the game.
You’ve come to Columbia for a reason: to find a mysterious young woman named Elizabeth and bring her safely out of the city. She will travel with you, interact with you, and react to the situations you cause to happen, and through your relationship with her, we’re able to tell the story of this new and amazing world.
This world of Columbia presents radical differences in scale from what you are used to. You’re not crawling through corridors on the ocean floor, claustrophobic with the weight of the ocean bearing down on you. Instead you find yourself navigating through huge environments, zipping around on Sky-Lines at eighty miles per hour and getting into firefights at ranges of two thousand yards.
In fact, there is so much new and radical about BioShock Infinite that we simply can’t tell you all about it in one revelation. What we present to the world today is merely the tip of a very large iceberg. In the coming months we’ll begin to reveal more of what BioShock Infinite is all about and let the world know why we are so excited.
For now, we want to thank you all for your patience, and for sticking with us all these many months while we labored in silence.The time for silence is over. First up for the fans of this site is another episode of Irrational Behavior with Shawn Elliott that covers the announcement of BioShock Infinite and the work that led up to it. I’m sure you’ll dig it.
Down the road a bit, actual gameplay footage awaits. It’s something you’re going to want to watch more than once. Trust me on this one.
Apparently they've been working on this ever since Bioshock was released, completely oblivious to Bioshock 2 which was handled by 2K Marin (or whatever). If Ken Levine is on board, then Bioshock: Infinite have great promise.
Bioshock on the sky.what's next,Bioshock in Space?
kidding,looks nice will definitely try it out.
Actually, I think it is very likely that BS4 could be in space and it wouldn't surprise me if the third one has an ending that takes the city or part of it into space.
I mean, why not? Space is just another environment that would confine the player, and it wouldn't interfere with the story of BS1+2.
Unless it's a new universe, how in hell are they going to fit this story with the Rapture story?
I mean, how can the United States have technology to build a sky city in 1910s and the world stays exactly the same after two wars?
They built a city under the water where they found a way to change the way your DNA works, where they constructed sentries and loads of other things... Come on dude, obviously everything is a stretch with this universe.
It's not about the technology, it's about history.
Unless it's a new universe, how in hell are they going to fit this story with the Rapture story?
I mean, how can the United States have technology to build a sky city in 1910s and the world stays exactly the same after two wars?
They built a city under the water where they found a way to change the way your DNA works, where they constructed sentries and loads of other things... Come on dude, obviously everything is a stretch with this universe.
It's not about the technology, it's about history.
Apparently you have never been exposed to alternative history fiction. It's all about "What if...". It's common within a certain subgroup of Science Fiction, for instance writing about what would've happened if JFK was never killed, if the US Civil War had never happened etc. etc...
And your history is connected to the Bioshock universe how? What if the timeline is different from our universe? They can connect it very easily... Frant said it the best.
Stalinists, New Dealers, the dropping of Hiroshima's bomb in 1945, the three factors that led Andrew Ryan to build Rapture? That's pretty much our timeline until 1946.
They built a city under the water where they found a way to change the way your DNA works, where they constructed sentries and loads of other things... Come on dude, obviously everything is a stretch with this universe.
It's not about the technology, it's about history.
Apparently you have never been exposed to alternative history fiction. It's all about "What if...". It's common within a certain subgroup of Science Fiction, for instance writing about what would've happened if JFK was never killed, if the US Civil War had never happened etc. etc...
That's exactly the problem, Bioshock's background history is not alternate history until 1945. In Bioshock the Red Russia, the Great Depression and the Second World War still happens on the exact same way.
Bioshock on the sky.what's next,Bioshock in Space?
kidding,looks nice will definitely try it out.
Actually, I think it is very likely that BS4 could be in space and it wouldn't surprise me if the third one has an ending that takes the city or part of it into space.
I mean, why not? Space is just another environment that would confine the player, and it wouldn't interfere with the story of BS1+2.
come to think of it,there is already "Bioshock in Space",it's called System Shock
"Fuck Denuvo"
Your personal opinions != the rest of the forum
Last edited by JackQ on Fri, 13th Aug 2010 18:58; edited 1 time in total
The game isn't meant as a prequel or even related to Bioshock 1 and 2 in terms of story though is it?
(I think it was meant to be separate though still Bioshock in terms of name and how it plays.)
The game isn't meant as a prequel or even related to Bioshock 1 and 2 in terms of story though is it?
(I think it was meant to be separate though still Bioshock in terms of name and how it plays.)
Exactly! Make the same game again, only 10 years later :&
It's one thing asking for a remake of a game but they can't take the same premises again. Why? Freaking boring that's why.
(Though I wouldn't mind some more System Shock like RPG elements in the new Bioshock)
sabin1981 wrote:
Now you're just arguing semantics. Getting fucked in the ass with a broom stale is an "improvement" over getting stabbed in the eye with a fork
The game isn't meant as a prequel or even related to Bioshock 1 and 2 in terms of story though is it?
(I think it was meant to be separate though still Bioshock in terms of name and how it plays.)
That's what I got from it; Bioshock: Infinite is a spiritual successor without being story-bound by the first game in any way. Different setting, different characters, different story etc..
Anime ? Why not the film ? Was the anime different storywise from the film ?
Most people (kids..) here doesnt even seem to know about the first two Shock games that took place in space... so you can't possibly believe they know of a movie made in the 1920's
Massive post here, Joystiq video interview with Ken Levine about Bioshock: Infinite, 12th of August (this is the transcript):
Quote:
In an industry filled with rumors and leaks, last night's reveal of BioShock Infinite managed to take nearly everyone by surprise. After nearly three years of silence, designer Ken Levine and the Irrational Games team unveiled their new title -- an extension of the BioShock franchise. We had a chance to talk to Levine after the reveal to discuss his inspirations for the heavily guarded title, and why the team chose not to pursue a completely new IP. While BioShock Infinite may share a name with its predecessor, Levine explains how Infinite has the spirit of a completely new game. Watch our video interview above, or read the full transcription below.
Joystiq: BioShock went through a lot of prototypes, even late in development. How static has Infinite been?
Ken Levine: Unfortunately, we're no better at knowing exactly what we're doing at the very beginning than we were with BioShock. The notion of American exceptionalism, that didn't even exist until six or eight months ago. It was always a city in the sky from the very beginning. But very similar to BioShock 1, where we didn't have Andrew Ryan and the notion of objectivism -- we leave ourselves very open for evolution. When we build these demos, they teach us things about what we're making. We don't just work from a design document; it's just not our way.
BioShock had a strong philosophical influence. You see a lot of the same things in Infinite. What's the philosophy behind it? What would be a good reading guide for someone to get caught up?
BioShock 1 wasn't historical, but it was set in the context of history. There was a feeling in America that we were trying to represent. And very much the same here. At the turn of the century, there was this feeling of optimism. All these technologies came in place in the span of twenty years. You go from people with cows and outhouses and growing wheat in fields, to having radios and cars and movie stars, and all these incredible things. It's almost as if they felt a city was suddenly floating in the sky. That's how much the world had changed.
There's a lot of books you could read. I think Teddy Roosevelt is a great place to start. He really is the center of where America was at the time, and America's role from being a small provincial power to placing itself on the world's stage. This feeling of optimism -- we can do all these huge things -- we have the technology, we have this incredible democratic system, which really was a beacon of hope at the time. It was a world filled with monarchies and despots. And Columbia [Ed's note: fictional city of Infinite] came out of that. We really wanted to base something on that time, which people haven't really seen before, but also, in a lot of ways, feels very familiar to some things that are very much in our consciousness today.
The settings have been major characters in your games. Going into designing Infinite, was building that locale an early part of the game's inception?
We knew we wanted a city in the sky because that's what they thought would happen at that time, at the turn of the century. The same way BioShock 1 had a sense you could create these utopias, you could create these perfect worlds based on these radical systems or ideals. There was this sense that America had this mission at the time. Even aside from the American aspect, there was a sense that technology will transform everything. Because it was transforming everything! So this notion of putting this -- almost ridiculous concept, perhaps no more ridiculous than a city at the bottom of the ocean, maybe even less ridiculous -- city in the clouds struck us as a great visual metaphor for certain ideas. That was fairly early. But everything else has been evolving ever since.
How does Infinite's team and budget compare to the original BioShock? Is this a far bigger project?
It's a reasonably big team. We're still not as big as the Ubisofts of the world, not even close. We're not 350 people. We got, like, 80. We like to stay relatively small. Not compared to a bunch of indies that do amazing things with five people. We used to do that, but the scale is obviously very large. There's not a single shared asset between this and any previous BioShock game. All the code we're writing is entirely new. It's an entirely new engine.
Rapture was a bit of a fake, in a sense that you never engaged with the ocean in a real way. That was a function of the engine and the time we had to make it. I think people, with some justification, criticized us for that. And we said that if we're going to do a city in the sky, it has to be in the sky. In our engine, buildings actually float. Buildings can actually collapse. Buildings you're standing on can collapse out of the sky. Every surface is floating. The scale of the space. The fact that you can fight fifteen enemies at once, where you're used to fighting one or two guys in a corridor in BioShock 1.
We have this saying: "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." That's why some of the combat in previous BioShock games got to be a tiny bit samey is because when you're fighting just one or two guys in a tight corridor, electro-bolt with shotgun tends to work really, really well. Well, let's really open up the kinds of challenges you can face. Okay, maybe you will have some of those tight spaces. Maybe you'll have much broader spaces, where long-range weapons are a lot more important. Maybe you'll have lots of enemies at once, where area of effect weapons become really important. Maybe you'll move at 60 miles per hour along the sky lines, where weapons that can be used in that context become really important. So, we want to demand more out of the player, so they had to be much more engaged in their tool set.
The first game was built on a heavily modified version of Unreal Engine 2.5. Is this fresh tech, from the ground up?
It's built on Unreal 3 this time, but there's no shared code between any of our previous games and this. This game was about getting out of our comfort zone for us, because we had used that engine on several games before. It was used on SWAT, Tribes, BioShock 1, and we were very comfortable with it. But it was also a limitation which didn't allow us to do the things we wanted to do with this game. It was a lot of work, and that's one of the reasons here we are, two and a half years talking about it.
What were some of the hard choices you had to make with Infinite? Do you have any anecdotes about the concept or the dev process that was specifically difficult?
I think the first rule we made for ourselves when working on this game -- and this is a hard rule -- is there's no sacred cows. There's no BioShock sacred cows. Anything that doesn't fit in BioShock Infinite, doesn't belong in BioShock Infinite. So people say, "what about this? You gotta have that in a BioShock game!" But we say, how does it fit? Does it belong? Is it telling the story we want to tell? Is it the gameplay experience we want to say? There are probably some very iconic things that when you think of BioShock that you didn't necessarily see tonight.
What's an example?
You probably didn't see a large guy in a diving suit and a little girl walking around.
There was a big guy with big hands!
That wasn't ... um, what you think it was. That guy was not a Big Daddy. For a BioShock, that's the guy on the cover! That's the little girl on the cover in both games. I think that's a big thing, when you think of Rapture, that's another key thing. How do you take all these things you've created -- everything about how the game was presented was tied into that -- and I think that, for us, we didn't have a choice. We felt like we said what we wanted to say about Rapture. Not about BioShock, not about the gameplay motifs, not about the narrative motifs. But we said what we wanted to say about Rapture, and that kind of space and the kind of combat you have there, and some of the kind of experiences you have there. We created this franchise, and we love this franchise. If you know our previous games, it's very much an extension of the DNA of the stuff we've done before. I think you'll see this game has evolved as much from BioShock as BioShock had evolved from any previous games we've done.
Why call it BioShock, then? What not call it something else? Is that marketing? Is that artistic option?
I think it's both because I think BioShock is a lot more than just Rapture. This is a game; it's a first-person shooter set in an amazing place with a story wrought with – from our perspective – ideas that are tied with history. And everything else really is up for grabs. But we felt that if we made this game and it wasn't a BioShock game, that would be a bit of a cheat. To say, "Oh, it's a totally new thing." But it is a new thing, but it's also a continuation of the things we've done before.
It has a shared heritage.
Final Fantasy is a very similar thing. They have some similar elements. But it's a little strange because usually when you do sequels, the reason it's so similar is because there's a lot of the same assets, a lot of the same gameplay systems.
BioShock 2, for example, versus BioShock Infinite.
Yes, and that's one of the reasons BioShock 2 wasn't the right project for us and, as we agreed with the company, we didn't have the timeframe or the scale to make the product of the ambition we had. But we felt very much it was a BioShock game. There is connective tissue to this and previous titles we've done as well.
What's "infinite" mean?
That's something you're going to have to find out.
Are you concerned with disappointing fans that were really looking forward to a new IP from Irrational? Do you think there's going to be a backlash, like "Oh, it's a BioShock game? Why isn't it something else?"
I think if we had made a game that's very similar to what we had done before and tread very similar grounds, I think there is definitely a chance of that. We never know what people are going to think, but our viewpoint here is: It's a franchise that people like; I think people love. A lot of people love. We had more to say to it but we wanted to do it in a way that we weren't bound by any ideas that had come before.
Can you explain the codename "Icarus"?
Mostly we wanted to be able to talk about the game and say it without just saying "this thing we're working on." And have a name that we could use. And if you think about the name, we wanted people – and I think there are some people on the internet who kind of sussed out what we were doing because of the name, and that's okay. Like any good mystery, you want people afterwards to feel like they had some information to suss out what the solution to the mystery would be if they had some data to figure that out.
You guys had a fun podcast feature where people called in and guessed what you were working on. Did anyone guess "BioShock in the sky"?
I don't know. I don't think so. Maybe, but I could be wrong. I'm looking at my director of marketing here.
Some people did? Are you going to give them a special award, or a prize? A badge on the site or something.
The "icarus" name does hint towards that a little bit.
The game was running on PC today. Are you handling PC development yourself? I know that was handled by 2K Australia for BioShock.
No, we're handling everything.
How about a morality system? That's one of the major components of the first BioShock game, where you were able to choose whether you wanted to harvest Little Sisters or not. Is that same type of decision and morality system present in Infinite?
I think all BioShock games are set in a context of morality. They're not games about "the bad guys" and "the good guys." We're not going to talk specifically about if we're doing anything with that kind of system or what we're doing, I think it's safe to say we're not looking to repeat ourselves there because we think we've said what we wanted to say with that and I think that's been very well expressed in two games now. If we were to do something, it would be quite different.
The city of Columbia seems a lot less devolved than Rapture was. Is this still a city full of crazies? Full of hopped-up Splicers? The people seemed a little more ... natural.
I think that's one of the things we're trying to do. One of the cheats we've given ourselves over the history of the company is sort of being in this world that's almost dead. It's completely destroyed in many ways. And you just have the sort of crazies wandering around who you can't really interact with in any meaningful way.
I think, and I could be wrong, I think I invented the "see the guy on the other side of the glass window and interact with him" thing. And that's a dubious distinction, as an invention. And that's one of the things that we said we're not going to allow ourselves to have a game that's entirely run by that. Where you see a guy and he immediately attacks you.
You saw a sequence in the bar, where you come in and people don't immediately attack you. And that's actually meaningful to what we're trying to do with this game. I'm not going to go into a huge amount of detail here but this is not a city that's as devolved as Rapture and I think that presents real challenges for us on the development side and it also presents real new opportunities for the gamer and a very different experience than BioShock.
So last question, and it should be really obvious at this point. BioShock: under the sea. BioShock Infinite: in the air. BioShock X: in space?
We're announcing three more games tomorrow and we know all the places they're going to be.
Is that another event we have to go to?
No, look. It took us this long to sort of think and evolve this. We have no idea in terms of the future, that's not even something I'm thinking about right now.
I think a "shock" game in a ship with an AI is going to do really, really well and that's something you should think about.
That's sounds like a great idea. You should make that game.
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Sad gaming world we live in today.
