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Ronhrin
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Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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 Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 03:00 Post subject: Psychopathy and ASPD are mistakenly labeled. |
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It is my view, opinion and thesis that some of the most commonly known personality disorders such as Psychopathy and Anti Social personality disorder are mistakenly labeled by society in the sense that they aren't really disorders in the human psych but rather psychological traits of human evolution and intellectual advancement.
First oneself needs to understand what exactly is psychopathy and anti social personality disorder, both of them are slightly different in their diagnosis, but on the surface any individual with any of the following traits might fit into one of both diagnosis: lack of emphatic emotion, lack of remorse, disrespect of social norms, resourceful, charm, narcissism and in some cases aggressive violence. The greater percentage of individuals diagnosed with any of these disorders often possess a very high IQ.
If any of these traits are looked upon a strictly evolutionary standpoint, they clearly are traits you would expect to find on the individuals with best chance of survival and reproduction, which is without a doubt the most important purpose of life.
It is obvious that human society has come a long way from the days when we were nothing but hunters and gathers, but we are still the same animal, and what we know from evolution is that it is the gradual change in very small groups of a species alongside with the ability to keep the specific lineage going for many generations that is the key to long term evolutionary transformation and survival.
Nowadays people are indoctrinated with the notion that the norms of society are constant and immutable and we have to bend ourselves into them, but the truth is that the real laws we have to bend ourselves to, are the laws of nature, and it is obvious that no human construct can change those laws, the key to advancement is improvisation and adaptation, and it is very obvious from many different perspectives that human society stands on a very different set of laws that in many cases are counter productive and oblivious of the laws of nature.
It is from this perspective that I say these two specific disorders aren't really that more of a disorder as atheism is a disorder for religious people.
Society is built in the false consensus that everyone is equal and equally deserving of the same quality of life, and as beautiful as it may seem on paper or as a political agenda this is not true, everyone is not equal, far from it, there are branches of human society that would never have the chance to survive and pass on their genes into the next generation if it weren't for social programs such as helping the poor and so forth, the advancement of humanity should rely on the natural law, only the best equipped carry on their genes for the next generation, we are all still bound to the human condition and the frailty of life and as much as society keeps ignoring this fact, we do not live in a world of infinite resources.
Please comment...
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 10:36 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Empirical studies using the PCL-R (Hare, 2003) have shown no intelligence differences between psychopaths and nonpsychopaths. |
Further more isn't some of the traits of Psychopathy that you're more risk taking and fearless? That seems pretty stupid evolutionary.
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 10:43 Post subject: |
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"Aggressive violence" doesn't exactly make you fitter in the gene pool, it just makes you more likely to get killed by someone you attack. So I wouldn't list that as an advantage in evolution.
And if you think about evolution from a higher perspective, it's entire "purpose" is really to advance the entire human race, not a single individual. And such individuals with the traits you have listed most definitely are not very fit for social interaction, which would make them unable to work efficiently with one another for purposes of scientific research or such, therefore seriously hindering overall fitness of the human race.
Especially now, when technological advances have surpassed evolution and we are at a point where we can make improvements to ourselves and the human race, much faster with technology, instead of waiting for evolution to take it's course.
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 12:07 Post subject: |
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^+1.
it's a nice bunch of ideas ronhrin, but this one
| Quote: | lack of emphatic emotion, lack of remorse, disrespect of social norms, resourceful, charm, narcissism and in some cases aggressive violence. The greater percentage of individuals diagnosed with any of these disorders often possess a very high IQ.
If any of these traits are looked upon a strictly evolutionary standpoint, they clearly are traits you would expect to find on the individuals with best chance of survival and reproduction, which is without a doubt the most important purpose of life. |
...is a bit bullshitty. depending on how you "mix" those traits and other factors, you either get a) a stereotypical alpha male (who usually produces the most offspring) or b) a nutter whose first and last try at reproduction was raping his grandma, c) anything in between.
and this one
| Quote: | | there are branches of human society that would never have the chance to survive and pass on their genes into the next generation if it weren't for social programs such as helping the poor and so forth, the advancement of humanity should rely on the natural law, only the best equipped carry on their genes for the next generation |
reminds me a bit of some guy who had an emo haircut and one ball missing and we all know how that ended 
sure, our gene pool isn't exactly ideal - but who really has the right to tell someone whether to live and reproduce or not?
bottom line: humans have come this far because in contrast to other animals, they collaborated, socialized and fucked around a lot. the key to our social/technical/etc advancement lies in refining those things, not becoming loners.
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 12:09 Post subject: |
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I believe someone is watching too much House.
| sabin1981 wrote: | | Fuck you troll. Fuck you and your entire aids-infested family. Get cancer and die. Slowly. |
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 16:41 Post subject: |
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A lot of those attributes would get you excised from society and you would be less likely to pass on your genes. Doesn't this debate fall under evolutionary psychology anyway?
If you see being a sociopath as a benefit and want to live in a world governed by the highest IQ or strongest body, go join the military, or live in a conflicted nation and tell me that the natural world is a meritocracy. It isn't. You'll die a pointless death from guy you never saw, cause he wanted that resource you had.
Truly, is society not the mark of a civilized man?
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Ronhrin
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Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 19:01 Post subject: |
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| FriendlyBus wrote: | A lot of those attributes would get you excised from society and you would be less likely to pass on your genes. Doesn't this debate fall under evolutionary psychology anyway?
If you see being a sociopath as a benefit and want to live in a world governed by the highest IQ or strongest body, go join the military, or live in a conflicted nation and tell me that the natural world is a meritocracy. It isn't. You'll die a pointless death from guy you never saw, cause he wanted that resource you had.
Truly, is society not the mark of a civilized man? |
Society is the dystopian realization of an utopian principle, it is the constructed projection of the failure humanity undergoes when trying to exercise ideas into reality.
When reading everything that was commented about my post, what I see is that all of you are arguing that those personality disorders are indeed a disorder in the face of society, but none of you actually answered my main question, do you really consider them to be a physical (mental) deficiency or merely a intellectual standpoint such as high IQ.
There are types of disorders that clearly are traits of tangible mental deficiency, such as autism or dawn syndrome, but when it comes to social disorders the line isn't as tangible as before, mainly because society is a human construct and a persons psych is a physiological trait that is outside of the realm of society's ability to control and shape on it's predetermined set of laws.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 19:16 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | FriendlyBus wrote: | A lot of those attributes would get you excised from society and you would be less likely to pass on your genes. Doesn't this debate fall under evolutionary psychology anyway?
If you see being a sociopath as a benefit and want to live in a world governed by the highest IQ or strongest body, go join the military, or live in a conflicted nation and tell me that the natural world is a meritocracy. It isn't. You'll die a pointless death from guy you never saw, cause he wanted that resource you had.
Truly, is society not the mark of a civilized man? |
Society is the dystopian realization of an utopian principle, it is the constructed projection of the failure humanity undergoes when trying to exercise ideas into reality.
When reading everything that was commented about my post, what I see is that all of you are arguing that those personality disorders are indeed a disorder in the face of society, but none of you actually answered my main question, do you really consider them to be a physical (mental) deficiency or merely a intellectual standpoint such as high IQ.
There are types of disorders that clearly are traits of tangible mental deficiency, such as autism or dawn syndrome, but when it comes to social disorders the line isn't as tangible as before, mainly because society is a human construct and a persons psych is a physiological trait that is outside of the realm of society's ability to control and shape on it's predetermined set of laws. |
How do you know that being a sociopath or psychopath can't be traced in some small gene defects? Maybe they are but we haven't really find out the real source :\
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 19:34 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | Ronhrin wrote: | | FriendlyBus wrote: | A lot of those attributes would get you excised from society and you would be less likely to pass on your genes. Doesn't this debate fall under evolutionary psychology anyway?
If you see being a sociopath as a benefit and want to live in a world governed by the highest IQ or strongest body, go join the military, or live in a conflicted nation and tell me that the natural world is a meritocracy. It isn't. You'll die a pointless death from guy you never saw, cause he wanted that resource you had.
Truly, is society not the mark of a civilized man? |
Society is the dystopian realization of an utopian principle, it is the constructed projection of the failure humanity undergoes when trying to exercise ideas into reality.
When reading everything that was commented about my post, what I see is that all of you are arguing that those personality disorders are indeed a disorder in the face of society, but none of you actually answered my main question, do you really consider them to be a physical (mental) deficiency or merely a intellectual standpoint such as high IQ.
There are types of disorders that clearly are traits of tangible mental deficiency, such as autism or dawn syndrome, but when it comes to social disorders the line isn't as tangible as before, mainly because society is a human construct and a persons psych is a physiological trait that is outside of the realm of society's ability to control and shape on it's predetermined set of laws. |
How do you know that being a sociopath or psychopath can't be traced in some small gene defects? Maybe they are but we haven't really find out the real source :\ |
That could be true to some extent, and if they really are to be discovered as a physical genetic deficiency in the purest sense, the fault would most likely be found at the genetic level, on the other hand, everyone's genetic code is faulty in some way or another (this is the key to transformation and human evolution), so the room for speculation is immense, by analyzing the empirical data that we now have, we know that there are as many types of psychopaths as there are of personality types. If there is one thing common in most cases of psychopathy is that most of the individuals show a suppression or are completely oblivious to human emotion, this issue is what helps in the diagnosis of most cases of this specific disorder, however, from a rational stand point this can be seem as a evolutionary process of human evolution, the gradual decay of emotional bonds into a strict unemotional rational psych.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 19:47 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | FriendlyBus wrote: | A lot of those attributes would get you excised from society and you would be less likely to pass on your genes. Doesn't this debate fall under evolutionary psychology anyway?
If you see being a sociopath as a benefit and want to live in a world governed by the highest IQ or strongest body, go join the military, or live in a conflicted nation and tell me that the natural world is a meritocracy. It isn't. You'll die a pointless death from guy you never saw, cause he wanted that resource you had.
Truly, is society not the mark of a civilized man? |
Society is the dystopian realization of an utopian principle, it is the constructed projection of the failure humanity undergoes when trying to exercise ideas into reality.
When reading everything that was commented about my post, what I see is that all of you are arguing that those personality disorders are indeed a disorder in the face of society, but none of you actually answered my main question, do you really consider them to be a physical (mental) deficiency or merely a intellectual standpoint such as high IQ.
There are types of disorders that clearly are traits of tangible mental deficiency, such as autism or dawn syndrome, but when it comes to social disorders the line isn't as tangible as before, mainly because society is a human construct and a persons psych is a physiological trait that is outside of the realm of society's ability to control and shape on it's predetermined set of laws. |
They are a mental deficiency because they are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain, not because they're "just too different from the rest of us". Laws of society, and them disobeying them has nothing to do with them being classified as sick. There are plenty of very very weird people out there, that conform to no social norms, yet they are not classified with a disease.
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 22:53 Post subject: |
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my short answer: you are trying to rationalize your antisocial behaviour here and by putting yourself into proximity of the highly intelligent, you try to gain some self-worth from it. Arent you, your sneaky little ronhrin? 
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Ronhrin
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Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:07 Post subject: |
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| Lutzifer wrote: | | my short answer: you are trying to rationalize your antisocial behaviour here and by putting yourself into proximity of the highly intelligent, you try to gain some self-worth from it. Arent you, your sneaky little ronhrin? |
Way to get out of subject, your argument reminds me of evangelical christians where after questioned upon the evidence and logical reasoning behind the existence of god, they would answer something along the lines of "you are angry with god and you want to make your blasphemous views heard only to provoke a reaction and seek atention" 
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:12 Post subject: |
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well, it wasnt meant as a "real" reply. Dont have time to give you a proper reply today, maybe tomorrow. But you re also not answering my question there either btw.
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:27 Post subject: |
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| Lutzifer wrote: | | well, it wasnt meant as a "real" reply. Dont have time to give you a proper reply today, maybe tomorrow. But you re also not answering my question there either btw. |
I have no need to hide behind anything nor approval of any kind, my intelligence is recognized by everyone that I deem important to me, about the purpose of this thread, it is true that I am not conformed with social norms, but I have no need to argue either, I make enough money on my own, and I live a quiet life with my wife and daughters, what made me think about this was in fact a person that I once have known while on school that I sort bumped into a few days ago, we had quiet a stimulating conversations back in the day, and he was by far one of the most intelligent persons I have known, he was diagnosed with anti social personality disorder a few years ago and I haven't heard from him since until I found him working on a supermarket a few days ago, which made me think about the fact that someone with such intellectual potential like himself ended up in such a position merely because he was labeled as something which in my opinion is entirely open for interpretation and debate.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:39 Post subject: |
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thanx for the reply. And there are some interesting debates to be had on the questions you put up here. Alas, i dont have the time today.
Edit: before i forget it, i ll at least sneak this one in: there was an APA article a few years back about how top management in big corporations have created behavioral norms and work ethics in their work places that would make them sociopaths if judged by normal social norms / ethics. Alas, i cant find the paper, nor a link online at the moment either...
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:46 Post subject: |
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Big words. Strange ideas. Lacking wisdom. :yawn:
And not unusual from OP
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:27 Post subject: |
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| Newty182 wrote: | Big words. Strange ideas. Lacking wisdom. :yawn:
And not unusual from OP |
One of the things that made me so inquisitive and critical of everything around me was the fact that unlike the greater percentage of people, I never accepted any knowledge that was passed on to me for granted, I always felt the need to question every single shred of information I was being taught and comprehend it myself from the ground up.
My ideas seem only strange for those who that blindly accept everything they were indoctrinated with.
If society classified extremely shallow people as carriers of some psychological disorder, would it really mean that they were suffering from a deficiency or merely labeled by an elitist society, that is the kind of debate I'm trying to have here, are those personality disorders really a deficiency or are they merely a incorrect label of personality types that society deems inappropriate and against current norms.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:39 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | One of the things that made me so inquisitive and critical of everything around me was the fact that unlike the greater percentage of people, I never accepted any knowledge that was passed on to me for granted, I always felt the need to question every single shred of information I was being taught and comprehend it myself from the ground up. |
Don't think of yourself special, any intelligent person questions what they're taught and tries to find their own way. Just blindly listening to anything someone teaches you wouldn't really serve much purpose, as you would not understand the theory behind it, therefore making it really difficult to study it further. People are more alike than you think, although it might not seem like so on the outside. But this is off topic.
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:46 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: |
My ideas seem only strange for those who that blindly accept everything they were indoctrinated with.
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lol so all people in this thread who think its some babble are just societies sheep?
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 01:04 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | are those personality disorders really a deficiency or are they merely a incorrect label of personality types that society deems inappropriate and against current norms. |
didn't you just answer that yourself? it's called a disorder cause it deviates from the (social) norm. the question that remains is whether one sticks a positive or a negative label to it - and that is one thing everyone has to know for himself.
| Quote: | | he was by far one of the most intelligent persons I have known, he was diagnosed with anti social personality disorder a few years ago and I haven't heard from him since until I found him working on a supermarket a few days ago, which made me think about the fact that someone with such intellectual potential like himself ended up in such a position merely because he was labeled as something which in my opinion is entirely open for interpretation and debate. |
so you really think he ended up in a supermarket instead of some position "worthy" of his intelligence because he was labeled with an anti social personality disorder? intelligence itself gets you nowhere - you also have to put it to use and motivation doesn't hurt either. maybe he's simply happy with that position cause he's got no further goals in life (career-wise)?
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 01:09 Post subject: |
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| bushwacka wrote: | | Ronhrin wrote: | | are those personality disorders really a deficiency or are they merely a incorrect label of personality types that society deems inappropriate and against current norms. |
didn't you just answer that yourself? it's called a disorder cause it deviates from the (social) norm. the question that remains is whether one sticks a positive or a negative label to it - and that is one thing everyone has to know for himself.
| Quote: | | he was by far one of the most intelligent persons I have known, he was diagnosed with anti social personality disorder a few years ago and I haven't heard from him since until I found him working on a supermarket a few days ago, which made me think about the fact that someone with such intellectual potential like himself ended up in such a position merely because he was labeled as something which in my opinion is entirely open for interpretation and debate. |
so you really think he ended up in a supermarket instead of some position "worthy" of his intelligence because he was labeled with an anti social personality disorder? intelligence itself gets you nowhere - you also have to put it to use and motivation doesn't hurt either. maybe he's simply happy with that position cause he's got no further goals in life (career-wise)? |
He did have other goals, and in conversation with me the other day, it still has them, he just, as you said, isn't motivated to go through the whole process that society requires him to go to meet his goals.
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 01:53 Post subject: |
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| bushwacka wrote: | but then, in this case, it's not about his disorder anymore, but rather about
a) him being a lazy cunt
b) him not wanting to adapt. and i don't mean "adapt" as in him dropping his principles and changing himself, but simply getting along with co-workers. you can't blame HR people for not hiring antisocial guys because this behaviour neither serves the company nor his achievements and career progress.
may i ask what exactly his goals are? because if they don't exactly involve him dealing with other people all the time, i don't really see where his mind would inhibit him from achieving them. and if all else fails, there's always the one man startup business - where your success solely depends on your mental capacity  |
His goals, as they were back in the day were focused on biological research or maybe medicine.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 02:32 Post subject: |
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just from my personal experience while studying molecular biology: in this field, there are more than enough guys who are as antisocial as it gets and they aren't doing that bad. so i'd say there's something else that's preventing him from succeeding.
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 02:52 Post subject: |
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| bushwacka wrote: | | just from my personal experience while studying molecular biology: in this field, there are more than enough guys who are as antisocial as it gets and they aren't doing that bad. so i'd say there's something else that's preventing him from succeeding. |
You could be correct about this particular case, but let us consider the whole for example, the people you jest referenced, I could bet you that most of them would be diagnosed with ASPD by our social standards, and yet, they probably don't suffer from any kind of mental deficiency of any kind, this is the main issue I'm addressing here.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 03:01 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | my intelligence is recognized by everyone that I deem important to me |
And yet, you gave Transformers a 9/10. <3 |
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 03:10 Post subject: |
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| iNatan wrote: | | Ronhrin wrote: | | my intelligence is recognized by everyone that I deem important to me |
And yet, you gave Transformers a 9/10. |
Where is the memory eraser from M.I.B when you need it?
I already made it clear several times before how I was overwhelmed at the time and how mistakenly I rated it, nowadays I would give it no more than 3/10 for the CGI alone.
I know this won't serve as future reference as you will always torment me with it, but still, here is presently noticed that I redeemed myself!
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 04:20 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | bushwacka wrote: | | just from my personal experience while studying molecular biology: in this field, there are more than enough guys who are as antisocial as it gets and they aren't doing that bad. so i'd say there's something else that's preventing him from succeeding. |
You could be correct about this particular case, but let us consider the whole for example, the people you jest referenced, I could bet you that most of them would be diagnosed with ASPD by our social standards, and yet, they probably don't suffer from any kind of mental deficiency of any kind, this is the main issue I'm addressing here. |
...which raises the question about what's really a deficiency and what's not. things like trisomy 21 result in a mental deficiency, can't argue about that. but like stated above, it depends on how you look at things. ASPD also frees your mind (and agenda) from social stuff, enabling you to focus solely on research for example - it's the mental equivalent to stephen hawking's physical inability. but then again, mingling with fellow scientists also opens up your mind to many new things (amongst other stuff), thus refining and enhancing your work.
it's a purely subjective thing whether you call something a deficiency or not, as it can also have its advantages (but at quite a substantial cost, according to our society).
bottom line: i wouldn't describe ASPD as a deficiency, especially as long as someone affected by it is neither unhappy because of it (or its consequences) nor does it result in severe misanthropic actions. but i wouldn't call it the key to our next evolutionary stage and/or higher success at reproduction either. not by a long shot.
oh and another thing: no one can sum up a personality by doing a diagnosis and slapping a label on it, the human mind is far too complex for that. what would be more fitting would be some kind of psychological system that classifies all facettes (and also illnesses/deficiencies) of the human mind kinda like on a scale from 1 to 10 (on its most basic level), since most (if not all) of them work in a synergistic way, be it good or bad - which again, is of course is a subjective matter (to an extent).
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