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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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 Posted: Fri, 7th Aug 2009 23:30 Post subject: Inevitability of death |
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With each passing generation our own sense of individualism goes stronger, and now at a faster rate than ever before, with it our relation with death is evermore scarier and to some people, inconceivable.
With the assumption that mankind will not cease to develop technologically for at least another 5000 thousand years, it is inevitable that a cure/solution for death by aging and cellular degradation will be found, render a human indestructable is one thing, but render one human ageless is a fairly achievable condition.
What's your thoughts about this subject and about the possibility of such discover be made within our lifetime, personally the only way I can cope with my own mortality is by acknowledging that there is a possibility, as small as it may be, that the cure for death by cellular degradation may be achievable within my lifetime.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Aug 2009 23:41 Post subject: |
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There is this Croatian biologist who discovered the process which allowed some bacteria to self heal, and last year he announced that he could have found something that could extend human life.
So my answer would be: I think that we'll discover that in near future.
But there's always ethical question: what if someone who discover it takes it for himself, or sells to the richest people?
It's the consequences we need to fear, not death...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Aug 2009 23:50 Post subject: |
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I don't even know where to start with this topic. I feel sorry for people who look at science and even though how imature it is, they believe everything has been answered already.
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 00:07 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | It's the consequences we need to fear, not death... |
It is my opinion that there is hardly any consequence worst than death.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 00:07 Post subject: |
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Few days ago I caught myself thinking: If we take into account the Everett and DeWitts many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, do we ever die? From a pure philosophical point of view (a bit of science added). I wanted to make a thread about that, but you wrote this so...
See the MWI says that by collapsing the wave function we split the universe into countless of possibilities. And I came to the idea due to my seminar in general physics: quantum suicide.
Imagine that you have horrible accident, say a car crash, and you die, but you die in this universe, and you conscience somehow transcends into a new universe. You are not aware that you have died, because in other universe you survived the crash, and you recover (or not).
Now I came to some difficulties: what with 'natural death' (by old age)? Well maybe you go into the universe where time has opposite direction. And a universe where you don't necessary have these physical entities and rules as we have here (3D consciousness and so...).
What if you commit suicide? Like you hang yourself, but in another universe the rope breaks...
That way we would be 'immortal', going through infinity...
The only thing I am not really sure how to 'think through' is the entropy. By our current knowledge of universe it will die (reach the max of entropy). In, like 10^10^70 yrs or so, our universe will reach so called 'heath death'.
But then, if we have infinitely many universes, I guess that we wouldn't need to worry about that...
It just came to my mind for some reason  
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 00:18 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | Imagine that you have horrible accident, say a car crash, and you die, but you die in this universe, and you conscience somehow transcends into a new universe. You are not aware that you have died, because in other universe you survived the crash, and you recover (or not). |
I can remember thinking about that when i was a small kid. I remember thinking about stupid stuff that i did which i thought i could easily have died from and then thinking maybe ... erm .. i did. Really hard to put into words but, yeah, that was before i knew anything about even basic physics.
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 00:21 Post subject: |
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| Newty182 wrote: | | dingo_d wrote: | | Imagine that you have horrible accident, say a car crash, and you die, but you die in this universe, and you conscience somehow transcends into a new universe. You are not aware that you have died, because in other universe you survived the crash, and you recover (or not). |
I can remember thinking about that when i was a small kid. I remember thinking about stupid stuff that i did which i thought i could easily have died from and then thinking maybe ... erm .. i did. Really hard to put into words but, yeah, that was before i knew anything about even basic physics. |
Wow... esp 
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 00:22 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: |
Now I came to some difficulties: what with 'natural death' (by old age)? Well maybe you go into the universe where time has opposite direction. And a universe where you don't necessary have these physical entities and rules as we have here (3D consciousness and so...).
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I am very aware of MWI, but imo it's pure speculation, nothing more, anyway your point was making some sense until you reached the quoted part, that's just far fetched to assume that the universe would bend around the continued existence of your conscienceness, that's just trying to make your theory fit any way you can, if you continue down that path, it will not take long before you find yourself with a bible in your hand preaching some ridiculous and obsolete ideas.
There is only one way to become immortal, is to allow the carrier of your conscioussness, whatever if may be, to exist indefinitely, the fastest road to this goal is obviously to cure cellular degradation
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 00:39 Post subject: |
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Maybe i'm wrong but wouldn't we have countless possibilities until the wave function collapses?
Futher more if those other universes are so different (like time going the other way) would it then be so farfetched to imagine one where quantum mechanics weren't statistical, making all the other universes imposible?
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 00:41 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | Newty182 wrote: | | dingo_d wrote: | | Imagine that you have horrible accident, say a car crash, and you die, but you die in this universe, and you conscience somehow transcends into a new universe. You are not aware that you have died, because in other universe you survived the crash, and you recover (or not). |
I can remember thinking about that when i was a small kid. I remember thinking about stupid stuff that i did which i thought i could easily have died from and then thinking maybe ... erm .. i did. Really hard to put into words but, yeah, that was before i knew anything about even basic physics. |
Wow... esp |
lol. No, just like thinking.
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 00:47 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | dingo_d wrote: |
Now I came to some difficulties: what with 'natural death' (by old age)? Well maybe you go into the universe where time has opposite direction. And a universe where you don't necessary have these physical entities and rules as we have here (3D consciousness and so...).
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I am very aware of MWI, but imo it's pure speculation, nothing more, anyway your point was making some sense until you reached the quoted part, that's just far fetched to assume that the universe would bend around the continued existence of your conscienceness, that's just trying to make your theory fit any way you can, if you continue down that path, it will not take long before you find yourself with a bible in your hand preaching some ridiculous and obsolete ideas.
There is only one way to become immortal, is to allow the carrier of your conscioussness, whatever if may be, to exist indefinitely, the fastest road to this goal is obviously to cure cellular degradation |
No, no, this is not theory! Just plain philosophy! And quantum mechanics is pretty much theory made to suit the needs of experiments 
@ Atropa: yes, there are countless possibilities, and by the collapse of the wave function there is no telling to which one we will be taken...
You need to understand that my knowledge of MWI is limited (we are learning Copenhagen interpretation of QM...), from what I've seen so far it's not all just pure ramblings, there is underlying physics there, but the interpretation suited my philosophical thinking...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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vaifan1986
Posts: 4638
Location: Birthplace of the necktie.
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 00:51 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | dingo_d wrote: | | It's the consequences we need to fear, not death... |
It is my opinion that there is hardly any consequence worst than death. |
Being alive trapped in your body, without the ability to move any muscle, in short being a vegetable.
Micek:
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 01:02 Post subject: |
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Well but when the function has collapsed there is no more uncertainty. So until it collapses things are way more exciting than after( you know the cat in the box and all that). Futher more some of these other universes would have to be so unprobable that it really doesn't make sense.
Btw I guess all theories are made to suit the needs of experiments. No reason to make up something which isn't based on any data :/
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 01:03 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Lol, always funnie to see humans talk about things like this.. |
what are you fucking alien? |
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 01:17 Post subject: |
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When you think about it, would extending human lifespans really be such a good idea, at our current position? We're already using more resources than we can make, and that would problem would only increase with a higher population.
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nouseforaname
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Posts: 21306
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 04:08 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: |
Now I came to some difficulties: what with 'natural death' (by old age)? Well maybe you go into the universe where time has opposite direction. And a universe where you don't necessary have these physical entities and rules as we have here (3D consciousness and so...).
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If the laws of the universe change, then you would be aware of the transition...
Also let us consider being injured to the point of immobility, or constant pain, how does your theory reconcile these possibilities?
I am not disregarding your theory, merely asking the difficult questions.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 04:27 Post subject: |
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even if a key immortality was found (some cell regenerator?) only some of the elite and richest fucks on the planet would be able to get it and those you can count on one hand, that is if the world continues on this way. other than that it might be something like the Nobel prize.
I'm not old but I'm pretty fine with death, because no matter how worried you get you just can't do shit about it, and I'm pretty sure immortality would lead to boredom of life in most, not for me or scientists tho as it would give much more time to analyze and create without worrying about the time factor, but isn't that what new generations are for? they take on what the old generations have left and continue on their way? isn't reproduction somewhat of an immortality? immortality of not the individual but of humans and living creatures.
there's no soul or after life of course, we are our brain, if we were souls that see, feel and hear then why would we need these bodies for? so that pretty much kills the "spiritual" factor.
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 04:51 Post subject: |
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Funny as i always had this memory.. me in my "soul state", eagerly waiting for my incarnation..
Now that i'm actually living, i'm struggling to remember why the hell was i so looking forward to ..
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 10:39 Post subject: |
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Death is inevitable, tech's not going to change that. Next question!
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 11:33 Post subject: |
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| Submiqent wrote: | | Death is inevitable, tech's not going to change that. Next question! |
No, it's not It really is due to to cellular degeneration...
But what if you live forever, but have shitty life? That would kinda suck...
I'm actually looking forward to death. At current knowledge we will die some day, and I'd like to see what happens next (or nothing, whatever)...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 11:45 Post subject: |
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well if you live forever and have a shitty life that means you have all the time in the world to make it better and maybe even become the ultimate ruler of the planet if not the whole galaxy
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 11:53 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | I'm actually looking forward to death. At current knowledge we will die some day, and I'd like to see what happens next (or nothing, whatever)... |
It will be exactly like it was before you were born. Nothing.
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 12:45 Post subject: |
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Biological Immortality is within the most plausible recent future technological achievements, but as I mentioned above, render one person immortal doesn't make us any less fragile than we are today, when biological immortality is achieved, death will still exist, our bodies will still break in a traffic accident, when burnt or fired upon, we can even still be very weak when facing new, stronger virus and parasites, the only difference is that we will never degenerate to old age and consequently die from it.
As far as society goes, it will not change as radically as one may think, it is obvious that it would exist some kind of birth control afterward, we have children to make our species endure, but logically, if we can exist indefinitely ourselves, there will be no need to reproduce, one person can achieve a far greater level of enlightenment if he has the ability to live for 200, 300 or more years, the cycle of constantly teaching our youngsters is in most cases futile, since only a very small percentage of them has both the will and the intelligence to comprehend the perspective of someone else.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Aug 2009 12:48 Post subject: |
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I would distribute that age stopper drug to only blond, good looking people, and then I would teach them quenya, and go to live in the woods 
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Wed, 12th Aug 2009 00:12 Post subject: |
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eternal life or extending life by invention will never happen for the masses for the simple fact there would be no room left on this planet for everyone to live
So make the most of your probable 70 - 80 years of life.
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| Posted: Wed, 12th Aug 2009 00:26 Post subject: |
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Plus, if you're biologically immortal, wouldn't you fear death through physical trauma even more? I could see people not leaving their houses for fear of the potential dangers they could encounter.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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