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| Are you sick of society? |
| Yes |
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[ 24 ] |
| No |
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6% |
[ 3 ] |
| Don't give a shit ;) |
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38% |
[ 17 ] |
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| Total Votes : 44 |
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 Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 15:30 Post subject: |
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Dude, we are what makes up the ... society. Humanity is far from perfect.
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 15:32 Post subject: |
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| VGAdeadcafe wrote: | | Dude, we are what makes up the ... society. Humanity is far from perfect. |
Oh yeah, but look how many people are dysfunctional by society's standards. It's not the people, it's the system in my opinion.
Although there are some people beyond compromise, such as rapists, paedophiles and such.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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_SiN_
Megatron
Posts: 12108
Location: Cybertron
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 16:07 Post subject: |
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Exactly, yes exactly, what i've been thinking for some time now. So that's a yes from me.
Watercooled 5950X | AORUS Master X570 | Asus RTX 3090 TUF Gaming OC | 64Gb RAM | 1Tb 970 Evo Plus + 2Tb 660p | etc etc
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 16:34 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | | VGAdeadcafe wrote: | | Dude, we are what makes up the ... society. Humanity is far from perfect. |
Oh yeah, but look how many people are dysfunctional by society's standards. It's not the people, it's the system in my opinion.
Although there are some people beyond compromise, such as rapists, paedophiles and such. |
No person is born stupid, we all have the same potential. Yes there are genotypes and phenotypes, but all in all we are the same.
It is society that model us to it's needs, but also it is society that can ruin you. I don't think that pedos or rapist are really that diferrent, but there was something that made those people do something that isn't acceptable by norms we define as society (to be clear I sure as hell don't approve it).
Yes, at this point, we really do things that is wrong by some individuals (you could say morally superior). But society is a collective, and even though not all agree with the current state of mind, it is what most people are currently thinking (or what majority in power thinks).
So until you have big amount of people with same opinion brought together, and make some mind opening changes in the world thinking, all will remain as it is.
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 17:22 Post subject: |
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I have so much to say on the subject that I choose to abstain.
However, I do resent the idea that society is a product of "the people" (as a generalization of all men and women that the society contain), this is a fallacy in my view.
Society is a product of the societal hierarchies that are established by economy and norms. These hierarchies are obviously not affected (at all) by those in lower standing in such a society, regardless of democratic movement - and while lower standing citizens (economically or otherwise) have basic rights, that's exactly what they are. Basic.
I also think fisk should be unbanned.
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 17:42 Post subject: Re: Fuck society! |
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| AnimalMother wrote: | I hate how it tries to force you into a role, no matter how little that role suits you.
Education is a perfect example, there are no stupid people, only people who the current education system does not suit. So they are told by the system they are 'stupid' and they end up believing it. 
I'm sick of this aspect of society.  |
I absolutely despise many more aspects of society than the ones you mentioned, but firstly let me disagree with something, when you say that there are no stupid people, I believe that you are referring to the potential learning and understanding ability that each one of us has, but imo, what makes a people stupid isn't his potential capacity of understanding, but rather his willingness and endurance during the learning process, it is the superior psychological and emotional willingness to learn and comprehend that makes some people intellectually superior when compared to others, and although everyone has the intellectual potential to become the next Einstein, only a very small percentage of us will have the same psychological strength and the mindset to focus on a specific goal.
As for society, it is a system designed to make people instruments of it's structure and also to convince people with the perspective that if you obey, respect, and make respect it's rules, you will be highly rewarded and anyone who questions the purpose and logic of some of it's most fundamental rules is deemed to become what society regards as a failure.
Since statistically speaking, the great percentage of people will not question their society, and considering that people have always the tendency to apart themselves from everything and everyone that is different, hence, racism, nationalism, religion, or even sports, people with different mindsets will always be regarded as dysfunctional.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
Last edited by Ronhrin on Thu, 9th Jul 2009 17:46; edited 2 times in total |
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 17:42 Post subject: Re: Fuck society! |
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 18:24 Post subject: Re: Fuck society! |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | AnimalMother wrote: | I hate how it tries to force you into a role, no matter how little that role suits you.
Education is a perfect example, there are no stupid people, only people who the current education system does not suit. So they are told by the system they are 'stupid' and they end up believing it.
I'm sick of this aspect of society. |
I absolutely despise many more aspects of society than the ones you mentioned, but firstly let me disagree with something, when you say that there are no stupid people, I believe that you are referring to the potential learning and understanding ability that each one of us has, but imo, what makes a people stupid isn't his potential capacity of understanding, but rather his willingness and endurance during the learning process, it is the superior psychological and emotional willingness to learn and comprehend that makes some people intellectually superior when compared to others, and although everyone has the intellectual potential to become the next Einstein, only a very small percentage of us will have the same psychological strength and the mindset to focus on a specific goal.
As for society, it is a system designed to make people instruments of it's structure and also to convince people with the perspective that if you obey, respect, and make respect it's rules, you will be highly rewarded and anyone who questions the purpose and logic of some of it's most fundamental rules is deemed to become what society regards as a failure.
Since statistically speaking, the great percentage of people will not question their society, and considering that people have always the tendency to apart themselves from everything and everyone that is different, hence, racism, nationalism, religion, or even sports, people with different mindsets will always be regarded as dysfunctional. |
Exactly, I also abstained from speaking most of my thoughts on the issue because they are too great to mention here. But I gave an easily understandable example to encourage others to speak their views. So yes, I oversimplified it, but purposefully.
I would really like you and Dominae to speak your minds on this issue since I respect your opinions as much as I can through a medium such as the internet, along with dingo_d too. 
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 18:28 Post subject: Re: Fuck society! |
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Awesome! You know the problem with that tattoo is that many people will find it difficult to interpret the true meaning behind it. But it really means something to you, so I suppose in a way that doesn't matter.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 18:42 Post subject: |
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| dominae wrote: | I have so much to say on the subject that I choose to abstain.
However, I do resent the idea that society is a product of "the people" (as a generalization of all men and women that the society contain), this is a fallacy in my view.
Society is a product of the societal hierarchies that are established by economy and norms. These hierarchies are obviously not affected (at all) by those in lower standing in such a society, regardless of democratic movement - and while lower standing citizens (economically or otherwise) have basic rights, that's exactly what they are. Basic. |
You've put it really great! But I don't think that lower standing citizens have really no vote in how society work. True, they don't hold the power to persuade others to follow the idea that will benefit them the most, but as a part of society they do play a role in it, no matter how small it might be. In the end if there weren't any lower standing class (working class etc.) the ones in power wouldn't have the people to enforce their will to.
It's just how I see it...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 18:53 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | dominae wrote: | I have so much to say on the subject that I choose to abstain.
However, I do resent the idea that society is a product of "the people" (as a generalization of all men and women that the society contain), this is a fallacy in my view.
Society is a product of the societal hierarchies that are established by economy and norms. These hierarchies are obviously not affected (at all) by those in lower standing in such a society, regardless of democratic movement - and while lower standing citizens (economically or otherwise) have basic rights, that's exactly what they are. Basic. |
You've put it really great! But I don't think that lower standing citizens have really no vote in how society work. True, they don't hold the power to persuade others to follow the idea that will benefit them the most, but as a part of society they do play a role in it, no matter how small it might be. In the end if there weren't any lower standing class (working class etc.) the ones in power wouldn't have the people to enforce their will to.
It's just how I see it... |
They're exactly the kinds of people who respond with 'I don't give a shit!' to my poll. These people don't really engage with society much and so they exert little control because they choose not to.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 19:00 Post subject: |
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I don't like to think for myself. I love society. NOT!!!!! Dumb fuckers try to push their morality on me. Who are they to tell me what is right?
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 19:02 Post subject: |
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And I think that because of that we are in such place.
There are two sides to the coin: People are either fed up with all the bs others serve them, or are just too bummed down to do anything because they think that they can't change a damn thing, and on the other hand the people with power want them to be bummed down, because it suits them.
It's kind of a vicious circle...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 19:02 Post subject: |
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| edweird13 wrote: | | I don't like to think for myself. I love society. NOT!!!!! Dumb fuckers try to push their morality on me. Who are they to tell me what is right? |
Yay!
Although they're not dumb, just afraid of change, afraid of pursuing what they actually want. People who hide behind rules are just just scared of failure.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 19:08 Post subject: |
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whining and rebelling against the current won't change a damn thing, it'll just make your life miserable, don't act different infront of those "regular" fellows, you'll just make them think you're a creep and hurt your rep, you might say you don't care what they think but you will need your reputation if you think of trying to influence others, so they might take you a bit more seriously instead of laughing at your face. but you'll know someone is like you when you meet him/her, then you can act like yourself.
that's what I do
the current is too strong for few individuals to change everything about it.
my solution? nuclear warfare. sooner or later they'll end up vaporizing themselves, and if it's withing your lifetime and you're not fucked with radiation you'll have a chance to rebuild. the secret to keeping a good society is by controlling reproduction, it only takes few retards in a place of power to ruin everything.
bah i'm drunk
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 19:49 Post subject: |
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| AnimalMother wrote: |
They're exactly the kinds of people who respond with 'I don't give a shit!' to my poll. These people don't really engage with society much and so they exert little control because they choose not to. |
A lot of people who have both intellect and economic means fall into this category of yoursthough (lack of interest in the cultivation of "society"). It's almost a socialist argument to say (as I interpret your point) that putting energy (through voting, participating or improving) "the society" (which is still vague as a common denominator, but it'll have to do) somehow is the norm everyone should follow. Solidarity is an ideal, though most western societies uphold a pretty low standard of it. And usually (by post-colonial standard) limit the solidarity to a certain group of members of society.
And also as it is, being in a society, having an opinion and a will to affect it does in no way equate to having any such power. What does it matter if one, or a collective of homeless for instance want to change the terms of being able to spend time in the public sphere in NYC (for example). An area which most of them will be removed from through violence, or not.
The notion of solidarity as such is usually focused at the middle-class of most western nations. Which by average equals around 45% of the total population. Lower-class per default generally see politics as a means for the upper tiers of society to execute a level of control of the lower classes, and generally vote (if they vote at all) left to imagine that the levels of control would decrease under such a rule (which usually is wrong). Though in any functioning democracy it is pretty clear that "democracy" is focused at the middle-class. Still gullible enough to believe that they can make a collective change and improvement, and also still bearing enough means to realize such plans on a scale enough to be self-satisfactory. Which is why democracy prospers at all.
Personally, I believe that in any society where democratic notion drives and essentially governs people - there is going to be a stop/limit as to where an individual in said society is able to reach (due to the bureaucracy) within a reasonable timeframe. While there naturally are exceptions, I think there is a reason why so many simply "don't care" beyond your speculative supposition that eg. "they're simply genetically predisposed to be untermensch" - I would say that society made them such, due to resource limits.
Logically there is a limit to how many can be within a certain tier. And a reason for why there need to be limits for people to move between tiers. And this in my opinion is the problem of the western societies as a whole. Naturally of course, any proponent for Democracy will disagree with this notion. Particularly those in the most comfortable of all positions (the middle-class) [whereabout I am myself]. Most are quite dandy in following the established habitus, following the democratic norms and clichés (voting is improving society, working 9-5 is good for you, eating less fat and exercising more, and brushing your teeth twice a day will improve your sense of self). Deviating from this norm is uncomfortable for most people, not just by the alienation from your fellow man, but from the realization that spending any time "outside" will detract from the hollow, abstract notion of "improving 'society' through your participation".
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 20:15 Post subject: |
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I love the synergy between your intuition and your intellect Dominae.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 21:08 Post subject: |
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| dominae wrote: | | AnimalMother wrote: |
They're exactly the kinds of people who respond with 'I don't give a shit!' to my poll. These people don't really engage with society much and so they exert little control because they choose not to. |
A lot of people who have both intellect and economic means fall into this category of yoursthough (lack of interest in the cultivation of "society"). It's almost a socialist argument to say (as I interpret your point) that putting energy (through voting, participating or improving) "the society" (which is still vague as a common denominator, but it'll have to do) somehow is the norm everyone should follow. Solidarity is an ideal, though most western societies uphold a pretty low standard of it. And usually (by post-colonial standard) limit the solidarity to a certain group of members of society.
And also as it is, being in a society, having an opinion and a will to affect it does in no way equate to having any such power. What does it matter if one, or a collective of homeless for instance want to change the terms of being able to spend time in the public sphere in NYC (for example). An area which most of them will be removed from through violence, or not.
The notion of solidarity as such is usually focused at the middle-class of most western nations. Which by average equals around 45% of the total population. Lower-class per default generally see politics as a means for the upper tiers of society to execute a level of control of the lower classes, and generally vote (if they vote at all) left to imagine that the levels of control would decrease under such a rule (which usually is wrong). Though in any functioning democracy it is pretty clear that "democracy" is focused at the middle-class. Still gullible enough to believe that they can make a collective change and improvement, and also still bearing enough means to realize such plans on a scale enough to be self-satisfactory. Which is why democracy prospers at all.
Personally, I believe that in any society where democratic notion drives and essentially governs people - there is going to be a stop/limit as to where an individual in said society is able to reach (due to the bureaucracy) within a reasonable timeframe. While there naturally are exceptions, I think there is a reason why so many simply "don't care" beyond your speculative supposition that eg. "they're simply genetically predisposed to be untermensch" - I would say that society made them such, due to resource limits.
Logically there is a limit to how many can be within a certain tier. And a reason for why there need to be limits for people to move between tiers. And this in my opinion is the problem of the western societies as a whole. Naturally of course, any proponent for Democracy will disagree with this notion. Particularly those in the most comfortable of all positions (the middle-class) [whereabout I am myself]. Most are quite dandy in following the established habitus, following the democratic norms and clichés (voting is improving society, working 9-5 is good for you, eating less fat and exercising more, and brushing your teeth twice a day will improve your sense of self). Deviating from this norm is uncomfortable for most people, not just by the alienation from your fellow man, but from the realization that spending any time "outside" will detract from the hollow, abstract notion of "improving 'society' through your participation". |
While you are absolutely right with your statement, you also, undoubtedly realize that this systematic cycle of social and political illusion of the middle and the lower classes on attempting, pointlessly, to improve society by feeding it with more of it's own venom, and the higher classes comfortably allowing this to endure will never change, mainly because this is the only reality each one of them was taught, and the only reality each one of them deems possible, because people will always question the nature of improvement that is not what they already know, they say communism can't be fixed, democracy can never be fixed also, and all the effort that is being done worldwide in trying to fix the failures of democracy will ultimately be pointless, in my perspective, democracy can be compared to an equation which started fairly simple, but as you went down and solve it, the amount of variables that have to be taken into account grow exponentially approaching infinity, democracy will always fail because it was built to favor the majorities, but there will be a point when the minorities are in such large number and so remotely distinct from each other that it would be impossible for any type of democracy to satisfy all involved, to some extent, it already is!
When the system is so corruptly deemed to fail, every effort in trying to fix it is pointless and meaningless, the only meaningful effort that can be made to improve society is to design and implement a new system from the ground up with absolutely no regard to the rescuing of old systems, norms and hierarchies that are proven obsolete and would inherently corrupt the new system.
I am not suggesting that this will happen, I'm only giving my sincere opinion about the only possible way I see society change and breaking away from everything that today makes it such a distasteful system.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
Last edited by Ronhrin on Thu, 9th Jul 2009 21:17; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 21:17 Post subject: |
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Animal is right,
Its been this way for ever, because? because its how they want it to be.. Its why it costs shed loads to go somewhere decent and shitty money to go somewhere mediocre if you want to be taught.
Its the class thing again  your either in or your out.. For the most part anyhow. And anyway they wouldnt want the "stupid" people getting an education or they may not sit on theyre asses no more watching soaps and actually realise how stiffed they are being by goverments etc.
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 21:36 Post subject: |
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| dominae wrote: |
While you are absolutely right with your statement, you also, undoubtedly realize that this systematic cycle of social and political illusion of the middle and the lower classes on attempting, pointlessly, to improve society by feeding it with more of it's own venom, and the higher classes comfortably allowing this to endure will never change |
I am no prophet, but far too often have deterministic prophecies been proved wrong for me to be optimistic as too your predictions. What time-frame we're talking though is a completely different matter. I agree with you if we added the delimeter: in our lifetimes.
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 21:56 Post subject: |
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| dominae wrote: | | dominae wrote: |
While you are absolutely right with your statement, you also, undoubtedly realize that this systematic cycle of social and political illusion of the middle and the lower classes on attempting, pointlessly, to improve society by feeding it with more of it's own venom, and the higher classes comfortably allowing this to endure will never change |
I am no prophet, but far too often have deterministic prophecies been proved wrong for me to be optimistic as too your predictions. What time-frame we're talking though is a completely different matter. I agree with you if we added the delimeter: in our lifetimes. |
I was referring to the fact that society will never change while within a democratic system, and although I concord to the fact that no one can make assumptions about undetermined future events, I still stand for what I said, as being my personal belief and nothing more, but I still have the deep conviction that any democratic system will inevitable lead to failure based on my argument of my previous post.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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deelix
PDIP Member
Posts: 32062
Location: Norway
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 22:42 Post subject: |
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Christ....thought this since I was 13.....so a yes...
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 22:55 Post subject: |
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| SycoShaman wrote: | | Christ....thought this since I was 13.....so a yes... |
Most people at that age do, regretfully, most of them become numb to it somewhere along the line, unfortunately the age when one begins to become aware of the intricacies of the world around them they also become focused on other shallow and futile things, it is also at this age that most of our biological functions go into overdrive, so only few remain aware of it after those ages, but the greater percentage come to the end of adolescence only to become another unquestionable slave of the system.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Thu, 9th Jul 2009 23:45 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | SycoShaman wrote: | | Christ....thought this since I was 13.....so a yes... |
Most people at that age do, regretfully, most of them become numb to it somewhere along the line, unfortunately the age when one begins to become aware of the intricacies of the world around them they also become focused on other shallow and futile things, it is also at this age that most of our biological functions go into overdrive, so only few remain aware of it after those ages, but the greater percentage come to the end of adolescence only to become another unquestionable slave of the system. |
Ooh, I almost get chills recognizing the truth of that statement. Although it has to be said you are a bit too optimistic about things Ron, but that is actually a good thing in most situations.
Syco, you are the perfect example of how the system has failed to capture someone with an incredible intuitive capacity. I think you've only recently realized the significance of that, hence why you're so happy now, severing your ties with your ex-wife probably had a lot to do with that. Though it must be said, you have almost unlimited potential now. You should consider a degree from the open university in your spare time. A formal education in biology and physics would complete you.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Fri, 10th Jul 2009 00:08 Post subject: |
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Fully agree with your statement, if you ever tried the "society is making me unhappy" line with a shrink, you will know their wrath, they will fully explain how it never is the society because you have no power to change it anyway, so its always you.
Needless to say they are fully dependent on the current status quo to have a profitable business.
Still, I myself am human, I am indeed part of this human organism called society, and quite often ashamed of it, the need for greed always amazes me, the countless mafia practices that in the long term always harms ourselves, the shortsightedness of it all.
Sometimes I think humanity is nothing more than a sophisticated planet cleaning mechanism that dies out in the end when its job is done.
Excuse my derailing banter, sometimes I get carried away.
Per Ardua Ad Astra
Last edited by Anticasper on Fri, 10th Jul 2009 00:19; edited 1 time in total
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