Any game build around derpads will have it's mechanics and implicitly, to some degree, it's gameplay limited.
But hey, let's get butt-hurt about someone criticizing another souls-like game.
You younglings have been raised and indoctrinated with gamepads systems and find it all natUrEL. I can't blame you for not understanding the openness in control provided by M/Kb:
• precise camera control and precise movement
• backpedaling
• keys for each weapon
• keys for inventory items
• openness in setting your own favorite input scheme
• more sex
Despite your naiveté (to put it kindly), you are forgiven.
younglings.. sure.. i'm soon 50 and mouse/keyb has been the main controls i've used obviously, though mouse/keyb did not exist when i was young, you used a joystick, analog ones.
this game will be designed around a gamepad so i don't see a problem. its one thing if a game is designed around mouse/keyb and then this has to be converted to gamepad, that might not turn out great.
couldnt care less if select weapon via a key or via some circle on the screen, both have advantages and disadvantages.. backpedaling, no problem unless the game was designed with keyboard where the game is designed around doing that.. in souls game you usually roll back or have the fast-step back..
t's not like mouse/keyb is the ultimate controls either, very far from it, try VR where you can aim to the right and look left etc then mouse/keyb feels kind sucky too and you could argue that all games that doesn't have those type of controls are trashy/far inferior.. but sure, be my guest and have fun with that, better to find another hobby perhaps..
Your 'concern' about my well being in video game industry strolling is noted.
On the other hand, your advice is ill, polarized, derived from ego, and brings nothing to you, me or the discussion.
You younglings (I never referred to the age), still have NOT learned to not take it personally when someone has a different opinion (with arguments).
I did not say anything about people liking or preferring gamepads. No critique!
I did not argued with or attacked anyone that pretended to like gamepads. No comparison!
I only manifested MY OWN view on the subject of games developed with gamepads in mind. My preference!
The main problem with m/kb vs controller conversations on the interwebz is that in 99.999% of cases people argue about them while having zero or negative knowledge on the subject. People who love controllers always take it as a personal affront and proceed with either videos of someone playing or nonsense arguments.
Llistening to gdc's of older games trying to force them on consoles or reading dev articles up until this day for Diablo 2 resurected for example, the number 1 issue is always trying to make the game playable on pads because they are so deficient in every way.
You can think of controllers as perpetual brakes and limiters in gameplay and design. If designing a game that doesnt take into account controllers, your imagination is the limit of that games features, gameplay, design, interactions, etc. When doing a pad game, everything you do is filtered by "does it work on a gamepad ? Can it be done on a gamepad ? Wont it be too difficult on a gamepad ?"
The reason console games have dozens of layers of assists for every thing imaginable is not because controllers are so awesome for gaming, its because thats what you need in order to perceive games as playable
You can think of controllers as perpetual brakes and limiters in gameplay and design. If designing a game that doesnt take into account controllers, your imagination is the limit of that games features, gameplay, design, interactions, etc. When doing a pad game, everything you do is filtered by "does it work on a gamepad ? Can it be done on a gamepad ? Wont it be too difficult on a gamepad ?"
The reason console games have dozens of layers of assists for every thing imaginable is not because controllers are so awesome for gaming, its because thats what you need in order to perceive games as playable
Sig worthy.
You are a wise human being, my friend.
The 'assists' in gamepad design and gameplay are not only crutches but are also insulting and aim to lower the abilities and involvement of the player.
Why use "brainwashed younglings" if you're not referring to age? why claim we're raised with gamepads? I bet very few here are actually. Like i said, the bigger portion of my own gaming life has been mouse/keyboard. I can't speak for everyone but i know there are many in their 40-50's here and many (mainly) PC users on the forum. This is not a very console based forum, never has been.
You're free to dream about a different game and have different opinions in the thread, but to use your own words it can be i'll advised to say "limit brain" and then complain about "butthurt", "attacked", "i can't have an opinion" when people respond with arguments.
When doing a pad game, everything you do is filtered by "does it work on a gamepad ? Can it be done on a gamepad ?
For a souls-like or a Diablo game, hardly. For a platformer, no, for any driving game, no - i can go on for a very long time... No one is arguing that a few game genres are better with mouse/keyb, or that converting a mouse/keyb game to gamepad sometimes is not exactly optimal because it's designed differently..
blackeyedboy wrote:
^ Why did you chose to identify yourself with those 'younglings', my friend?! Oh perhaps you felt compelled to act like one(?).
I did not identify, so that's why i opposed it. again, who are you referring to in the thread? if it's not us, then who are the "you younglings"? is it ghosts? I act like a youngling because i have arguments? ok sure.
When doing a pad game, everything you do is filtered by "does it work on a gamepad ? Can it be done on a gamepad ?
For a souls-like or a Diablo game, hardly. For a platformer, no, for any driving game, no - i can go on for a very long time... No one is arguing that a few game genres are better with mouse/keyb, or that converting a mouse/keyb game to gamepad sometimes is not exactly optimal because it's designed differently..
Go on then, keep going. You think Diablo and its clones were almost completely absent from consoles for their entire life until recently because of how good they convert to it ? Look at Diablo 2, autoaim for everything to the point you're not even basically playing the game, inventory management where the sticks emulate a cursor, with all the fun that entails and powers like the barbarian jump that go randomly nowhere because you cant aim.
As i've said, discussions like this always go very predictable. I know for a fact what controller designed means straight from countless developers and post mortems. All the minutia this requires and various alterations and concessions. You're arguing from a position of zero knowledge and gut feelings
you must have missed an entire era of games if you believe the best games always had mouse/keyb.. maybe you're both... younglings... with only PC experience. games designed around mouse/keyb will usually be best with that, games designed around controller will almost always be best with that.
Again, Diablo 1 was on console, we've already had this tiring discussion. i've played many clones and apart from one they had controller option. Not really my favorite genre, but at least mildly better with gamepad imo.. There can be shitty gamepad designs for games just as well as any other design can be poor, i'm not saying it's always been perfectly implemented, far from it.
Haven't played Diablo 2 but i doubt it has "auto aim for everything", i'll try the remake once its released.
yes the discussion is predictable, it's also funny how you always claim others get butthurt when you at the same time act like a small child who just got his favorite toy taken from him lol
its not a gut feeling - there are tons of games designed these days with a controller in mind, first and foremost, where they have to think "how will this work with mouse and keyboard" when it's getting a PC port, sometimes that turns out shit and i would never argue thats because mouse/keyb sucks, it's because laziness, poor design. it goes both ways, and i believe you know that.
Last edited by vurt on Sun, 22nd Aug 2021 14:04; edited 1 time in total
The discussion is predictable because people who are uninformed about the subject keep trying to discuss it and think they understand how things work.
Quote:
there are tons of games designed these days with a controller in mind, first and foremost, where they have to think "how will this work with mouse and keyboard"
No, actually they dont have to think that. Its precisely the opposite. The recommendation of UI designers sadly is to develop it first to be functional on gamepads because mouse/keyboard can always work with them, while the inverse is not true.
This conversation will never stop being weird because you have developers, after they made games, telling you black on white what the troubles were, but here we are anyway, inventing stuff that its not actually that bad.
The Diablo 1 version for PS1 was inferior in every way. There weren't many Hack & Slash games on consoles until recently. The one that comes to mind from the past is Dungeon Siege 3 which was designed with consoles in minds and we all saw how that turned out.
Last edited by Nodrim on Sun, 22nd Aug 2021 14:12; edited 2 times in total
If you're talking about mainstream games then of course its designed with the console release (and thus the gamepad) in mind. Doesnt take a genius to figure out.
Nodrim wrote:
The Diablo 1 version for PS1 was inferior in many ways.
The Diablo 1 version for PS1 was inferior in every way. There weren't many Hack & Slash games on consoles until recently. The one that comes to mind from the past is Dungeon Siege 3 which was designed with consoles in minds and we all saw how that turned out.
yeah, Diablo 1 was one of the ports from that period that was made just because. There were a lot of pc to console ports that were borderline nonfunctional. I mean, warcraft, command and conquer, red alert and so on, they were putting successful pc games on console weather they were working or not.
The original Dooms for example, missing levels,missing enemies, the levels that are there are rearanged because they didnt have enough memory - they made it anyway. The original Deus Ex - they cut the levels, they removed the inventory, the health system, the terminal interactions and much more. They literally could not port a single thing from PC to ps2 as it was. They did it anyway. Diablo 1 was the same thing
Until after Diablo 3 hit consoles and Larian ported Original Sin on consoles, these types of games were almost entirely absent from consoles for decades, their entire lives. I could not even name you a single console only Diablo style game other than Dark Alliance
Doesn't mean anything, plenty of other isometric and third person games on consoles, no limitations for that... Is the movement ever so slightly more precise with a mouse, like always yes it is, does that invalidate the other benefits (superb ergonomics in comparison, for example) for a gamepad, no. If it does for you, ok, have fun, play with mouse/keyb.
Personally i think keyb/mouse is inferior to VR, far far inferior in e.g FPS games, more ergonomic controls, more advanced... if we really want to go into the absolutely best option which currently is available. Probably better to start another topic for that, but to me its not too interesting. i mean there's not too much to say and too much has been said here already and i will just begin to repeat myself.
If you look hard enough with anything there's always something to bitch and moan about, graphics, controls, sound.. and i do it myself too so i'm not saying you shouldn't. maybe there was a time when i cared about super precision, currently for me its all about ergonomics.
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