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 Posted: Tue, 29th Dec 2020 19:52 Post subject: |
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| vurt wrote: | | qqq wrote: |
You dont need to click, you can hold the mouse button and have the absolute best granular movement possible. Controllers are a downgrade in every way. You need to nerf the gamedesign in every aspect to accomodate them. |
controllers are far, far superior for any third person game, including isometric games, it's only people who sucks at using controllers who would even argue like that. you don't need to "nerf" anything. I've played Grim Dawn for so long with both that i know what kind of upgrade a controller is in comparison, both for immersion and for ergonomics.
You're right you can hold the button down (like a retard, just awful way of controlling movement imo, not comfortable at all) and you do get the precise movements of a mouse. but they're absolutely not needed for a game like this, again, it's only people who are really bad at controllers who would argue like that. you can do super fine movements with a controller if you need it, and sure it does takes practice. |
Controllers are far, far inferior for both isometric and especially 3rd person. Problem is most people understand around zero about how this works. Otherwise people who say 1st person is better on m/kb and 3rd person on pads would realize how ridiculous that sounds.
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Dec 2020 19:52 Post subject: |
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| vurt wrote: |
controllers are far, far superior for any third person game. |
In many 3rd person games, like Witcher 3 for example, on keyboard and mouse I can turn the camera while I move my character while I press the dodge button. You can't really do all that simultaneously on a controller without some really weird finger gymnastics. You kinda have to let go of the right joystick to initiate a dodge or roll, while you remain in full control on mouse+keyboard.
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Dec 2020 19:59 Post subject: |
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Diablo III played amazing on controller on console, i actually always wanted controller support for PC, but other than that, i never play on controller with PC.
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vurt
Posts: 13833
Location: Sweden
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Sin317
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Dec 2020 20:04 Post subject: |
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I can see it working for dumbed down arpg's, if you only need 2-3 active skills and 2 potions then it fits the control scheme. I do think it compromises the game design though, controller promotes dumbing down the inventory, skills, movement (imagine any POE end content with a controller).
Been a long time since played Titan Quest but I don't remember it using a lot of skills / buttons.
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vurt
Posts: 13833
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Dec 2020 20:14 Post subject: |
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I find disgusting to play 3rd person games with controller, you constantly must move right stick with your right thumb to adjust camera, there is no break accept auto camera. With mouse it's easier and more energy efficient to control camera.
I play 99,9% with only keyboard and mouse but playing games like grim dawn with controller is more energy efficient and easier, with mouse you constantly have to aim and that is draining mental energy (except if you are holding shift).
In inventory i use mouse.
Why walk, when you can ride.
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Dec 2020 20:21 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 15:29; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Dec 2020 20:27 Post subject: |
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| AmpegV4 wrote: | I can see it working for dumbed down arpg's, if you only need 2-3 active skills and 2 potions then it fits the control scheme. I do think it compromises the game design though, controller promotes dumbing down the inventory, skills, movement (imagine any POE end content with a controller).
Been a long time since played Titan Quest but I don't remember it using a lot of skills / buttons. |
One of Titan Quest's (and Grim Dawn's) biggest flaws is its over reliance on passive skill nodes. You're never really using more than two or three active skills on most builds in those games.
As far as a game design being compromised (the game being built from the ground up) with controllers in mind - one needs look no further than Victor Vran in the aRPG genre to see the results of that.
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Dec 2020 20:45 Post subject: |
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I agree with the lack of skill use comment but I think part of that is to intentionally limit active skills so the gamepads "have enough buttons" to work with at any given time. While I agree this sounds lame, especially coming from the days of DOS Doom where we had 1-9 and even a double use key here and there, it still worked for PC players and with no action-wheel either.
I guess you pretty much stated that in your second sentence, so yeah, I second your comments  . I think there's some pros in there, but us OG PC players could make just about anything work.
| couleur wrote: | Everything I don't understand is a mental disorder.  |
| couleur wrote: | | If the illegals are drowning its their fault for attempting to cross the river in the first place. Especially the children. /s |
| russ80 wrote: | | Who cares about gameplay. It's one of the few next-gen looking titles out there so BRING IT ON. |
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vurt
Posts: 13833
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue, 29th Dec 2020 21:01 Post subject: |
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having thousands of buttons to keep track of is never optimal, no matter if its keyb or if its on a controller. i don't particularly like RDR2's controller for example, they feel really messy.
voice controlling is underrated too, though i've not used it for years (to be honest its been like 20 years lol). for some games its super immersive, like SWAT 3 when you just tell your team mates what to do, don't need to remember any shitty keyboard combos. yes you do need to remember what to say, but you can have variations of it. takes a while to set up, but really stellar once its done..
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 07:22 Post subject: |
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Since this is an ARPG title and we are now debating the benefits of a controller.....
What about ARPG's where you can place a turret or dummy.....
How exactly would you do that with a controller? You would only be able to choose the direction of the placement, not the distance....
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 08:12 Post subject: |
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^ theres no debate  There is no instance where a controller is better in a game of this type. Its a continuous sequence of adjusting the design of the games and implementing assists for everything in order to make the illusion that this genre is playable on pads. Blizzard lowered the camera, readjusted the AI, lowered the dmg of enemies, reduced their numbers, altered the cooldown time, autoaim for ranged attacks, designed the combat scenarios so that precision hits are not required, implemented roll as a difficult situation escape feature, because on pc you have a pathfinding algorithm that does the movement when you click somehwhere while you can do other actions like atack, use an ability. On pads you are limited by the dirrect controls so they put dodge to help you. Its a feature in place due to a pads deficiency as an input tool
There's a "debate" because some people really enjoy pads and they wanna show really hard how its an awesome input device because they dont understand the details and work that go into gameplay and design in order to give games the appearance of playability on these utter shit tools.
For example, you can see pretty often the claim that 3rd person games are better on pad. You go play on a pad and the game snaps the crosshair onto the enemies, the crosshair slows down automatically when it enters an enemies hitbox, the bullets bend towards the target even if you shot above it. You have three layers of assists just for shooting. On PC, with m/kb, you actually have to track the target, to aim at it by yourself, nobody is slowing and snapping the mouse towards it. You actually have to hit it. Its harder, theres nothing automated. So when people use pads and all these are done by the game, behind the scenes, a lot of gamers think they're the ones that actually played the game and conclude pads work so well with games. Even though the game played itself with its assists
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Sin317
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 08:38 Post subject: |
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I love playing games in my bed or on my TV and these type of games simply are awesome for that.
And how exactly would placing a turret be difficult with a controller?
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vurt
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 13:44 Post subject: |
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In most third person games you can remove snapping to target, it's there for newbies. Yeah, you really know nothing of game design. If you think controllers are limited in any way it just means you can't think outside the little PC box (bubble). Any third person game is just superior with a gamepad, and again, mostly so because they are designed with it in mind from the first place. Not the case here and they do seem to take their time with it, so hopefully it'll be good.
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 13:58 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 14:11 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 15:29; edited 1 time in total
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Sin317
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 14:44 Post subject: |
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It's not about what is better. Only kids argue that way.
"Of course kb/m is better, for most games"
...when I am sitting at my desk...
Ever tried to play a game laying in bed or on the couch with kbm? It sucks...
And who cares about kb/m vs controller in 1vs1 or whatever. Really, who the fuck cares?
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 14:52 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 15:29; edited 2 times in total
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vurt
Posts: 13833
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 14:53 Post subject: |
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| Yondaime wrote: |
Interesting, so you're arguing that if we were to pit the top K/M-using FPS gamers in 1v1s against the top controller FPS gamers (and no cheating handicaps) then it would be an even match? |
For FPS games i've already said that mouse has better aim. my argument was third person games.
and you can bet games like valhalla, dark souls and even witcher 3 was first and foremost done with a controller in mind, not mouse+keyb.
any game where you control a group or strategy games i do prefer to play with a mouse, it's not what i consider "third person games" and no one refers to them as that. starcraft, desperados, commandos etc are isometric games.
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 15:00 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 15:29; edited 1 time in total
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vurt
Posts: 13833
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 15:04 Post subject: |
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no witcher 3 has bugs with mouse/keyb, like i said earlier, i argued in the Witcher 3 thread, people had problems with e.g boat controls, i asked them if they used mouse/keyb and they did. their loss... controller has no problems with the boat controls or anything else, it's flawless.
i prefer game pad for third person games including ARPG's (isometric you could argue i guess).. for comfort, immersion yes, i do find them far superior for e.g Grim Dawn where i tried extensively mouse/keyb and then controller...
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 15:07 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 15:29; edited 1 time in total
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vurt
Posts: 13833
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 15:18 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 15:29; edited 1 time in total
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vurt
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Sin317
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 16:54 Post subject: |
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You guys are having a black or white argument about something grey...
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| Posted: Wed, 30th Dec 2020 21:13 Post subject: |
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Played TQ right after release. Cant remember shit.
Is it worth playing now? Waiting for Wolcen to get fixed, and Last Epoch for 1.0 release.
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