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LeoNatan
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 10:52 Post subject: |
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300 people isn't a lot. What diversity will there be in the games they would play? If they all only play TF2 with it, would be hardly representative.
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 11:06 Post subject: |
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LeoNatan wrote: | 300 people isn't a lot. What diversity will there be in the games they would play? If they all only play TF2 with it, would be hardly representative. |
That's silly.
You are saying "they are shipping it to 300 people? That isn't a lot."
How come you don't say "I didn't hear Sony shipping their controller to people. I mean 0 people? That's bad. It's going to play like shit."
Because you know they bring people in to test it. Which Valve have always done for games ( http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2009/GDC2009_ValvesApproachToPlaytesting.pdf ) => surely they'll do it for HW as well.
But external testing will probably be very useful as well.
The devs that tested it have been platformer creators, RTS creators, TP(something) creators (IO Interactive) (and maybe more) so it definitely seems like they are looking to make it good for many genres.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
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LeoNatan
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Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 11:16 Post subject: |
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Sony's controller requires no functional testing whatsoever, it is the same one as the controller on the PS1.
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 11:19 Post subject: |
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Fine. Replace that with MS designing/testing the 360 controller which was something new for them (their Xbox 1 controller was just " ").
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
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LeoNatan
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Posts: 73213
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 11:26 Post subject: |
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Microsoft is actually known for doing very extensive testing, sometimes (and lately almost always) to their detriment.
Not sure what you mean about XB1 controller, it has the same positioning of elements as the 360 controller. I am almost certain they changed the positions of the analog sticks and buttons due to a patent by Sony. And indeed, Sony's controller is a winning formula, it is much more ergonomic and easy on the hands for longer play times than Microsoft's. But hey, patents.
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xExtreme
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 11:38 Post subject: |
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 11:39 Post subject: |
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LeoNatan wrote: | Microsoft is actually known for doing very extensive testing, sometimes (and lately almost always) to their detriment.
Not sure what you mean about XB1 controller, it has the same positioning of elements as the 360 controller. I am almost certain they changed the positions of the analog sticks and buttons due to a patent by Sony. And indeed, Sony's controller is a winning formula, it is much more ergonomic and easy on the hands for longer play times than Microsoft's. But hey, patents. |
Will i always prefered xbox360 positioning of sticks
3080 | ps5 pro
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LeoNatan
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 11:44 Post subject: |
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That's because there is motion blur going on between the sticks and the dpad. 
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JackQ
Non-expret in Derps lagunge
Posts: 14179
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 11:50 Post subject: |
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well,they did improved their controller before the 360 arrived:
Spoiler: | |
"Fuck Denuvo"
Your personal opinions != the rest of the forum
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 11:52 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Tue, 5th Oct 2021 02:57; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 12:00 Post subject: |
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LeoNatan wrote: | Microsoft is actually known for doing very extensive testing, sometimes (and lately almost always) to their detriment.
Not sure what you mean about XB1 controller, it has the same positioning of elements as the 360 controller. I am almost certain they changed the positions of the analog sticks and buttons due to a patent by Sony. And indeed, Sony's controller is a winning formula, it is much more ergonomic and easy on the hands for longer play times than Microsoft's. But hey, patents. |
You can question the design decisions about all original gamepads. The NES (d-pad + 2 buttons). The SNES (4 buttons + 2 shoulder). The N64 (analogue thumb stick + trigger button). The Dreamcast (analogue shoulder buttons). They all worked for their intended purpose, because they were rigorously tested by both engineers and game developers. So, the question becomes, why do you distrust Valve, when you wouldn't/don't distrust Nintendo/Sega/Sony?
Pixieking
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Last edited by Pixieking on Sat, 28th Sep 2013 12:03; edited 1 time in total
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LeoNatan
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Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 12:03 Post subject: |
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I obviously distrust Valve more because they want to change. Isn't it logical? Sony has made such little changes to its controllers, what is to be distrustful about?
But I am distrustful of this controller because I don't believe it really is a better alternative. Maybe for specific genres, but not the ones I use my controller for.
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 12:10 Post subject: |
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Change can be innovative. I get the distrust, but without innovation, PC gaming will be as it always was. Whilst that's great, it means there's nothing "more" to it. It's also like saying the Rift is bad, because it's not traditional, surely? It doesn't have to be "better". It doesn't have to be the only choice (in fact it isn't). It's just something.
Pixieking
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ASUS P8P67 Evo - Intel i7 3770k - 2X4GB GSkill RipJaws X DDR3 1600 - HIS 7950 IceQ - Creative XtremeMusic Soundcard - NZXT Phantom 530 - Thermaltake Toughpower XT 675 - Win7 x64
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 12:13 Post subject: |
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If it was meant to be the only choice it would belong to a console.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 12:14 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 22:05; edited 1 time in total
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LeoNatan
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Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 12:17 Post subject: |
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Pixieking wrote: | Change can be innovative. I get the distrust, but without innovation, PC gaming will be as it always was. Whilst that's great, it means there's nothing "more" to it. It's also like saying the Rift is bad, because it's not traditional, surely? It doesn't have to be "better". It doesn't have to be the only choice (in fact it isn't). It's just something. |
I am not saying that it's bad because it's different, I am saying it's bad because it is unnecessarily different. There is a reason why keyboards and mice have remained conceptually the same since their inception. Now Microsoft attempts to replace them, and we all know how well they are faring.
And addressing change, for example touch controls on tablets - they are different, but I have never complained "why is there no mouse for my iPad, this sucks". But being different for the sake of difference is stupid. What innovation is there here? Unergonomic controller? No thanks for this "innovation".
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 12:28 Post subject: |
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You are convinced it's unergonomic, but first impressions by people who have used it are very positive.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73213
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 12:40 Post subject: |
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Pixieking wrote: | LeoNatan wrote: |
I am not saying that it's bad because it's different, I am saying it's bad because it is unnecessarily different. There is a reason why keyboards and mice have remained conceptually the same since their inception.
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Yes, because they do their required jobs perfectly. But they needn't be the be-all-and-end-all of PC gaming.
As an aside to this debate about the Valve Pad, how easy do you think it is for people with missing digits or reduced mobility to play games? Isn't innovation of some sort needed if we're to broaden the gaming arena to, say, members of the Yakuza who have behaved improperly?
Also, that entire post of your's can be used as an argument against the Rift and Omni. Mouse/keyboard works fine, after all. |
How does this pad solve invalid gaming problem? I am not against innovation, I am against needless innovation.
Omni looks uninteresting to me. I play games to rest, not run around and do physical activity. And as we had a discussion before, without a true feeling of force, this kind of control is illogical and can cause severe nausea with something like the Rift, where you are able to continue moving while being stuck in a wall in the virtual world.
My doubts about the Rift are not technological. Well, they are, in the sense that the technology is not there yet to deliver a painless 3d virtualization. (More on that later.) My main skepticism about Rift is my prediction of lack of support from "AAA" developers. I have my doubts that it would be very successful outside of the indie/niche markets.
On technology, the way eyes work when scanning is very advanced and cannot be replicated currently. Your eyes have tiny shifts to give enough information to the brain to measure depth. Well, but the images output from the two monitors is static. So your eyes perform their small shifts and the image does not change, so the brain asks for a little more drastic changes. Over time, this really stresses the eyes and you get a headache. Some people are more susceptible than others, as usual. But this is an open-ended problem currently.
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 13:22 Post subject: |
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 13:35 Post subject: |
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Pixieking wrote: | I'm curious what you thought of the N64 controller whenyou first saw it/used it. To me, the Valve Pad is the same leap that Nintendo made with that controller. Yes, it looks weird. Yes, the control scheme is based off of current technology, but... Not. Yes, if you've got hands that are too big/small it's going to be uncomfortable (maybe?). Yes, your thumbs have a lot to do sometimes. But Mario 64 showed that, in the right hands (ba-dum-tish), none of that mattered to how the game played. |
Yes because the N64 pad eschewed the d-pad and the physical buttons, I'm sorry, I completely forgot about that. *sigh* Sometimes I think people deliberately discount everything I say because "Fuck Sabin" I don't care about the analogue sticks, I don't use them for "aiming" anyhow - I care about the principle controls; d-pad and face buttons. I feel I have been crystal clear on this point so far. The N64 controller itself was incredible, the analogue stick was responsive (even though it used to "cheese" up something chronic) and the six-button face layout was awesome - it made fighting games a joy to play, that coupled with the shoulder buttons, an additional trigger, and the famed Nintendo AWESOME d-pad of AWESOMENESS mean it was a goofy looking controller.. but a great one that had everything you need. This? Removes all that! Removes the d-pad, remove the sticks, removes the face buttons and instead replaces them with two touchpads that *supposedly* mimics the "feel" of a d-pad and buttons. The N64 comparison is deeply flawed :\
Last edited by sabin1981 on Sat, 28th Sep 2013 13:41; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 13:40 Post subject: |
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I wasn't discounting what you said, I just regard the N64 pad as a leap away from the norm of the time. Just like this. So I was curious about your thoughts on it.
In addition, whilst I love the analogue stick of the N64 pad, I think it's uncomfortable for long periods, and very counter-intuitive - it was counter-intuitive at the time, and I think still is, due to it being so unusual. So, again, similarities between people's feelings on the Valve Pad, and my feelings on the N64 pad.
Pixieking
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ASUS P8P67 Evo - Intel i7 3770k - 2X4GB GSkill RipJaws X DDR3 1600 - HIS 7950 IceQ - Creative XtremeMusic Soundcard - NZXT Phantom 530 - Thermaltake Toughpower XT 675 - Win7 x64
Last edited by Pixieking on Sat, 28th Sep 2013 13:42; edited 2 times in total
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 13:46 Post subject: |
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Posted: Sat, 28th Sep 2013 13:52 Post subject: |
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Pixieking wrote: | I wasn't discounting what you said, I just regard the N64 pad as a leap away from the norm of the time. Just like this. So I was curious about your thoughts on it.  |
I'm really not against innovation or leaps, I'm not and I'm sorry if I gave off that impression. I just think that rather than fixing the singular problem with current controllers (the analogue sticks and their failings) Valve has decided to Innovate For Innovation's Sake and it's not really helping anyone :\ That and all this haptic technology is just going to come with a higher price - which is already obscene as it is, with PS360 controllers costing £35+ each and the upcoming XBPS4 ones being £55! How much is this Owlpad going to cost? £60? £70? Oh but it's PACKED with TECHNOLOGY! All that TECHNOLOGY has to be worth £99 of anyone's money, right?
Quote: |
In addition, whilst I love the analogue stick of the N64 pad, I think it's uncomfortable for long periods, and very counter-intuitive - it was counter-intuitive at the time, and I think still is, due to it being so unusual. So, again, similarities between people's feelings on the Valve Pad, and my feelings on the N64 pad. |
What lets the N64 stick down is also what lets the PS sticks down; stability. The 360 got that right by building indentations into the sticks, so you always have something to stabilise your thumb with, you don't slide off the stick after prolonged play or with exertion. At least you still had the d-pad, at least you still had the face buttons - as far as I'm concerned it has been the de facto standard for over 20 years for a REASON. Not because people are afraid of change, but simply because this is the design that works. Tweak it, change the sticks, add pressure sensitive buttons, change the layouts, whatever, but the quintessential design has remained fairly constant.
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