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 Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 00:21 Post subject: AMD aiming to simplify console -> PC ports for nextgen |
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http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/desktop-pc/3450872/amd-hopes-to-bridge-gap-between-xbox-playstation-and-pcs/?
| Quote: | The company announced Wednesday its "Unified Gaming Strategy," which the company hopes will make games playable on PCs and gaming consoles with minimal modifications in code.
AMD will work with developers on writing games that can be run across PCs, mobile devices and through the cloud, AMD executives said at a press conference Wednesday at the Computex trade show in Taiwan.
"Kaveri is the future of processing," Su said.
Kaveri is the first chip based on the specification established by the AMD-led HSA (Heterogeneous System Architecture), which aims to make applications portable across different devices including PCs, game consoles, tablets and smartphones. The specification abstracts the processing units in a system, making it easier for developers to write code without worrying about the specific processors on which it will be executed.
"It is absolutely the end goal to create a development ecosystem where first-party games will be written to the games consoles first ... but providing the capability to leverage that investment into PC market, into mobile form factors, into cloud. Definitely there's that desire," said Su in an interview after the press conference. |
For more read the article.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 00:49 Post subject: I have left. |
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 01:28 Post subject: |
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I see the next generation of the "TWIMTBP vs AMD Gaming Evolved" battle. All console ports will be "AMD Gaming Evolved" titles by default and nVidia GPUs will have a hard time running those games. Mark my words.
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 02:19 Post subject: |
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yeah,do not start at the pc first.hell,let`s develop games on smartphones and just upscale
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
Posts: 65081
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 04:11 Post subject: |
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I only hope the gameplay isn't simplified too, this current generation of consoles already brought us cancer in abundance when it comes to accessibility if compared to the Xbox/PS2 era.
Who am I kidding, of course things will get worse, I can already see that AwesomeButton Rev.2.0 since everything in the future will revolve around graphics, dat cinematic feel and hollywoodian sensationalism.
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 06:42 Post subject: |
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| ixigia wrote: | | I only hope the gameplay isn't simplified too, |
It isn't. Because it can't get more simplified. Except if they don't just make the games as one big cutscene lol
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 07:04 Post subject: |
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| BettyShikle wrote: | | yeah,do not start at the pc first.hell,let`s develop games on smartphones and just upscale |
You always develop for the lowest common denominator. It's the case even with multi-platform console exclusives, unless you make a completely separate game with the same name (as often happened with the Wii).
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 09:38 Post subject: |
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| me7 wrote: | | I see the next generation of the "TWIMTBP vs AMD Gaming Evolved" battle. All console ports will be "AMD Gaming Evolved" titles by default and nVidia GPUs will have a hard time running those games. Mark my words. |
Yeah...no. If the roles were reversed, yes, but Gaming Evolved is a marketing brand, not a fuck-all-but-our-customers brand like TWIMTBP. Which of the GE titles run badly on Nvidia or disable features for Nvidia? TressFX for example, useless as it may be, runs fine on Nvidia (it needed some toning down for some of them because GK104 didn't improve compute capabilities, but that's another matter).
No, this is something where I'm glad it's not Nvidia and hope that AMD do deliver - at worst they don't and everyone gets the shit ports. |
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 10:43 Post subject: |
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| me7 wrote: | | I see the next generation of the "TWIMTBP vs AMD Gaming Evolved" battle. All console ports will be "AMD Gaming Evolved" titles by default and nVidia GPUs will have a hard time running those games. Mark my words. |
Well, it simply depends on who pays more, no? So I can see the number of titles being split in half but I don't see AMD dominating because that would mean nvidia giving up. I don't believe it.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY |
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 11:56 Post subject: |
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That was Nvidia's fuckup. Rolling back one driver version fixed the crashing. Not quite the same as not allowing AA on AMD cards or forcing PhysX down the developer's throat.
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 12:53 Post subject: |
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When the game launched nvidia had no profile because they didn't have access to the title during development. I should know because I maintain this: http://www.nfohump.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=66392
The game had poor performance on nvidia. Nothing we haven't seen for nvidia sponsored titles of course and how they suffer on AMD until they are able to release drivers.
Fair point about the AA (in a single title out of the hundreds/thousands) but what does it even mean forcing PhysX down the developer's throat  How does it work against the developers?
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 13:04 Post subject: |
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Ok, here it is: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49051185&postcount=927
| Quote: | We are aware of major performance and stability issues with GeForce GPUs running Tomb Raider with maximum settings.
Unfortunately, NVIDIA didn’t receive final code until this past weekend which substantially decreased stability, image quality and performance over a build we were previously provided. We are working closely with Crystal Dynamics to address and resolve all game issues as quickly as possible.
In the meantime, we would like to apologize to GeForce users that are not able to have a great experience playing Tomb Raider, as they have come to expect with all of their favorite PC games. |
Sending the final code the weekend (2-3 March) that nobody works, and the game launched on the 5th. Giving nvidia exactly one day (4th March) to work on it.
The previous build they had access to must have been very old, since they never made a profile for it (no point if things are going to change) and faced major problems when the game launched.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 15:01 Post subject: |
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| consolitis wrote: | | what does it even mean forcing PhysX down the developer's throat How does it work against the developers? |
There's other middleware that can do the same.
| consolitis wrote: | | The previous build they had access to must have been very old, since they never made a profile for it (no point if things are going to change) and faced major problems when the game launched. |
And yet 310.90 (I think) worked fine. |
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 18:02 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | | consolitis wrote: | | what does it even mean forcing PhysX down the developer's throat How does it work against the developers? |
There's other middleware that can do the same. |
And nobody forces them not to use that "other" middleware.
Here is how things go:
Rocksteady is developing Batman: AA on UE3 with PhysX. nvidia approaches Eidos "hey Eidos would you be interested in using some advanced PhysX effects in your already PhysX-based title? Yes / no?"
It's not like a game was using eg Havok and then nvidia comes out of nowhere and says "here's x amount of money to replace your whole physics engine with PhysX and start from scratch".
So really there's no forcing them. It's the other way around. nvidia targets developers that had already decided to use PhysX.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY |
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 18:58 Post subject: |
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| consolitis wrote: | | So really there's no forcing them. It's the other way around. nvidia targets developers that had already decided to use PhysX. |
Oh, but there is. What those developers use PhysX for, is the stuff that can not run on the GPU. Ragdolls, for example (PhysX, like Havok, is more than soft-/rigid body physics). In comes Nvidia with the bribe, to have them extend that PhysX use into a lot of secondary effects. Some of those I couldn't care less about. The particles for example are a bloody joke; look at Metro: LL as a perfect example of how utterly ugly they are (shoot a wall - wall stays undamaged, yet "particles" the size of a tennis ball shoot out).
But some of them, such as volumetric fog or cloth you don't see in non-TWIMTBP titles that do use PhysX. Yet you do see the things often limited to PhysX in TWIMTBP titles in those other games - which would be fine, if the CPU codepath of PhysX before 3.0 hadn't been as bad as it is. So yes, Nvidia does impose limits with their bag of cash; that bag of cash goes to the publisher as well, which in turn tells the developer to do that.
Edit: and that's ignoring all the shit that doesn't need to be GPU accelerated. The Scarecrow scenes in AA look much better when PhysX is on, even though there's hardly any GPU accelerated physics going on, that could've been scripted - 95% of it already is. Or the fact that without PhysX there's usually more -mostly non-interactive- debris on the ground, which adds to the overall look of the game. That kind of thing. PhysX is a cancer to gamers. For hardcore Nvidia fans it's fine, but those of us who don't always have Nvidia -which I did for Batman: AA and did when PhysX first came to Nvidia- fucking hate it, because it means on one playthrough it's all fine and the next time you upgrade you suddenly see a half empty world because of some crappy ass middleware that got in via a bribe.
I never liked PhysX, I still don't and I never will until 3.x is widely used in games and proven to be anywhere near Havok in terms of all-round performance. I don't expect it to switch to C++ AMP/OpenCL/DirectCompute or anything, but until the discrepancy between having an Nvidia card or not is reduced by a crapload, it remains a cancer that needs to be purged. |
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 21:00 Post subject: |
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So as I already said there's no forcing them to adopt PhysX. "Bad performance" or "looks bad" is a reason to hate it, not an argument for believing its being forced upon developers;
| Quote: | | The Scarecrow scenes in AA look much better when PhysX is on, even though there's hardly any GPU accelerated physics going on, that could've been scripted - 95% of it already is. |
I agree it can be replicated much more efficiently, but the developers did not want to do that. It has nothing to do with nvidia. It's not like before nvidia stepped in there was an impressive scripted animation and then nvidia told them you are going to remove it and make it exclusive to PhysX (GPU). It's the other way around; nvidia plays a build and suggests scenes and materials that can be enhanced with PhysX.
So could it be done more efficiently? YES. Would it be done? NO. The only reason the effect exists in the first place is that nvidia paid for it.
Consider this:
Alice: Madness Returns showed how hair physics can be done even on consoles(!!) efficiently (and that was programmed by a single guy), but nope AMD came up with a much much much heavier implementation that favors their cards (not artificially, purely because they are better on compute, but that's not the point).
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 21:04 Post subject: |
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BTW looks like UE4 ships with PhysX, like UE3.
http://www.unrealengine.com/en/news/epic_games_launches_unreal_engine_4_integrated_partners_program/#
| Quote: | | CARY, N.C. Epic Games, Inc. announces the Unreal Engine 4 Integrated Partners Program (IPP), which brings together leading middleware technologies and software that are integrated with Epic’s Unreal Engine 4 game engine. |
| Quote: | Audiokinetic – Wwise
Autodesk – Autodesk Gameware
Donya Labs – Simplygon
Geomerics– Enlighten
IDV – SpeedTree for Games
Intel – Intel Threading Building Blocks (TBB)
NaturalMotion – morpheme and euphoria
NVIDIA – PhysX and APEX
Oculus VR – Oculus Rift
RAD Game Tools – Bink Video and Telemetry Performance Visualizer
RealD – RealD Developer Kit (RDK)
Umbra Software – Umbra 3
Xoreax – IncrediBuild-XGE |
| Quote: | | “We have taken the time to integrate UE4 with the best middleware technologies so our licensees can stay focused on making great games.” |
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 21:29 Post subject: |
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| consolitis wrote: | | I agree it can be replicated much more efficiently, but the developers did not want to do that. It has nothing to do with nvidia. It's not like before nvidia stepped in there was an impressive scripted animation and then nvidia told them you are going to remove it and make it exclusive to PhysX (GPU). It's the other way around; nvidia plays a build and suggests scenes and materials that can be enhanced with PhysX. |
Bullshit. No self-respecting developer, especially not Rocksteady who've put so much into the rest of the game, would cripple the game for half their audience like that. And you're still missing my point: it's the publishers that tell the developers to work with Nvidia because of the money. And ultimately, without a publisher many studios wouldn't survive.
And those effects wouldn't exist without Nvidia paying for it? 
I'm still waiting for a PhysX title to get anywhere NEAR say, RF: Guerrilla. Things like the scarecrow things have been done numerous times in other games - entirely scripted, but there's NOTHING dynamic about the entire sequence, so why would it require PhysX? Hell, people have done similarly impressive shit with Hammer on Source and with the CrySDK. I strongly suggest you take your green glasses off for a minute and take a look at Batman (just the easiest example) with and without PhysX. It is staggering to see the difference and while some of it is just plain retarded (dem paper stacks), there's a lot of it that clearly was cut out because of the bribe (debris on the floor, sequences that could've been scripted). Parts that take away from the atmosphere a lot and were most definitely part of the art direction.
Particles I'll agree is a matter of preference, I guess it doesn't bother some people how unrealistic it is to blow concrete pillars up with a 9mm (Mafia 2 says hi).
Nvidia GPUs being better at some of it is fine, but half the goddamn visuals are often just missing without an Nvidia GPU, which is just bullshit.
| Quote: | | Alice: Madness Returns showed how hair physics can be done even on consoles(!!) efficiently (and that was programmed by a single guy), but nope AMD came up with a much much much heavier implementation that favors their cards (not artificially, purely because they are better on compute, but that's not the point). |
Well bravo, you just compared a proprietary, in-house developed hair simulation with an open, free to use implementation. What's next, comparing something the 4A Engine can do to the UDK? 
For the record, the hair in Alice does not use PhysX in any way, ever. Had the Alice hair been open then yes, CD should've used that. But as it stands, TressFX is a much quicker solution. And again, Nvidia may be slower at it but that's not because AMD crippled it. It's all open technology about which Nvidia just happens to not give a fuck until TR came out (their DC implementation was quite poor for Kepler) - and AMD+Nixxes optimised it further for Nvidia GPUs in patches as well. When Civ V came out the roles were reversed, AMD were the weaker ones on compute. Shit happens.
Edit: do have to say that the environmental particles (sparks) PhysX produces do look amazing. That's the one part I haven't seen done without it yet. |
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 21:31 Post subject: |
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I have faith in them in their GPU department, the make the best (FACT) graphic cards. So who knows really.
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| Posted: Thu, 6th Jun 2013 21:45 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | | I strongly suggest you take your green glasses off for a minute and take a look at Batman (just the easiest example) with and without PhysX. It is staggering to see the difference and while some of it is just plain retarded (dem paper stacks), there's a lot of it that clearly was cut out because of the bribe (debris on the floor, sequences that could've been scripted). Parts that take away from the atmosphere a lot and were most definitely part of the art direction. |
I suggest you take off your red tinted glasses (no glasses on me btw) and find a source for that. Because if you can't, Occam's razor says these effects never existed. Or else you also need to prove that floating hair wasn't part of TR's initial direction that AMD paid to remove and code it for DX11.
I say neither were part of the game before nvidia/AMD stepped in. If you believe one was and the other wasn't, you need to provide a source or it reads like fanboyism.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY |
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Jun 2013 09:43 Post subject: |
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I'm sure the extremely extensive animations (and that's all they are) during the Scarecrow sequences weren't part of it all, nor was the mostly static debris on the floor which is missing entirely with PhysX turned off. Or all the cloth in the maps being missing. Or all the paper stacks exploding from your little toe, as ridiculous as it looks, could've been animated statically as it's only the paper floating down that uses PhysX - more importantly, that's something the CPU already handles, why lock AMD out? Or Metro not having any bullet holes at all (which aren't meshes, just textures so again, no PhysX required - only the particles do). There's shit like that in tons of games and if you can't see that, I can't help you.
As for TR, the hair's still there right? It's not missing entirely as is often the case in games with PhysX.
Again, if things look or run BETTER on Nvidia when PhysX is used is one thing, but in many cases shit just isn't there *at all*. There's also lots of things that can not be executed in parallel very well, such as the paper stacks above (relatively few and big calculations) so they run on the CPU regardless. Then there are also things that Havok has proven can run much more efficiently on the CPU than PhysX does, at least before 3.0. To be fair 3.1 and 3.2 are actually quite good, but there are 5 titles which use 3.0+ right now, of which PlanetSide 2 is the only one worth mentioning. And they use it for particles, which is fine. They don't strip out bits of the game just because you don't run Nvidia. All that said, I still think it's a cancer that we need to get rid of, as Havok and Bullet are far superior and optimised for every platform. Fortunately, considering we already saw them in PS4 demos, hopefully they'll finally get used more.
Don't get me wrong, there are enough games that *do* get it right, only having PhysX enhance things. But there are far more where they *add* those things. If you look at explosions in Metro, that's fair enough. That's small particle crap which can be done in parallel very well.
And you can say whatever you want, but you do prefer Nvidia, your posts now and in the past make that abundantly clear. I have no aversion from Nvidia, just from PhysX. In most cases it does more harm than it does good. It just isn't a gamer's tech, because it locks you into one vendor, it's that simple. That has been my sentiment ever since I first ran it on my G80/G92's and that just has not changed. As for my own preferences, it's not like I've been an early GF1, GF2, 6800, 8800 (followed by 2 9800's) and 680 adopter, getting bit in the ass the last two times yet still on a 680 now, nor have I had twice as many Nvidia cards as ATI/AMD, clearly red glasses 
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Jun 2013 10:17 Post subject: |
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Again, you are saying "all these could be done more efficiently without PhysX" and I have agreed with you, but told you they WOULDN'T be done. Lara's hair could be done more efficiently too, look at Alice. If one guy came up with that, imagine what a team of people in AMD could come up with if thy wanted.
And "but Lara is not bald with no TressFX" is not the same at all Maybe CD always had in mind to make Lara's hair move a bit and AMD came up with ooooh you are going to make it static for everyone but those that run TressFX. Do I believe it? No. That's stupid. As stupid as saying the PhysX effects were originally going to be precanned animations etc and they were later cut from all other versions. Both equally stupid and I hope you realize it but "if you can't see that, I can't help you".
And I do not prefer nvidia, I prefer to buy what is best at the time that I want to buy something and this gen I bought only 2 GPUs and both were nvidia because they were the best for my budget (8800GT, 460GTX). I do dislike AMD only as a CPU company (what gamer doesn't?), but that didn't stop me from buying an AMD CPU because again it was the best choice I could make with my money at that time.
Brand loyalty is not a concept I believe in. I only care to buy the best possible for my money.
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Jun 2013 11:01 Post subject: |
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| consolitis wrote: | | And "but Lara is not bald with no TressFX" is not the same at all Maybe CD always had in mind to make Lara's hair move a bit and AMD came up with ooooh you are going to make it static for everyone but those that run TressFX. Do I believe it? No. That's stupid. As stupid as saying the PhysX effects were originally going to be precanned animations etc and they were later cut from all other versions. Both equally stupid and I hope you realize it but "if you can't see that, I can't help you". |
Except that Lara's hair isn't static. It's a bunch of premade animations.
And if you're so convinced, please do explain why every single banner, even the ones in areas where you can't even get in Batman, is missing with PhysX turned off. Please, offer any reasonable explanation as to why they'd add such a crucial design element only with PhysX enabled, instead of having a simple premade animation there or even a static banner. Or, again, the Scarecrow level. You find it hard to believe they wouldn't have done that if they could without PhysX, yet I find it hard to believe they'd go to such an extent just because they had PhysX. And again, most of that scene runs on the CPU and involves very little actual physics; that's why on a GPU like your 460 that scene still lagged like hell. I know that for a fact, because my first playthrough was on a 460; play the 1.0 version which shipped with a terrible PhysX version. Not sure if 1.1 already fixed it or if it was a later patch. Manually replacing a few DLLs also did the trick as usual. And because of that, I find it hard to believe Rocksteady went through all that trouble to create that scene like that only to have it not run well on 95% of all systems (Nvidia or otherwise). They paid so much attention to so many other things, yet that they wouldn't? No. |
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JBeckman
VIP Member
Posts: 34981
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Jun 2013 11:02 Post subject: |
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Fri, 7th Jun 2013 11:08 Post subject: |
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Particles I really have no problem with. Volume fog looking better is fine, as that is a very intensive task (although it can be handled by most modern CPUs). But shit that's not highly parallel, consisting of thousands of calculations being missing entirely is just plain retarded. Especially these huge damn chunks of cloth being missing is just
And again, Metro 2033 for example doesn't even have bullet hole decals without PhysX. Apparently even that is too much too do without PhysX 
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JBeckman
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Posts: 34981
Location: Sweden
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