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 Posted: Thu, 15th Nov 2012 10:29 Post subject: Amplifier |
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Can someone help me with a selection of amplifier?
I recently got these http://www.pioneer.eu/eur/products/42/99/161/CS-7070/specs.html , and I need something better to drive it.
But I have no clue what to look for in an amplifier. How many watts, ohms and whatever do I need to properly drive those speakers?
I'm a complete newb as far as this goes.
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Przepraszam
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Posts: 14497
Location: Poland. New York.
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| Posted: Thu, 15th Nov 2012 10:35 Post subject: |
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By amplfier, you mean receiver?
by looking at the link you provided, you only got speakers
well, how many did you get? did you get subwoofer also?
either get Demon or Yamaha receiver, to support it..only viable option when it comes to receivers
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| Posted: Thu, 15th Nov 2012 10:45 Post subject: |
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I don't think I need a receiver. I only plan on having those two speakers for the foreseeable future. Surround doesn't excite me as I don't have a proper place to lay out the speakers. I might get a subwoofer if I feel this isn't enough.
Right now I have a really crappy amplifier that is barely managing to drive the speakers. I'm looking to get something more powerful but I'm not sure in what range to look at. Watt/Ohm stuff is especially confusing me as I'm not sure how much is required to drive the speakers (and eventually maybe a subwoofer).
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DXWarlock
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Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu, 15th Nov 2012 11:13 Post subject: |
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Ohm is the speakers impedance. or resistance.
Only thing you really need to know is the lowest ohm the amplifier can handle.
Easy way to remember it is 1/2 the ohms double the wattage.
So a 100watt at full volume stereo made for 8 ohm speakers..will push 200watts into 4 ohm speakers. Which likely make it die if played at any volume that 'pushes' more than 100 watts into them. Or can even die at normal volume due to the speakers being 1/2 what its rated ohm load is. It all depends on how good the amp in it is..
I got an ooold onkyo made for 8 ohms recommend..thats been pushing dual coil 4 ohm kickers for years..and its still alive..but those same speakers killed a pioneer stereo in 3 hours that was also rated at 8 ohm recommended.
99.9% of home amps/recivers will run those..they are the standard 8 ohm.
Your only issue I see is you might want a sub later..its REALLY hard to find a good home stereo that isn't surround sound that does a dedicated sub for stereo (2 channel) sound. Or a good one that has a sub out, that they dont 'cheap out' on the 2 channels..expecting people to hook a sub to it..so the 2 channels without a sub sound like crap.
IF you are just wanting good wattage, and sound from them..my personal recommendation is find an old late 80's early 90's quality stereo..they produce much better 'omph' than todays 2 channel ones. since the majority of people go for surround sound. 2 channel output is the lost art now a days so to speak.
Or find a good late model pure and simple 'amp'. Made for monitor speakers. (monitor as is studio monitors, not computer monitors  )
If your not below it, and have craigslist where you are check it
I picked up another 2 channel (4 channel with a/b speakers) onkyo receiver/amp off my local one for $50 US..its was a late 80's black style one..rated at 500 watts per channel and weights a ton for the huge transformer and heatsinks inside it, and pushed even my 2 big 15" kicker car woofers so hard they rattle the box when I tested them on it. was a hell of a deal for $50. And it sounds amazing on good speakers.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu, 15th Nov 2012 12:05 Post subject: |
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Awesome response thanks! I've been thinking a bit about getting 5.1 receiver after all, just in case I decide to hook up more speakers to it in the future (few years time), but from your post I gather those won't output quality stereo sound?
Reason why I'm considering is because I can only find stereo amps with 100W or so (for my price range), but for the same price I can find AV receiver with 5.1 channel and 100W on each channel.
Also, if the amp is 4 ohm and 100W, will that mean it will only push 50W into 8ohm speakers?
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu, 15th Nov 2012 12:16 Post subject: |
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| BearishSun wrote: | Awesome response thanks! I've been thinking a bit about getting 5.1 receiver after all, just in case I decide to hook up more speakers to it in the future (few years time), but from your post I gather those won't output quality stereo sound?
Reason why I'm considering is because I can only find stereo amps with 100W or so (for my price range), but for the same price I can find AV receiver with 5.1 channel and 100W on each channel.
Also, if the amp is 4 ohm and 100W, will that mean it will only push 50W into 8ohm speakers? |
They aren't 'bad' for stereo sound..just you never get good bass out of the other speakers, you need a sub. Even in 'stereo only' mode...most will cut the bass to the left/right expecting a sub to be hooked up.
Thats how my computer is hooked up. To our old pioneer surround system I took when we got a new one, to use in here for my pc.
I set it to 'stereo' mode(since i have no where to hang surround speakers near my pc). its TECHNICALLY 2.1 mode. I unhook the sub it sounds like a high quality alarm clock radio, bass is nearly none existant..lol
Why unless its my tv surround sound. all my stereos in the house are the old trusty '2 channel' types.
Like the one I was talking about, I got it in the basement in my workshop. its an old, black, boxy looking onkyo that only does 2 channel (or 4 channel just A and B speakers of stereo). but its hooked to 2 huge house speakers I replaced the woofers in them with 15" kickers when my wife decided that we didnt 'need' 2 15" subs in our car anymore 
..it vibrates the house so hard that my wife complains its rattling the dishes upstairs when I turn it up..lol
Even my harman kardon in the living room for 5.1 with a sub wont do that.
And the specs of the stereo SHOULD tell you what that 100w rating is based off of for ohms(if it doesn't list it even in the manual..dont trust it its probably a 'fluffed' wattage). But you are correct, if its 100w into 4ohms as its 'rating'..it will only push 50w into 8ohm speakers.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Thu, 15th Nov 2012 16:07 Post subject: |
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Well depends on the AVR Minder.
Most low/mid range ones that are made for 5.1 dont have an option to bypass the crossover. Like this pioneer one I got on my PC. its a mid price off the shelf one. If you look inside it, you can see the caps and mosfets for the sub channel are much larger and beefer than the other channels (its much easier to push 100w of mids and highs, than low end bass).
And I cant disable to the crossover to the 2 fronts, lowest I can set it is 60 hertz, which isnt good at all without the sub since anything for deep bass still is filtered out.
The caps and such to them aren't made to pump out decent bass to those channels like the sub one is.
The the tradeoff of "lower priced, but designed in such a way" situation where to make it cheaper to buy, they only beef up the sub capacitors knowing most people will use the sub for bass out of the box.
And with his price range I don't think any he will get will be made to supply low end/high wattage to the fronts if its got a sub out.
So just didnt want him getting in a situation of getting one, and then not able to do full range on fronts.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Thu, 15th Nov 2012 16:32 Post subject: |
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| MinderMast wrote: |
Logic would dictate (in theory) that a system focused entirely on providing best stereo audio and nothing else is superior to one that tries to do much more than that in a apparently similar package and in a comparable price range 
Whether or not it's something many of us would notice in practice is an entire matter though... |
Also got to remember quality of parts in 2 similar priced options for both.
A 2 channel system for $300 only has to have parts for 2 channels. caps, mosfets, filters..etc. Compared to a $300 5.1 that has 6 channels..so 3x the parts to put in it for the same price so lower qualit. Or many will 'share' parts across channels to save on cost..like both fronts share a capacitor for wattage buffer, the rears share the same caps as each other etc or they will just have a 'universal' row of caps all channels but the sub use, since they never get a big 'bass dump' of wattage out of them.
so the parts for each channel aren't as 'beefy' as the 2 channel amp.
Not saying 5.1's cant be a beefy as a 2 channel..but they get exponentially more expensive to match.
Then to use it as a 2 speaker setup..you are pretty much using, for $300, what a $50 2 channel worth of parts will do also. (since 4 of the 6 channels aren't being used).
This is why most 2 channel AVR of similar wattage are roughly the same price, but 5.1 systems that list the same wattage can be WAY different in price.
Like a cheap pioneer can be $200 and listed as 200w a channel. while a Harmon Kardon at 200w a channel is like $800. they build theirs like 2 channel amps. Each channel is treated as if it was a stand alone amp-line and independent. while Pioneer 'chains' a lot of its stuff together on thier lower end line to cut costs knowing "it can output 200w to center/front/rear but its all highs and mids..we can share the load between their parts.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Thu, 15th Nov 2012 16:40 Post subject: |
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| DXWarlock wrote: | Well depends on the AVR Minder.
Most low/mid range ones that are made for 5.1 dont have an option to bypass the crossover. Like this pioneer one I got on my PC. its a mid price off the shelf one. If you look inside it, you can see the caps and mosfets for the sub channel are much larger and beefer than the other channels (its much easier to push 100w of mids and highs, than low end bass).
And I cant disable to the crossover to the 2 fronts, lowest I can set it is 60 hertz, which isnt good at all without the sub since anything for deep bass still is filtered out.
The caps and such to them aren't made to pump out decent bass to those channels like the sub one is.
The the tradeoff of "lower priced, but designed in such a way" situation where to make it cheaper to buy, they only beef up the sub capacitors knowing most people will use the sub for bass out of the box.
And with his price range I don't think any he will get will be made to supply low end/high wattage to the fronts if its got a sub out.
So just didnt want him getting in a situation of getting one, and then not able to do full range on fronts. |
It's a fair point on limitations, but are you actually restricted by the crossover at all?
Mine goes down to 40Hz (and it's a lower(ish)-end model), but you also have the ability to disable bass management completely, so that it will send everything it has to the speaker, which should allow it to handle all frequencies.
You did mention that low/mid range ones don't allow it, but even the lowest end Denon AVR available at the time of my purchase allowed that. I don't know if it can actually physically handle it, but the tech sheet suggests it can.
I don't really have much of a "hands-on" experience with various models though, so perhaps they can be limited as you say, but most people seemed to be unaware of any complications with full-range speakers when I was looking into this
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu, 15th Nov 2012 16:44 Post subject: |
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Well denon, harmon, onkyo, marantz, klipsch and such really aren't 'low end' even their cheap ones aren't on the 'cheap' end for quality
Pioneer, alpine, keenwood, jvc and such are usualy lower end than those. They push on the idea that people take it home, unbox it, hook the wires up to the speakers that came with it and it sounds good.
Why I upgraded our pioneer when I could..it sounded good. but limited on options if I wanted to do anything with it other than push the speakers it came with. The Harmon with some klipsch speakers now sounds like we are AT a theater. no matter how I decide to setup the output.
EDIT:
And im just assuming since he picked up 2 speakers, hes not looking to budget in a denon/marantz AVR price range to push them. so basing the feedback on that.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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DXWarlock
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Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu, 15th Nov 2012 17:22 Post subject: |
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I have klipsch speakers, but I don't have THOSE klipsch..they are about $10,000 over my budget..lol
But Glad you found one you liked
And Im not an audiophile by the definition of Im uber picky about sound quality, if it sound really good to me, Im not going to nitpick "the highs are a tad tinny, and the lows bottom out a hair"..like some that claim to tell the difference in sound between a 2" piezo tweeter, and a 2 1/2" ferrofliud tweeter from 20 feet away. haha
Im more just a audio packrat. Always been big into sound/stereos/speakers.
Like women and shoes, I will buy, keep, and never use lots of stereo and speakers if I find a good deal..no idea why.
Like I got like 10 pairs of subwoofers for cars in my basement, from 8" to 15"..some are from back in my younger days of the early 90's seeing how many I could cram in my car to try to shake it apart, and some I never touched past testing them when I got them.
I got about 5 pairs of the old, huge, box home speakers down there too. Cant get the will to sell or give them away..I keep thinking "But they are decent SPEAKERS..I cant get rid of my speakers".
I will even tear apart PC speaker systems that people bring me because they died..to get the speakers out of them to toss in a storage box if they are a decent brand.
I think if I had a big enough amp, with enough outputs,and if I hooked up everything I had and turned it up...I could deafen my neighbors for a 2 block radius. LOL
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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8 ohm, 190w max per channel ( you can check what the rms is on those which gives "real" picture what they need). Get some cheap modern receiver with subwoofer out and later buy active subwoofer which has own amp.
