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ChinUp
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 14:55 Post subject: Punishment versus Healing |
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Personally I feel that punishing the violent criminal only supports the mentality that violent criminals provide as a justification for their cruel deeds. They deserved what they got, ect ..
Until governments can find ways to deal with violent crime that are different from the ways that violent criminals deal with their problems, all we have is a viscous cycle of violence & cruelty. IMO
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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kosmiq
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 15:15 Post subject: |
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I think that putting people away for the rest of their lives is wrong... Sure they may not be saints or good people, but they should atleast get the change to be helped.
Like this: first time they get helped if they redo the crime after getting out then you can do what ever you feel like.
My 2 cents...
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SycoShaman
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 15:23 Post subject: |
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kosmiq wrote: | I think that putting people away for the rest of their lives is wrong... Sure they may not be saints or good people, but they should atleast get the change to be helped.
Like this: first time they get helped if they redo the crime after getting out then you can do what ever you feel like.
My 2 cents... |
But if they "redo" the crime, another person or ppl may die, more kids get raped, more women (or even guys) get raped etc etc
U do the crime, be prepared to spend the time right?
I mean, the vicitms dont get a second chance do they? And rape fucks up ppl for their entire lives, I dont care how much therapy they get or whatever. They really never get over it which is understandable
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ChinUp
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 15:38 Post subject: |
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hehe... show me a cured child molester... really... i yet have to see one.... especially the ones that rape their own childs... you think you can cure that? the personality is build up in the first 20 years... after that the changes become rare...
i can speak for myself as im a smoker... i dont see any help for me to stop smokin... there isnt a 100% sure way to make a person a non-smoker... now you tell me you can cure someone who would plan and rape their own child and dont even regret it when you ask them??? do you plan to have kids in a world where ppl like that get a second chance......... to do it again?
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SycoShaman
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 15:42 Post subject: |
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I agree that they shouldnt be in a violent environment and such
but those who get life in prison, usually do something really bad to warrant it...like take Jeff Dahmer, do u think he should have been put into an asylum and "treated"? fuck no, some ppl just cant be helped...trying to convince a serial rapist, murderer etc that what they're doing is wrong and all that is a waste of time
Either they simply dont give a shit about other's lives, or they are too fucked to know what they are doing...either which way, being released back into the general public is not an option and usually treatment doesnt work.
And I dont think prisoner's on that level should be treated "fairly".
Take Paul Bernardo - an infamous canadian killer - him and his wife raped, mutilated the chopped up the bodies of 2 young teen girls and his wife's sister (on christmas eve to top it off) and they videotaped eveything...this guy has a fuckin tv, radio, books and I think even a computer in his cell now...wtf is that? He should only have a bed and toliet, thats it. And he should be beatin everyday for 15 minutes for the rest of his life...that still wouldnt amont to HALF the pain he's caused those girls and their families...like Ive said, murder and rape fuckin disgust me...murder, atleast sometimes can be justified...but rape? NEVER, there is no sane argument when it comes to someone being raped. None.
I dont think takin the parental attitue of "go sit in ur room for 5 minutes and think about what u did" helps serious criminals - thieves, drug dealers, gang members etc...those ARE ppl who can be helped i think...but murderer's and rapists...nope, throw away the key or, what i think should be done, give em all the death penalty...the next time someone thinks of killing their spouse, friend, co-worker or whatever, they will think twice and may not do it.

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ollax
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 16:04 Post subject: |
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Kill'em all and let god sort them out!
Of all the things i've lost, i miss my mind the most!
"Ozzy Osbourne"
_ _ _ _ _

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Mutantius
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 16:57 Post subject: |
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I dunno psychopaths and mentally Ill killers should be treated, while the mentally well criminals should be punished though not by dead... let them rot in a cell for 40 years... Thats punishment.
"Why don't you zip it, Zipfero?" - fraich3
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ChinUp
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 20:42 Post subject: |
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So you like the idea of the supposedly mature legal system subjecting people to the sort of suffering that violent criminals divvy up ?
Violent criminals especially serial killers/rapist child sex cases need to be taken out of society & out of circulation .. Taken away from violent mentalities & treated like lab rats that must be studied & treated like the cancer of society they are.
Once a violent criminal is made to face what they are like & cant hide from themselves among other head cases, they really begin to feel the pinch of what they have done .. When they are begging to die, the healing is beginning to take affect .. letting them hide with other people who think like them in prison or killing them off is just stupid, lazy, & ignorant . IMo
I would imagine most violent criminals would rather go to prison & see their mates .. & would be shitting themselves if they knew they were off to the house of head shrinkers who were going to make them relive everything they have ever done over & over until they see the error of their ways.
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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SycoShaman
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 21:01 Post subject: |
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ollax wrote: | Kill'em all and let god sort them out! |
lol thats from a Manson song
"..lets just kill everyone andlet ur god sort them out..FUCK IT!!"
lol great song, irresponsible hate anthem is the song
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ChinUp
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 21:30 Post subject: |
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SycoShaman wrote: | ollax wrote: | Kill'em all and let god sort them out! |
lol thats from a Manson song
"..lets just kill everyone andlet ur god sort them out..FUCK IT!!"
lol great song, irresponsible hate anthem is the song | right so its cool to be a violent psychopath .. ya right I forgot how cool you are if you go to prison for exacting your private justice. Wouldn’t be considered so cool if you were heading for a padded cell where you will puke your guts up & cry your heart out until your crying for your mommy & begging for death.
Making cruelty & violence out to be cool just makes things worse cant you see that .. ???
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
Last edited by ChinUp on Thu, 4th Aug 2005 21:33; edited 1 time in total
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SycoShaman
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 21:33 Post subject: |
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Its a fuckin song man...christ....
And I wasnt saying do what manson says...damn, u take things WAY outta context eh...ollax's comment reminded me of the song, thats it
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ChinUp
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 21:35 Post subject: |
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SycoShaman wrote: | Its a fuckin song man...christ....
And I wasnt saying do what manson says...damn, u take things WAY outta context eh...ollax's comment reminded me of the song, thats it | you help me make an important point about how society subconsciously condones violent crime .. is all .. I’m not blasting you I’m having a go @ the bullshit society hands us .. the whole sane enough to sit in the electric chair nonsense ..
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 22:19 Post subject: |
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well since you talk about society think about who made the ppl who kill, rape etc what they are... and i guess manson would be one of em if he wasnt strong as he is to convert the shit into music... society sux... in every country... its all about power and $ and then ppl complain when ppl get killed... oh well... its useless to even argue about it...
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SycoShaman
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 22:37 Post subject: |
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ChinUp wrote: | SycoShaman wrote: | Its a fuckin song man...christ....
And I wasnt saying do what manson says...damn, u take things WAY outta context eh...ollax's comment reminded me of the song, thats it | you help me make an important point about how society subconsciously condones violent crime .. is all .. I’m not blasting you I’m having a go @ the bullshit society hands us .. the whole sane enough to sit in the electric chair nonsense .. |
Gotcha, i thought u were attackin me
My apologies man 
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SycoShaman
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 22:49 Post subject: |
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MaroW wrote: | well since you talk about society think about who made the ppl who kill, rape etc what they are... and i guess manson would be one of em if he wasnt strong as he is to convert the shit into music... society sux... in every country... its all about power and $ and then ppl complain when ppl get killed... oh well... its useless to even argue about it... |
No u didnt did u? U actually said Manson, as in Marilyn Manson, not Charles Manson, helps fuel hate, rape and all that shit?
Im actually putting out my cigarette to answer this..
First off, if u listen to what he says closely, he takes a satryical view on society - like the line "Kill Your God, Kill Your TV"....he isnt saying actually kill ur god or become a satanist as so many retarded literalist's think. Rather he is saying we all by into the shit that we see on tv and that we follow it blindly - like one would a God...so rebel and don't believe in the capitalist pigs....and suicide, he does talk about suicide, but not in the sense the media portrays it. Rather, he takes a look at how the world makes everyone feel like if they aren't "with it" or arent part of the "norm" that they should disappear, and this is what society does to those who think "outside of the box". Cast's them aside. In other words, he's saying kill the literal, conformist views u have and believe what u want to - whether ur right or wrong, just believe in ur own thoughts as its OK to be different.
Simply put, if u cannot understand the message manson conveys, behind all the makeup and fucked-upness, u prolly dont understand half the views of this board so u might as well leave. The majority of the ppl here are non-comformist, in my view.
MaroW, i wasnt attacking u directly above, it was more generally speaking.
And if I misread what u wrote, I apologize for real.
But if I didnt and I understood clearly, man, u need to take ur blindfold off for real.
And if u choose to answer this and u do think manson fuels hate and all that, its cool, but dont even use the whole columbine thing....those kids were fucked and would have shot up the school no matter what.
They also blamed that shit on Doom - so i guess everyone on this forum is a potential crackpot like those kids.
If a child cannot handle the type of media they are listening to or viewing, its the parents job to remove all those media from the household...and obviously, those kids needed big pink bunnies and white rubber rooms....

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fisk
Posts: 9145
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 22:55 Post subject: |
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Manson is an atheist, this "let god sort it out" is just the way some people figure it is.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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SycoShaman
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 22:58 Post subject: |
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fisk wrote: | Manson is an atheist, this "let god sort it out" is just the way some people figure it is. |
yep
well, from what ive read and seen, he believes in God, but not religion.
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SycoShaman
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Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 23:02 Post subject: |
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MaroW wrote: | hehe... i knew what you were typing the second i read your first sentence... and i gotta say your full of shit! oh wait no... what i wanted to say was... your right... and i didnt say any different... i just mightve wrote it the wrong way... but then again... im just german...
i said manson would be a killer too probably if he wasnt strong and did convert his feelings into music instead of violence against ppl...
and i said society is makin ppl killers, rapists etc... so im totally agreeing with you... and probably with manson too though i dont listen to his music much cause i dont really like the style...
and i never felt attacked by you its all good...
and now im gonna light a cigarette  |
Oh ok, my bad man, my apologies for real I took it the wrong way...beauty of the internet right? 
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 23:17 Post subject: |
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SycoShaman wrote: | fisk wrote: | Manson is an atheist, this "let god sort it out" is just the way some people figure it is. |
yep
well, from what ive read and seen, he believes in God, but not religion. |
So that's why his latest tour was named "Against All Gods tour"?
No man, he's an atheist.
Meaning, he's a nihilist concerning the existence of gods.
Quote: | The people who want to crucify me for my so-called violent views should sit down and read the bible. They should examine the virtues of wonderful "Christian" stories of disease, murder, adultery, suicide and child sacrifice. In comparison to the stories in the Old Testament, I'm surprised that they don't find my songs far too tame and boring for their liking. |
Also check this out:
http://www.esoterra.org/manson.htm
Where he expresses his liking for Anton Szandor LaVey (author of the book that started modern popular satanism).
"Well, you're making a presumption there, in that this whole thing is just an act. This is truly me, this is who I am. I have found a way to cut through, to clarify the human spirit, to see past the man-made foolishness of "religion" and "spirituality" and have refined myself until I have become something yet unseen in this world: an absolute evil being. My heart pumps a cold blackness that engulfs my non-soul, alllowing me to become a true Antichrist Superstar. " /Manson
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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MAD_MAX333
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Posts: 7020
Location: Toronto, Canada...eh
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 23:25 Post subject: |
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Well I am for healing the people… and after having them serve in the community for some time…
HOWEVER as of now, we have no cure for many of our society’s problems, until we do find a cure, they need to be locked away…
If it is determined that there is no cure to be found… I want all serious criminals killed…
Although this would leave A LOT of cops and innocent people also dead since the criminals would not give up easy or without a fight anymore..
Striking a balance is almost impossible.
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 23:33 Post subject: |
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well... if he is "against all gods" and he reads satanic stuff.. he does belive in god... cause you cant be against somtn that doesnt exist... and where theres good... theres evil...
who cares anyway? if theres a god... or a devil... well find out when we die... if there isnt... we probably wont even know... all in all its just stupid to think about it til were there... you could also think were just a test in a lab and being watched by scientists that study our behaviour... and believe me... if thats the case... they will be shocked and will do anything to prevent us from being released in any way...
just make your life worth living without makin someone elses life less worth living and all is good...
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 23:37 Post subject: |
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MaroW wrote: | well... if he is "against all gods" and he reads satanic stuff.. he does belive in god... cause you cant be against somtn that doesnt exist... and where theres good... theres evil...
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Wrong.
Satan, means "to oppose"/"opposer".
You're making a cardinal error, thinking satanism exclusively is the worship of the devil.
---
If you want to educate yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism
(or remain ignorant)
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Posted: Thu, 4th Aug 2005 23:50 Post subject: |
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ChinUp
Posts: 5503
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Posted: Fri, 5th Aug 2005 00:38 Post subject: |
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MAD_MAX333 wrote: | Well I am for healing the people… and after having them serve in the community for some time…
HOWEVER as of now, we have no cure for many of our society’s problems, until we do find a cure, they need to be locked away…
If it is determined that there is no cure to be found… I want all serious criminals killed…
Although this would leave A LOT of cops and innocent people also dead since the criminals would not give up easy or without a fight anymore..
Striking a balance is almost impossible. | ok a cure is way way off IMo
the issue is government perspective & policy in regards to violent crime.
Bullying the bully only shows the people that bullying is ok .. see deep down society & its leaders are responsible for violent crime taking place .. so a responsible, mature, humane FFS method must be applied.
until the people can respect the leaders as proponents of decent behavior, decent behavior cannot be fostered in the household.
Your kid has violence issues .. do you hit them & lock them up with other violent kids .. hell no you take that kid to see a professional & you take time to teach them how to deal with problems in a healthy way ..
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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MAD_MAX333
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Location: Toronto, Canada...eh
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Posted: Fri, 5th Aug 2005 00:48 Post subject: |
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i understand where you are coming from.. but i think in todays world and today's media... your cause is lost... i'm out there everyday i see the LOWEST form of life you can think of.... things you won't even think a human being would think of doing... when i see these things, i wonder if there is ANY hope for them... they would just abusethe help we provide them to get back out do start causing problems again...
others like dealers and gangsters get used to a certain lifestyle and you can't take them out, give them a 40000 dollar a year job and expect them to say with it... it just doesn't work like that...
i am torn from agreeing with you totally, or going back to my own hardline views.
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Posted: Fri, 5th Aug 2005 00:49 Post subject: |
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if your kid has violent issues youve done somtn wrong way before... and YOU wont be able to do shit for the kid... and comparing the amount of forming a kid with the on of an adult is pretty supid... its deep in them... noone is gonna cure them... so the problem is dealing with them... thats what we should concentrate on...
healing = impossible... and that leads to not being able to put them back in society
and im gonna ask you again... would you let a child molester who is said to be cured live 1 house away from you and let your kids play alone outside?
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ChinUp
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Posted: Fri, 5th Aug 2005 01:25 Post subject: |
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MaroW wrote: | if your kid has violent issues you’ve done something wrong way before... and YOU wont be able to do shit for the kid... and comparing the amount of forming a kid with the on of an adult is pretty stupid... its deep in them... no one is going to cure them... so the problem is dealing with them... that’s what we should concentrate on... | If my kid comes home from school busted up telling me about the fight he had to win .. I am responsible because I didn’t go & sort out the headmaster earlier yes .
& comparing adults to children is painfully accurate .. many adults are anything but adult in their decision making processes. Big bad kids that need care .. a serious taking care of.
MaroW wrote: | healing = impossible... and that leads to not being able to put them back in society | your faithless presumptions about human nature are merely a demonstration of your contempt & disregard for those of us who want to grow the fuck up & stop using eye for an eyes stupidity to govern our people.
MaroW wrote: | and I’m going to ask you again... would you let a child molester who is said to be cured live 1 house away from you and let your kids play alone outside? | sorry but I’m quite sure I said a cure is WAY off .. a child molester need some serious help decades of help .. a person who has lost sight of the preservation of innocents & decency is a difficult case to rectify .. never will that person be cured only disarmed & trained to puke @ the thought of a little girls/boys sexuality. I don’t think you have thought about the potential solutions that the mental health professionals have to offer .
MAD_MAX333 wrote: | i understand where you are coming from.. but i think in today’s world and today's media... your cause is lost... I’m out there everyday i see the LOWEST form of life you can think of.... things you won't even think a human being would think of doing... when I see these things, I wonder if there is ANY hope for them... they would just abuse the help we provide them to get back out do start causing problems again... | I am speaking of facilities that replace prisons that separate violent criminals & give each inmate personal treatment. The criminal would be interviewed about their behavior extensively, encouraged to admit to every indiscretion. Made to face their sickness in short .. prison is to easy to fashionable & potentially educational to violent criminals. Taking a violent criminal to a place where they will be exposed for the miserable excuse for a human they are. Treated like the cancer of society they are & made to face their problems, in a very real way. There isn’t any coolness is crying yourself to sleep & puking @ the thought of the pain you caused. They would rather be dead I’m sure within the first month.
MAD_MAX333 wrote: | others like dealers and gangsters get used to a certain lifestyle and you can't take them out, give them a 40000 dollar a year job and expect them to say with it... it just doesn't work like that... . | this is why the mentality must be addressed.. behavioral problems are a mental health issue imo ..
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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Posted: Fri, 5th Aug 2005 01:38 Post subject: |
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i dont think you get the point... an adults mind doesnt work like a childs mind... a childs mind is pure... an adults mind is spoilt by his surroundings... try to learn a new language at the age of 50... it will take like 3 or more times the time it would take a kid to learn it...
you have to be the one to grow up... and see the world is no fancy place where everybody can be happy... therell always be bad ppl no matter how good of a surrounding you have...
and last but not least.... mental health professionals that take care of criminals for decades? ok... if you pay it... cause if you take money for that... theres even less money for education and for institutions that maybe can prevent ppl from even becoming criminals... listen to yourself... i dont know any country that has enough money to even give every child a proper education...
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