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DXWarlock
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 Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 22:57 Post subject: Free will an illusion, based on future hasn't happened? |
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Me and a friend was having a discussion that brought up an interesting idea.
I'm sure someone somewhere has had it, but it just dawned on us.
We was discussing laws of physics, and the defined law that all matter retains its information, therefor with enough information, and mathematics..you could trace every particles path of existence, where its been since the big bang, and where it will be (based on you know ALL particles current state, and history, predict where they will be later, and in course which others they will interact with, and what information will be exchanged..action/reaction prediction on a chain reaction scale.)
For example, theoretically with enough computer power. you could take the entire storage tank at the local sewer plant. and based on its information each particle has, and its current placement, speed, and direction, trace them back to the toilet/sink/tub/grate they came from..and even farther back to what that person ate..and where that thing they ate came from...etc etc all the way back to when that particle came to be at the big bang. Basically rewinding the timeline as far back as you wish. For all practical purposes, in thought refilling your sink with the exact water and suds as it was 2 minutes before you drained it.
And inversely. You can, with all the data of every particle in the universe...calculate where, when and how each particle in your sink will end up as 100 years from now before you pull the drain plug.
If your still will me after all that..this was our thought.
Human brains are nothing but matter, like everything else. using interacting particles to create what we know as 'being' something.
But in the end, its just chemical reactions, and particles interacting to cause it.
Now if the above statements is true. is freewill, and 'making decisions' only an illusion of doing so, as we don't 'know' what we will do until each instance we do it, giving the impression it was a 'decision we made'? its just us lacking the power, math speed, and scale needed to show this on a universal scale in real time?
I'm meaning to say, by the above..every chemical reaction, and every particle in our brain can be traced backwards in time, and forwards in time based on information and data of each particle..then 'thinking' wouldn't be thinking..its just progress along the same timeline as every other particle. we are just experiencing it as "making a decision'. The interactions are already predictable.
For example deciding to reply to this thread or not...takes a chemical reaction somewhere in your brain to fire neurons, that reaction takes another, and that one takes another...but they all had to 'start' somewhere. and if all information AND data of them can be traced backwards. then was it a 'decision' to start with? or just a SUPER complex timeline of predictable events that started at the big bang (IE my predictable events, causing me to type it, the predictable events of electromagnetics that sent it to the net..the predictable events that cause it to show on your screen, and electrons hitting your eye being transferred to impulses that lead to your nervous system...etc).
And yes, there is the situation of "entropy randomness" of sorts. but its only random to us as SO FAR we don't possess the power or scale of calculation to be able to trace every particles information yet. but entropy isn't the 'unpredictability' of such..its just the amount of 'order or disorder' of said particles. As even the effects Brownian motion can be calculated.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:03 Post subject: |
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there is no true free will and nothing is random, everything is a product of causality.
it is all about our inability to calculate what will come to pass in great detail, that we believe in free will.
once someone said that "the creation of beethoven´s 5th symphony was already predetermined during the big bang", which is exactly the philosophy you speak of and i believe in myself.
but in the end, thinking too much about it is only contraproductive, even though you cannot really choose whether you are gonna think about it or not, since you dont really have the free will to do so; so lets just hope you wont waste your time pondering it.
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DXWarlock
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:11 Post subject: |
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| The_Zeel wrote: |
but in the end, thinking too much about it is only contraproductive, even though you cannot really choose whether you are gonna think about it or not, since you dont really have the free will to do so; so lets just hope you wont waste your time pondering it. |
LOL I already thought about that earlier in the day...about why I was thinking about it, and if I should..and if I decide I shouldn't..its not me deciding if I should..I just 'caught up' to the part where its decided I don't. And my brain gives me the illusion when catching up to that part in time, that it was my idea.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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WaldoJ
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:15 Post subject: |
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lolwut... science proves that fate is real? 
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:18 Post subject: |
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Fate isn't the right word, as that implies reason and purpose to the events.
This is nothing more than a infinitely complex series of random events. That some parts of on a personal level, effect us. (well on every level..but on a mental level of understanding we find patterns in it that we understand as 'life')
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Sin317
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:21 Post subject: |
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you forget one little thing, DXWarlock, Chaos (the theory of).
| Quote: | Chaos theory is a field of study in mathematics, with applications in several disciplines including physics, engineering, economics, biology, and philosophy. Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions, an effect which is popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general. This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:26 Post subject: |
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| Sin317 wrote: | you forget one little thing, DXWarlock, Chaos (the theory of).
| Quote: | Chaos theory is a field of study in mathematics, with applications in several disciplines including physics, engineering, economics, biology, and philosophy. Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions, an effect which is popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general. This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.
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But you are speaking of our failure to be able to calculate it, not the fact that it does it despite that.
such as the 'those due to rounding errors in numerical computation' isn't a error nature does making it, its a error humans do trying to predict it.
Such as the wave/particle contradiction of light..its a 'wave' of probability until measured. then its definitive particle collapse from that wave. and if the entire universe is nothing but waves of probability collapsing to a point when its information is gathered..that information is then absolute. the wave itself has no effect on the universe and its information it contains until then is no longer a 'multitude of probabilities" but is now a 'point of certainty"
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:28; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:27 Post subject: |
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| Sin317 wrote: | you forget one little thing, DXWarlock, Chaos (the theory of).
| Quote: | Chaos theory is a field of study in mathematics, with applications in several disciplines including physics, engineering, economics, biology, and philosophy. Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions, an effect which is popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for chaotic systems, rendering long-term prediction impossible in general. This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.
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but thats what we were talking about, it is still predetermined, whether it is possible for us to predict it or not.
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Sin317
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:34 Post subject: |
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No not speaking of that. even if its initial state is variable..once its in its 'initial infecting state' its now set in universal 'informational' history as being there..predicting where it will be, and where its ends up being is 2 different things.
As even stating out as a variable state, it can only end with one outcome, and the reactions from its absolute, even if initiating another 'variable' will make that one in a state of 'absolute' data.
For example like here "A consequence of sensitivity to initial conditions is that if we start with only a finite amount of information about the system (as is usually the case in practice), then beyond a certain time the system will no longer be predictable. This is most familiar in the case of weather, which is generally predictable only about a week ahead"
Which is true, because we can never have 'total' collective data, we don't possess the knowledge or power to do so. given infinite amount of information, you could predict it out to an infinite amount of time.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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couleur
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Sin317
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:39 Post subject: |
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| tainted4ever wrote: | there are some things in thermodynamics and quantum physics which are decidedly non-deterministic. I'm trying to google the links now, but I imagine dingo_d would know more than me  |
But couldn't it be that its only non-deterministic, in the same sense as telling which particles in the sewer tank are from your sink, non-deterministicly, by lack of us knowing how?
In other words, the universe does what it does, predictably, just we aren't far enough along to understand that its not a matter of thermodynamics breaks its own laws, just we got some blank spots in our laws that make it appear that way?
Much like schrodinger's cat, and the wave/particle dilemma..its not that its not following a law, its just the laws make no sense to us..because the 'math' works, just the law we are defining with it is slightly off, and we are trying to figure out why.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:41; edited 1 time in total
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WaldoJ
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:39 Post subject: |
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well if we had computers before life... they could have computed the possibility of it.
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
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Sin317
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:41 Post subject: |
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well, possibility != predeterminated.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:44 Post subject: |
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| fable2 wrote: |
yeah but was is inevitable? since it already happened. |
Kinda what Im getting at..its a loose sense of the buttery fly effect.but in reserve I suppose.
All it would have taken, is one particle, slightly off during the big bang if it was the 'right' particle, one crucial for the formation of life..and life wouldn't have happened.
So the big bang set the course for the rest of the universes lifespan..we are just waiting for all the pool table balls to stop bouncing around and hitting each other, for the universe to end.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:46 Post subject: |
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As Einstein said "god (the universe) doesn't play dice"
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Sin317
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:47 Post subject: |
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well, btt then.
Free will is not an illusion.
There is no Law (physics, etc) that determinates what i am going to do. I may be confined to these laws, but they dont dictate my behavior (inside those laws).
Nobody and nothing can tell, if my next step is going to be one forward or backwards. Or if i am standing still. Thats 3 possibilities right there. And thats just step 1. Multiply this by infinity (or until my death anyway) and there are an infinite (infinite as in uncountable) possibilites how and what i'll do in my life.
Last edited by Sin317 on Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:48; edited 1 time in total
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:48 Post subject: |
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AHH found it..
Determinism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Sin317
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:50 Post subject: |
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well, thats a belief and not actual fact. Its like nihilismus etc.
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DXWarlock
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| Posted: Thu, 4th Oct 2012 23:53 Post subject: |
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| Sin317 wrote: | well, btt then.
Free will is not an illusion.
There is now Law (physics, etc) that determinates what i am going to do. I may be confined to these laws, but they dont dictate my behavior (inside those laws).
Nobody and nothing can tell, if my next step is going to be one forward or backwards. Or if i am standing still. Thats 3 possibilities right there. And thats just step 1. Multiply this by infinity (or until my death anyway) and there are an infinite (infinite as in uncountable) possibilites how and what i'll do in my life. |
True no one can tell if your next step will be forward or backwards..it doesn't mean that the particles in the brain, in the order that are arranged, and the interactions that they do based on that, doesn't already predict that.
the order may be 'the next reaction gives the trigger to split down 2 pathways or 'decisions' but chemical reactions don't have 2 outcomes, as only one is the end result..it may be MILLIONS of them that get to the end result of a forward step, most of them giving the triggers to others that give you the 'thoughts' that you are going to decide this..but the reactions will do as they do, without breaking any laws of physics..to get to the end result of what they started when they caused the chain.
I think your mixing possibilities, with outcome.
You drop a marble down a complex 3 way slide maze..there is '3' possibilities of where it can go when you drop it..but using enough math..the instant you let it go..it can be said with 100% certainty which one it will take.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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Sin317
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DXWarlock
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Sin317
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| Posted: Fri, 5th Oct 2012 00:02 Post subject: |
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i agree on one thing. One day we all die and there isnt anything we can do about it (unless we can transfer our conciousness into a hard drive hehe).
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