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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 02:47 Post subject: |
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Naw dude, ur missing the point of what ive been saying
and I suspect ur arguing simply cuz u dislike me which is fine
I agree with being warned or having it edited out of post or whatever, but one person's opinions should not matter in this sense. If this is the way it goes here, next person who uses ANY TYPE of slang term in refernce to anyone about their nationallity deserves to be banned...which is rediculous obviously and that is my point...I suspect she had other reason's which I have stated numerous times, so if u have any questions, read my previous posts please.
I dont want to argue with u cuz it doesnt concern u or anyone else frankly, except the mods/ops, Jenni and myself - since Fisk cleared up his part which ive thanked him for
I wish, come to think of it, that i'd have wrote what i did initally and sent it pmed to all concerned ppl...but whats done is done, and since my banning and all that was done publicly i still feel justified in my actions
All i want is a reply from Jenni giving me a) an apology b) an explanation....and Jenni, i dont care if u do have something against me, or my spiritual beliefs but tell me what they are since u acted against them...if anything u happen to believe is wrong or misguided, maybe I can help in correcting them. I understand we have a personallity conflict which is fine, thats life, but when it goes to prejudice from that, I want to know why as I did not provoke or incite you in any fashion.
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 03:02 Post subject: |
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You use a racist term and expect me to apologise. Get real for gods sake. You were racist and you were caught. I followed the board rules and I banned you.
Simple as that.
Nothing personal and nothing through spite. I banned you because you deserved it.
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 04:56 Post subject: |
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A "racist term"? Seriously.
Did the racists suddenly patent dozens of words/shortened words in the vocabulary?
So where does the word become racist?
Is it OK to write: "Pakista" ?
Or "Pakist"?
Perhaps the evil all starts at "Pakis" ?
What happens if that was just a typo of "Paris"?
Hmm... is "Pak" allowed then?
"Hey! I hate these PAK-files"
OMG! Quake is no longer allowed, because someone decided to make a racist out of everyone that used the PAK-extension!
---
SERIOUSLY!
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 05:00 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | You use a racist term and expect me to apologise. Get real for gods sake. You were racist and you were caught. I followed the board rules and I banned you.
Simple as that.
Nothing personal and nothing through spite. I banned you because you deserved it. |
Thank you for comfirming what I have said. Ur biased and obviously let ur prejudices influence ur decisions and duties as a mod. Maybe objectivity isnt in ur vocabulary...I dunno
TO THE OPS:
Do you want this kinda of modding here at Nforce? I mean, even when SHE offends someone, she feels she doesnt need to apologize? Hmmm, seems to me we have a woman on a power trip here who clearly discrimates those who have conflicting view points and conflicting religious beliefs...same as using a racial slur against me in my view. I have suggested various options that could have been taken aside from the childish path Jenni chose and obviously, she choses to retain her ignorance. It is clear, in most places besides the UK, paki isn't a racist term - she can't even acknowledge her mistake and admit she should have approached things in a different way. And to be clear then, does this incident imply the fact that UK culture is applied to banning practices by mods or just UK mods? Or are all mods allowed to ban ppl based on personal feelings, biased opinions and the like? Im not trying to sound sarcastic, I am really interested in what you, the Admins have to say about this.
And by apology I mean, something like the following:
I apologize for banning u, as I took it as a racial slur and I thought others might. In the future I will try to be more objective when it comes to reading the comments of others
Is that too much to ask for? Seems Jenni lacks the maturity to handle a position as a moderator, here at Nforce anyhow, imo. Espeically in the sense that I approached this issue in the utmost respectful, adult-like mannor, where as Jenni, as clearly demonstrated by her posts, hasn't.
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Griffon
Banned
Posts: 1875
Location: Belarus
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 06:08 Post subject: |
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| Griffon wrote: | Don't bother Syco, Jenni will never appologize, even when she knows she's wrong...
LOL @ fisk, PAKs!!!  |
Well, atleast the thoughts of the admins and such and some kinda reprimand is in order i think. Any general visitor or non mod person would have consequences takin against them for racial slurs, religious discrimination etc She herself gave reason that she should be atleast temp-banned as I was
And i really want the Admins views on objectivity and its place here at Nforce...seriously. |
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The Rat
Banned
Posts: 655
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 06:09 Post subject: |
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A few years ago I had the exact same convo with a Brit friend of mine.
In the UK it seems the Pakistani community is much more vocal and will, as my friend described, likely punch you in the face if you used the term Paki.
In Canada the Pakistani community is rather quiet and would be less likely to be angry. We generally are a nation of immigrants so there are loads of visible minorities. Perhaps I would have a different opinion if I was a Pakistani-Canadian but I have never seen a fight or argument over the use of the word.
The term Paki is only racist depending how you use it. Paki is simply a short form of Pakistani just like Canuck is short for Canadian. Jap is short for Japanese. IMHO a short version of a person's nationality is not offensive.
People are reacting to the anger behind the sentence rather than the words themselves. Yes, sometimes people are over-sensitive.
Should I be banned for shortening the word "British" to just Brit in my top sentence of this post? We love to shorten long words because we are lazy. Just food for thought. Not trying to take sides or stick my nose into a decision made my a moderator.
Just a Canuck's opinion 
| kirkblitz wrote: | | You attack other people constantly for not loving blacks or asians or whatever. YOU are the most hateful of us all, you sit there and preach hate toward people who dont like diversity |
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 06:15 Post subject: |
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I think there is a larger issue now Rat
in respect to being a decent, mature person and admitting when ur wrong and leaving it at that and acting like a person on a power trip...
I mean really, if I say to someone, ur my nigga...that could be taken as racism by someone or not. Now, if I say said that to you, and some ppl pmed Jenni, or other mods/admins complaining, lets say 3+ ppl, then yeah, they should pm me and temp ban because the majority or enough ppl took it offensively for whatever reason...but nothing of the sort was done. Thats the reason why i think its a personal dislike and bias rather than she took it a racist. But either which way u choose to look at, Objectivity comes into play...and it bothers me that a simple apology cant be given..that just adds to the fact that i think she comes up short when it comes to being a mod
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 06:30 Post subject: |
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She doesn't care that you aren't a racist SycoShaman :/
It's rather silly how you can call people "idiots", "retards", "dumb", "ignorant", etc. on this forum (it occurs so frequently, the words have become about as meaningful as a small stone stuck in your shoe on a walk at the beach). But when you use the short for Pakistani in a neutral context, you're banned for racism.
There's no real thought behind this decision, at all.
If it had been a derogatory context, from a user who frequently had slandered a certain culture - I could've understood the decision.
This is just out of the blue, and actually quite fucking silly.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 08:27 Post subject: |
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Syco, have you not considered that because the term Paki is okay in Canada, does not mean it's okay in other parts of the world?
If a person of Pakistani origin from the UK came onto the board, they would be offended by that terms use.
I'll post the rules that I as a mod follow.
ALL MEMBERS
Immediate PermBans
Requesting...Dont Edit their Req. Put (NO REQUESTS) then Close it.
Racism...Edit (NO RACISM) Close it.
So in other words both you and Griffon could have been banned totally and never to come back.
Actually I would like to see an admin backing me up on this issue.
Just for you Syco:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2993908.stm
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 08:57 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | Syco, have you not considered that because the term Paki is okay in Canada, does not mean it's okay in other parts of the world?
If a person of Pakistani origin from the UK came onto the board, they would be offended by that terms use.
I'll post the rules that I as a mod follow.
ALL MEMBERS
Immediate PermBans
Requesting...Dont Edit their Req. Put (NO REQUESTS) then Close it.
Racism...Edit (NO RACISM) Close it.
So in other words both you and Griffon could have been banned totally and never to come back.
Actually I would like to see an admin backing me up on this issue. |
"If a person of Pakistani origin from the UK came onto the board, they would be offended by that terms use.
I'll post the rules that I as a mod follow."
So u confirm exactly what ive said....and I don't believe NFORCE follows UK law. And I don't believe ur allowed to make up rules on the fly based on ur national laws because u feel like it...really, in every response u make, u keep confirming what I am saying.
And again, I work with alot of Paki's and none are offended by the term whatsoever...its like calling someone from Newfoundland, Canada a Newfie, its called SHORT FORM. But, since a few would be upset, I can see ur train of thought. But now let me add to it. I know ppl who would find it racist if u called them a canuck, which u have. I know ppl who would find it racist if u called them a Yankee, which also have done. Do u see where I am going with this? Ur arguement is not valid AT ALL. Unless u plan on temp-banning everyone who uses a slang term for someone's nationallity? Is this what u plan to do? Is that written in the rules that govern Nforce or the UK Morality Code? Lots of ppl gunna disappear I'd say...
its not offensive here as in Canada and alot of other places...hence the reason i said if anyone was offended and complained, by all means. Not to mention the fact judging by the thread, most agree with me..doesnt that tell u something? and just because in ur country its racist, doesnt give u the right to impose ur views and such on me....hence objectivity...jesus christ...i actually thought u'd be able to handle this in a mature fashion but I guess i was completely wrong
Ur acting like a user who has the power to ban ppl and in the way u respond to an inquiry...great job
But I do agree an Admin should get involved.
EDIT: I just noticed ur link Jenni...and I could careless because Nforce is NOT THE UK - maybe I should show u a blank canadian news page eh? Signifying we dont consider it racist therefore there is no big drama and no coverage...lol
Last edited by SycoShaman on Sun, 24th Jul 2005 09:01; edited 2 times in total |
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SycoShaman
VIP Master Jedi
Posts: 24468
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 08:59 Post subject: |
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| fisk wrote: | She doesn't care that you aren't a racist SycoShaman :/
It's rather silly how you can call people "idiots", "retards", "dumb", "ignorant", etc. on this forum (it occurs so frequently, the words have become about as meaningful as a small stone stuck in your shoe on a walk at the beach). But when you use the short for Pakistani in a neutral context, you're banned for racism.
There's no real thought behind this decision, at all.
If it had been a derogatory context, from a user who frequently had slandered a certain culture - I could've understood the decision.
This is just out of the blue, and actually quite fucking silly. |
Yes, my thoughts exactly man. |
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 09:06 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | | Syco, have you not considered that because the term Paki is okay in Canada, does not mean it's okay in other parts of the world? |
And how should we know wich word has a racial meaning in what part of the world, english is not my mother tongue... so it's impossible to consider the whole world and every slang while posting. I didn't know that brit is a racial remark for example... i mean there are racial remarks wich are international understood like "nigger"... but paki... i have never heard that word.
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MAD_MAX333
Moderator
Posts: 7020
Location: Toronto, Canada...eh
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 09:32 Post subject: |
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i already told SycoShaman, and I’ll tell all you other people living in Canada... the word paki IS a racist comment... it might be just a short version of the word Pakistani or whatever but in our society is has come to be a racist term... PLAIN AND SIMPLE....
i could care LESS if you think it should or shouldn't be a racist comment it is understood among the law enforcement, the government and all that it is a racist term... i WONDER why all news channels went NUTS over bush saying the word pakis on TV....
with that said SycoShaman, your post was putting the workers of Rogers down, ( yes i agree half of them don't know what’s going on) but you said things that could easily be taken as racist.... here are a few examples:
"anyway, my FUCKIN PIECE OF SHIT cable company says I have to pay $35 bucks for some fucking paki to come out and fix it for me"
sadly i had removed the rest of the comments so i can’t recall them off the top of my head... but that is that...
i KNEW it was a BAD post, i suggested deleting the thread and PMing u with the warning... but Jenni was faster...
that should settle any problems you folks have with racial terms... PAKI is a racial term, nigger is a racial term.... the context SycoShaman used it was RACIST....
we can argue the punishment part but to me the racist part is clear... now i am sure SycoShaman is NOT racist and could get along with Pakistanis just fine, however it could possibly offend anyone who is from Pakistan who happens to read it.
and no i would ban anyone if they said "you ma nigger" as a joke or whatever... but if they said "those fucking niggers are all over the place" that is ban...
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 10:27 Post subject: |
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In the very first month I was in Toronto, September, 1967, (I had gone to Montreal first, in July) the young white woman at the cigarette counter downtown said to me, "You don't speak English well" when I asked for a Rothmans and she gave me a Du Maurier instead. I looked at her and felt like telling her off. But I checked this impulse because my reply would have carried an edge of insult if I had told her that I was a journalist who made his living by writing in English and much more.
In Willowdale near the old Canada Trust building on Yonge Street, a white teenager shouted at me as I parked my car, "Hey, Paki, what you're doing?" I just gave him a look of contempt that he deserved. The Paki slur had become a disease in the late 70's and early 80's.
So the term you used isn't racist in Canada eh Syco?
http://www.colaco.net/1/BenGoaDiaspora.htm
You're wrong, dead wrong infact.
Be thankful I didn't ban you permanently.
If I followed the rules by the book, both you and Griffon wouldn't be posting here now.
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 10:50 Post subject: |
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So in other words Jenni, you don't do your job as a mod properly and failry deciding when to or when not to follow the book.....
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The Rat
Banned
Posts: 655
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 12:10 Post subject: |
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If Paki and Jap are a slur then where do we stop? Is calling someone a Brit a slur? Is calling someone a Canuck or an Aussie a slur?
I guess the best way to judge its use is to view the word in context:
1) was it meant in a negative way?
2) Was the mentioning of the person's nationality really needed? Was it mentioned only for insult purposes?
One thing I did find interesting recently in the World Headlines forums was a user called Chinese and Japanese people "chink" and not a single moderator said anything. Since it wasn't aimed at anyone directly I guess it passed the "acceptable use" policy? 
| Quote: | | nah in britain (where i live) we have always called them asian.... not being offencive but i have never heard a chinese or japanese person being called anything but chink and they even made the chink society in my old school where a bunch of orientals hang out. |
Also acceptable in this forum it appears is the use of the term "gay" as an insult. Some forms of discrimation are allowed it seems
Lol, just playing devil's advocate. I think the moderator's are doing a smashing job here. This kind of website attracts some very undesirable people and they do a good job keeping the peace. ISOnews' forum is a hotbed of racism and flaming for example.
| kirkblitz wrote: | | You attack other people constantly for not loving blacks or asians or whatever. YOU are the most hateful of us all, you sit there and preach hate toward people who dont like diversity |
Last edited by The Rat on Sun, 24th Jul 2005 12:52; edited 1 time in total
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vortex66
Posts: 629
Location: Døñ't løøk ßåçk
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 12:30 Post subject: |
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this should belong in the The Useless Void, cuz it's too dumb to put it somewhere else.
if people can't admit they are wrong then the discussion will never end.
HOODLUM - Definite Supremacy
Last edited by vortex66 on Sun, 24th Jul 2005 13:33; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 13:28 Post subject: |
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| MAD_MAX333 wrote: |
"anyway, my FUCKIN PIECE OF SHIT cable company says I have to pay $35 bucks for some fucking paki to come out and fix it for me"
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Sorry syco, but the context you used the term 'paki' in does appear slightly racist to me aswell.
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TheSaint
Dalai Lama
Posts: 6586
Location: Cook Islands
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 14:04 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | | Syco, have you not considered that because the term Paki is okay in Canada, does not mean it's okay in other parts of the world? |
Well obviously he didn't know how 'serious' this was and didnt mean it the way you took it. A PM and an edit woulda been much better than the temp ban. |
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[sYn]
[Moderator] Elitist
Posts: 8374
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 14:15 Post subject: |
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| Jenni wrote: | | Syco, have you not considered that because the term Paki is okay in Canada, does not mean it's okay in other parts of the world? |
We're not in "other parts of the world" we're on the internet. Just by doing a google search for "paki" you get the following results:
http://www.paki.com - Paki - Its all About being Pakistani
Paki.com - Pakistani Portal Site. ... For Paki's in North America. Namaz / Prayer Time Reminder, mosque locator. Send money directly to Pakistan from your ...
www.pakirecipes.com/ - PakiRecipes, Pakistani recipes and cooking collection
Recipes posted by internet users, with food news, views, discussion, tips and tricks.
http://www.pakisearch.net - Paki Search
Pakistani search engine. Listing by categories. Top rated, newly listed and editors picks. Your search for Pakistan stops here.
www.shahid247.com/ - Suspect Paki
Well, I'm not doing the bombing, and neither is any other paki. ... Killing a paki is not a hate crime. Killing a paki is a service to the country. ...
(please note this is the journal of a Pakistani in London, he uses the word paki about 20 times in one post )
www.pakimp3.org/ - Pakimp3.org - Home of Pakistani Mp3 Music download paki mp3
Welcome to the Pakimp3.org your onestop destination to quality music. We have tons of songs for download. So stop by and check us out.
I dont think I need to go on. I agree that I would see what was said as a racist remark, but that is not whats on judgement here. Do mods talk about bans? Is there ANY communication at all? It seems that half the time other mods dont know what's going on, maybe you guys need to work together to make choices then shit like this wouldnt be needed and wouldnt happen.
Something like:
Mod feels person breaks rules which need a ban..
Mod temp bans for 1 day, e-mails said person telling them why and letting them know they're awaiting a mod concensus decision on the period of the ban.
Mods deliberate (say, you need 3 agree'ing mod statements), person is banned for said amount of time agree'ed and user is again notified.
If user complains it can be ignored because you know that more than 1 person made the decision, and any real concerns should be sent to an admin.
Seems to me like this would stop bitching
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drakgon
Posts: 1167
Location: England
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fisk
Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 17:47 Post subject: |
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Well, face it. This forum is _not_ a democracy.
I just think it's a bit ridiculous.
Ah well, whatever.
Yes, yes I'm back.
Somewhat.
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 18:50 Post subject: |
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| rockma wrote: | | So in other words Jenni, you don't do your job as a mod properly and failry deciding when to or when not to follow the book..... |
You're right. I hate banning people. I probably have the least perm bans of any mod. This is a great board and I was honoured to be asked to help moderate it. But nevertheless I do have to ban people. I think his term was racist and it was certainly used in a racist context. Therefore I banned him.
I did the same with Griffon and I got all this crap the last time.
Would you really want to post on a forum which has no rules.
No, because if that was to happen the site would be closed quicker than ever.
When I ban people, I protect the forum and site, rather than to punish people. |
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 18:56 Post subject: |
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You can spin things in both ways, as not having a consistence in following/enforcing rules makes it more of a personal matter of yours to ban people. And it does not matter how glad you were when you accepted because it does not mean what so ever that you are doing a good job in being a mod.
I am posting in a forum where rules are enforced whenever a mod wants : )
Hmmmmm oh well.
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Jenni
Banned
Posts: 9526
Location: England.
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 19:33 Post subject: |
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But rockma I don't read every post.
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| Posted: Sun, 24th Jul 2005 20:01 Post subject: |
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My bad, oh well, forum is most of the time working well and its not like that head-fi.org with elrodtom or other mods closing loads of threads.
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i am pretty sure you could have found a better example...... there are lots of ppl calling americans yankee's in the world forum area.
